Questions Re: ATF position on pistol grip 'shotguns'

From my own interpretation and experience, I would say it's whatever the ATF and local law enforcement decides, as with ANY laws. Some states may have no real enforcement, but one small town in Nebraska might find the local news riddled with some story about a "dastardly evil man" who has "conspired to harm others" with some vague "destructive device".

I own the same shotgun with pistol grip -I also have the attachable buttstock and slug barrel if I choose to use those. These laws don't make sense, and they don't have to. The plan is to criminalize EVERYTHING they can in incremental fashion until only the FED has the weapons and the serfs blindly OBEY.

Perhaps others on the forum can elaborate about the "particulars" of the "law" on this issue. I for one, have already opted to expect the worst to come.

 

As an FFL, for many years, I have watched ATF get themselves into legal Hot Water, many times, with conflicting Rules, and Opinions. The basic Rule on Shotguns, becoming Destructive Devices, is if you have a barrel length LESS than 18 inches. This Pistol Grip deal, will likely never make it into a Court of Law, considering the SCOTUS Heller and Chicago Rulings, making 2ND Amendment, a PERSONAL Right, and the Law of the LAND, in ALL States and Territories. In Heller, they held that Self-Protection was a VALID reason to own a Firearm, and changing from a ButtStock, to a PistolGrip, does not substantially change the function of the weapon in question. If you really want to be ABSOLUTELY Safe, just get a 20Ga. with a PistolGrip, 18" Barrel, and extended Mag. and you will be under the 1/2" bore, of this new Opinion.

 

Seems I read somewhere that not only barrel length, but overall length determines legality. Gotta meet the minimums for both, or hot water results (if found out.) That would put the collapsible stock in question, would it not? (Can't imagine the pistol grip being a problem, but that's just me.)

 

It's all about as valid as Rumsfeld and crew calling out Hussein for owning weapons of mass destruction when all he had were a few bottles of bleach for cleaning the crapper.

We KNOW we are being conned, and it's just as legitimate as any other alphabet agency operating under colorable law and maritime rule; as unconstitutionality dates back to the inception of illegality, the entire system turns out to be one big mafia pyramid scheme, complete with smoke and mirrors to fascinate the mundane and embolden the tyrant. The bottom line is this: how much more will the people take before we reach a melting point?

 

Also, my mossy 500 has an 18" barrel and is 28+" overall if I set it up with the pistol grip. Looks to be well inside the requirements to not qualify as a "destructive device".

 

I have had zero experience with any folding stocks for a shotgun, so I can't be a help there. I have used them for rifles, especially the AK, and I can safely say that from MY experience, the folding stock is great when you have it packed away...but if you intend on carrying it in your hands or on your back, you had better have it unfolded and ready to be used or it will lose its primary purpose, which is to provide a cheek weld and shoulder rest so that proper aiming can be established. Since the AK is not nearly as effective at longer ranges as an M4 variant or especially the .308 (sorry guys, do the math; and I didn't mean to upset AK lovers, I own a couple and love them), I suggest that the user take every opportunity to utilize all accuracy capabilities if possible. SO, in short, a folding stock on an AK is BUST (but that is just my silly opinion). If it can be used successfully for a shotgun or not and still have a use, I don't know. Perhaps the "spray and pray" technique works well in the movies and perhaps for scaring the un-initiated to take cover...but, I will choose accurate fire over that avenue any day. Call me crazy.

 

Not to be a rebel but I decided to stop reading the fine print on what configurations I was granted the privilege to posses some time ago. It happened about the time I read this: "All laws which are repugnant to the Constitution, are null and void."

YMMV but I've made my choices based on the highest law of our land, which is also the Romans 13 Authority I recognize: The Constitution for the United Sates of America.

 

Well said Melbo I too am familiar with Am. Jurisprudence.

That stock looks kinda cool, Al...but I don't know which will break first -my wallet or my wrist! *ouch*

 

The OAL is what they got Randy Weaver on. The ATF informant got him to saw the barrels on two shotguns. He refused to saw them off beyond the 18" legal limit, so the stoolie gave him one that had the stock shortened, probably for a youth to use. When he sawed the barrel to the legal 18" limit it made the OAL 25 3/4". He lost his wife, son, and years of his life over 1/4" of missing wood.

 

That's a great point. Ruby ridge will never be forgotten.

 

Nor should it be B. I have had the priviledge to meet and visit with RW FTF on a handful of occasions and I can't describe to you the look of perpetual sorrow in his eyes.

Many of my closest friends are combat vets. Men who have seen death up close and personal, seen lives ended and ended lives. They have that fabled 1000 mile stare of a warrior but it is nothing compared to the agonised aura that Randy puts off.

To know that your decisions, your beliefs, while not directly responsible, but nonetheless contributed to the deaths of those you love the most. What a burden to bear.

So many on these boards go on about what they would do in this situation or that. The fact is that 99% would roll over, whimper, and lay down thier guns without ever firing a shot.

Mark Koernke is quoted as saying that if they outlawed guns tomorrow, and you would go to prison for owning one, then 9 out of 10 people would turn theirs in immediately.

There is a movement today called the 3%'s. I think they should knock a couple of bars off of that flag. I believe 1% is overestimated.

When it comes down to the lives of your loved ones, your children, are you prepared to stand your ground? Are you prepared to defend your rights? Will you stand in the gap or will you stand aside?

Many who refused to stand aside were killed, or thier family members, while many others sit in federal prisons today. It is estimated that there are around 3100 people currently imprisoned for federal firearms violations. Many who stood up and refused to lick the boots of an unconstitutional law and it's enforcers.

Men like Bob Anderson who had the gall to make and sell a .50 bmg rifle as an 80% kit. Bypassing federal infringements on the 2nd amendment. Hollis Wayne Fincher who took a stand and produced a well researched paper on the unconstitutionality of fedeal laws. People who become to vocal in their opposition are silenced. Mark Koernke served every day of a 7 year sentence because he refused to admit he had done anything wrong. 11 survivors of the Waco massacre, after being found not guilty of any crime in state court were arrested leaving the court house and sit today in federal prison for "gun law violations".

G. Gordon Liddy said at a pro gun rally in Washington in the early 90's that any law that violated the constitution is no law at all so "just don't obey the damned law." But I would add that if you don't you should be prepared to stand your ground no matter what. You must be willing to face the consequences.

Too many I believe, don't have the courage to stand in the gap. It's all talk on an anonymous internet site but when it comes down to the jackboots kicking down your door there aren't too many who are willing to risk that. They will roll over and lick the boot that leaves the footprint on the face of humanity.
　
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