I've been re-evaluating my my SHTF guns and I need some professional opinions. I have an AR-15, a 308 bolt gun with a CDI 10 shot mag, a S/G, and two pistols, a 1911 and a Buck Mark micro. A lot to carry, plus BOB and Tac vest. Would it be better to trade in the .308 rifle on an AR-10? Here are my possible solutions. AR-15, S/G, pistols AR-10, S/G, pistols AR-15, AR-10, S/G, pistols With the accuracy of a DPMS .308, it would still be a good game getter, and battle rifle. The bolt gun with a bull barrel would be just as heavy as the AR-10, and not as fast on a follow up shots. Decisions, Decisions
I have given up on trying to convince anyone anything about calibers or actions or manufacturers. That said, my DPMS AR-10 is one sweet shooting accurate rapid fire rifle. JMHO..... others may disagree. . ps: I am partial to the .308 Win. and do not own a .223 **** update added to post 15 Aug. 2014**** I just got a new like on this post, and in all fairness and honesty I must say, I now own 2 AR-15's. One off the rack, and one a custom build. Additionally I am in the progress of 3 AR builds from stripped receivers and completion kits, plus a few add on parts. I recognize the usefulness of having a number of rapid firing, lightweight, potent, patrol rifles suitable easily for women and teens, and the 35 cents a round for reloadable quality milspec ammo doesn't hurt either. I still love a couple of my .308s for long range area denial, but have learned to accept the .223/5.56mm and give it due credit.
AR-10 is king. Not just for its versatility, but for the shear fact that it can reach out and kill your target far more effectively than an AR-15 platform. Of course, mileage varies, and the high end REPR types tend to make me very excited... YouTube - Yankeeprepper's Channel
Thanks for the input. As proved in the Middle East, the .308 out performs the .223 in range and knockdown power. More rounds to take out a target equals more wear, and more chance of giving away your position too. An AR-10, a S/G and two pistols, a 1911 and a .22 is all I can carry!
if you are bugging out you need to think weight... if you have to carry 5 weapons you will be limiting your self to how many other items you can carry... AR-10 = approx 9 lbs AR- 15 6.5 lbs 1911 = 2.5 lbs buck mark micro =2 lbs mossberg 500a 12 = 7.25 lbs remington 700 in .308 = 7.25 lbs this does not include ancillary equipment... (magazines, scopes., bipods, etc) I don't know how far you are going and if any of it is walking... if you walk figure on 50lbs max weight if you aren't currently doing pratice ruck runs...2 pistols and a s/g are around 11 lbs or a 20% of your weight allowance without ammo... add a rifle and you have around 40% of your allowable weight in iron without ammo... I would reccommend caching most of your weapons at a final location so you and carry the other needed supplies to get you where you are going... Mobility is going to be the watch word if TSHTF and you have to bug out... If you cache weapons weight choice becomes patrol load 120 rnds of MBR ammo and a .22 with a 100 rnds... 5.56 is lighter than .308 but terrain is a factorlong flatr open areas an AR-10 is best... brushy areas with less than 200 yrds range or urban areas an ar-15 is a better choice... just my thoughts...
.308 makes a fine BR. I would argue that 5.56 wins in terms of parts availability. I went with both and quit trying to justify by what I can carry. There are different roles for different guns and having caches is about your only choice on the move. Bugging in, of course, is preferred. I would say you need to get down to 2x long guns and 1x handgun for real mobility. If there is doubt, try carrying the various ammo for four completely different guns.... craziness. Or else, abandon this "this or that" philosophy and cover all your bases. Worst case scenario, you at least have choices. Having humped a .308 BR before with a full battle load, I'd say that ammo weight is a consideration. On top of weapon weight. The .308 only rules where you expect a long engagement. A heavier bullet in 5.56 will also fill the same role. What wins HP matches these days...? If you have no real ability or the environment doesn't support shooting past 600M, go with 5.56. Most* combat engagements are less than 200M (the majority are around 100M). .308 advocates don't like to hear that, but the statistics support it. Research the SEAL Recce Carbines or the SAM-R. A lot of people have been killed at long ranges with the right 5.56 weapon and the know how. Here is such an engagement with some Blackwater dudes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDoX8UnQ4D0&feature=related It may sound like I am harping on 5.56 only. Everyone else jumped on the .308 bandwagon, so I had to play devil's advocate. I own 2x AR10s. I will be throwing up a post soon on an AR10 carbine. I am working the weight v. accuracy issues. I think I have it solved with a new SS tube and a FF rail. Look for the thread soon.
You have to add dangerous game into it, we don't just have white tail deer here. Wanna face a Grizzly with that 556 ? or wolves or cougars or Wolverines? etc beside the 2 legged ones here packing mag hunting rifles shooting long range ?
Bushmaster AR-10 in .308 is nice for the price. Buying a new one soon...Going to have to name it AT&T, I'll use it when I want to "Reach out, reach out and touch someone..." +1 Quig's post. 5.56 does not have the power to stop a ganked off bear it'll just gank the bear off more. On top of that it'll just rub a wolf's rhubarb the wrong way, let alone cause a serious ruckus with two legged vermin.
Good post. I have an AR-10 but also an AR-15 and Ak-47 as well as various shotguns. What you say about 200M range I absolutely believe. In a survival situation I would argue the range will shrink even further to 100M for most folks. A good compromise is an AR-10 carbine. One of my family members recently got one and installed a Daniel Defence free float rail on it. With an EO Tech and a RICOH tactical foregrip/light it is one hell of a versatile weapon.
Thanks for the info, look forward to seeing some pics. I live in the suburbs but the 'spot' is in the country. The AR-15 would be great in town, and my Bushy M4A3 get one inch groups at 100 yds. Maybe I ought to drop some tubes at the 'spot', if I can get there, I'll have a .308 bolt too. I'm not a young man anymore, trying to keep the load light and mobile. White tails are medium size here, and a .223 spitting 62 gr SP's would take one. I'll keep thinking on it.
Texas has problems with feral dogs (worse than wolves as they kill just to kill, not just to eat), coyotes, Mexican Wolves (thanks to a reintroduction program by those damn hippy tree huggers), cougars ("Mountain Lions" - Texas is the only state with a recognized "viable" population of cougars), bobcats, and some regions have bears (black), and gators. Not included in this list are armed Mexican Drug Cartel Members, who are a cross between a richard cranium and a rabid rattlesnake. Texas wildlife runs the gamut of many different ecological regions because the state is just HUGE.
Don't forget the huge wild cattle in the Brazos river area. They would laugh at a .308 or a .223, just like a Cape Buffalo would. .338 win mag, or .375 HH would be better medicine for them.
I have been convinced that a bullet puker is going to be the best choice for the shtf situation. but the argument between 5.56 and 7.62 x 51 is a very valid one that has what made me stay away from the "black" guns overall. Now that being said I have had conversations with a few guys who know a heck of alot more than me and I think Im going towards a 6.8 spc rnd. No not as powerful as the 7.62 x 51, but yet more powerful than the 5.56. I went and picked up a dpms catalog at my local gun shop, i have targeted the panther 6.8 spc. It has a 20" barrel heavy barrel and 1 x 11 twist, and is made from 4140 chrome-moly steelthe rest of the weapon is made from 7075 forged aircraft aluminum alloy. The rifle comes with 2 25 round mags a sling and a cleaning kit. Empty it only weighs 9 lbs. so at times I have been hard headed, on what to get for my main firearm. I think I have made a good choice. I know I will have fun getting to "know" my new rifle, I will put as much ammo as I can Afford through it, so I can get used to it,and then get proficient with the rifle. I will clean it often just so I can also get better at tear down and assembly of the rifle. Now just wish me luck that I can get this rifle befor the excrement hits the rotary osscilator at very high speeds....................
Well, not to poo-poo on your idea, have you examined the fact that the most common rounds after TSHTF will be either the 5.56 or the .308/7.62? Replenishment of your ammo stock from forage is a definite must when considering a SHTF scenario. 9mm, .45 pistol ammo is extremely common (9 more so than .45), 12 gauge shotgun ammunition is extremely common, as are 5.56 and .308/7.62 rifle rounds. the 6.8 is not so common and may be nearly impossible to get your hands on post . No, I am not ignoring the fact that people can reload ammo. I am talking about raw, factory load availability; from which you can harvest brass post use (if you are still sucking air) to reload. 6.8 SPC rounds - 250 qty - 85 gr. Barnes TSX bulk packed - $250.00 7.62/.308 rounds - 150 qty - 168 gr. Sierra Bulk packed - $199.99 Both priced from Silver State Armory (factory 2nds - minor blemishes, etc) While on the surface the 6.8 SPC is cheaper (lighter, slower, shorter range etc.), what would the availability be post TSHTF?
Well being not as a common round as 5.56 or .308, I hope It will be on the shelves but I am planning on reloading what I not only already have on hand but also whatever I can get my hands on post shtf. my local shop is in process of ordering a truckload of various calibers including 5.56,.308,7.62x39, and 6.8 spc. He told me that in this particular area there are several guys that have purchased a 6.8 capable rifle and he told me even though the 5.56, .308, 7.62x39 are more popular, he would be keeping 6.8 in stock and plentiful in both factory and build your own including brass. He said he was getting a good deal on starline brass so he was ordering awhole lot of it. I mean this is northwest Iowa most guys whom buy the "black" rifle here it's 5.56, so hopefully he will have plenty of ammo for myself and the others that have 6.8 capable rifles.
I think 5.56 is viable for shooting deer size and below. Since we did add cape Buffalo, I guess you better add a magnum centerfire. I think we are up to 5 or 6 different weapons now [rofllmao] Seriously, it's not like SHTF is the same as ethical game hunting. I, too, am an ethical hunter during deer season. I use large caliber centerfires to drop game in a single shot. I don't think I would select my SHTF weapon with the same criteria. A man's gotta eat. I'll use ball, fire 5 rounds, whatever it takes to eat. Forgettitng the fact that I am on the same latitude, in a similar climate, with some of the same animals... as for the other various predatory animals that may or may not be present in Texas, it makes me wonder how man got along with black powder weapons in such a dangerous place. In fact, the majority of these predators were killed off with such weapons. The majority of outdoor enthusiasts spends weeks a year in the outdoors without a single encounter. You are more likely to be struck by lightening than you are to be mauled by a bear. I did celebrate the DOI change in handgun policy with everyone else and I never go into the mountains here without a large bore handgun, but I have enough sense and knowledge to "not" get into trouble with these animals. I suggest the same for SHTF. I did have a recent encounter with a mama bear and 2x cubs alone in the mountains. That does not change my choice of a 5.56 weapon as a primary SHTF caliber. If anything, it reinforced my thinking that avoidance is the best tactic. That bear wanted no more to do with me than I wanted to do with it and it ended nicely for both. *Most preadatory animals feel the same. It was a great time watching those cubs play- climbing up and down trees. (I was hunting with an AR10 at the time. .44 magnum on hip. If you do live in a spot where more dangerous animals are common, I suggest a big bore revolver be part of your kit. I would make it part of my EDC. Hell, mine is a part of my EDC.) ETA: Disciple, I understand your dilemma. I think F15 is right on. Foraging- wise, I would stick with a NATO caliber. 5.56 is slightly easier to find components for. I've skimped enough 5.56 brass off the range to last my lifetime of shooting. All free. As for 7.62, there are sources to purchase and LC brass is relatively cheap, but you generally have to pay for it. I find a bit of .308 brass around, but the cost means that most people aren't shooting volumes of it like they are for 5.56. I don't think that you will find 6.8 anywhere if TSHTF tomorrow. On the upside, you could have 2x uppers- 6.8 and 5.56. They utilize the same lower. My problem is that uppers turn eaily into new rifles I don't think that any of us can agree on the "best" caliber. Some are better than others, but that all depends on criteria. External ballistics, internal ballistics, cost, availability, foragability (is that a word?). Everyone rates these differently. The same starts to apply when we talk about platforms too. I think the overall answer is that any of these will actually do in the hands of a competent user with a brain In the end, it doesn't matter what you choose. If you practice, I wouldn't want to be downrange from you whether it be a .223, 6.8, or .308. I've yet to meet a "volunteer" that even remotely wanted to be shot by even a .22.
Just a NOTE, here on Bears... there are TWO kinds of Bears that folks have dealings with. Black Bears, and REAL Brown Bears. I say REAL as there are brown Black Bears, which are colored brown, but are of the Black Bear specie.These two species of Bears are totally different problems to deal with in the wild. More folks have encounters with Black Bears, than Brown Bears, by an order of magnitude. (10 to 1 or MORE) This is why more folks are mauled by Black Bears, than Brown Bears. Black Bears are mostly herbivores, unless they are in habitat that has a large fall fish population in shallow streams. This means YOU, as a human, are NOT in their normal Food Chain, and besides that you do NOT taste good, to salty. Black Bears run the same basic firmware, as the woodland chipmunk, with the exception that they have an Attack subroutine that is triggered when startled, and there is an aggressive bit set. (Momma with cubs, extreme hunger, or adolescent Male that just left Momma) If you spent any time watching Black Bears in the wild, you will see the similarities. The conclusion for Black Bear encounters, then is, make yourself KNOWN, to the animal from a distance, and 99 times out of a 100, it will decide to leave the area, and you should do the same in the opposite direction. Now Brown Bears run a totally different set of firmware, and they are CARNIVORES, plain and simple. They eat MEAT, whenever and where ever possible. You as a human, are MEAT, although you really do NOT taste good, you are still MEAT, on the hoof, and if nothing else is around, and the Bear is hungry, you are in the Food Chain. Brown bears have a Stalking subroutine that is VERY sophisticated, and they have significant intelligence to process sensory input when they are in that mode. Bears do NOT see very well, but they can smell you at distance up to a mile, from downwind, and have excellent hearing. One reason they stand up on their Hind Legs, is to identify something, with their limited eyesight, that has caused an interrupt in whatever mainline routine was running, at the moment by another sensory input. Brown bears have the same Startle subRoutine as the Black cousins, but the jump from their to the Attack subRoutine is a lot more direct, and they have their aggressive bit set ALL the time. So, if a Brown bear is encountered in CLOSE proximity, you need to try and make yourself as BIG as Possible, and easily identifiable, and hope he has more interesting food, on his mind. If at long range, and he is NOT in Stalking Mode, bypass him to his rear by as much distance as possible, and stay down wind. Be very watchful of your terrain, and do NOT get yourself into thick cover, as you will NOT see him coming should he go into Stalking Mode, if he gets that you are around. NO aggressive moves, and NEVER RUN from a Brown Bear, as he is a LOT faster than you are, an can easily run you down. Fortunately Brown Bears are not usually living in areas where humans live, or if they are, they end up DEAD. 90% of folks have never see a Brown Bear in the wild, other than the Jellystone Park kind, and they are NOT really wild. If you are Bugging Out, from a SHTF Event, to Brown Bear country, then you best have the means to deal with them, should they decide that you, or yours, will be their NEXT dinner. The same way you would deal with ANY hostile creature. .
