One In The Chamber?!

Discussion in 'Firearms' started by Yard Dart, Nov 21, 2018.


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  1. Yard Dart

    Yard Dart Vigilant Monkey Moderator

    Wyoming Bear Attack Glock had No Round in Chamber, Magazine & Pistol Separated

    [​IMG]
    Wyoming Bear Attack Glock had No Round in Chamber, Magazine & Pistol Separated
    U.S.A. -(Ammoland.com)- On Friday afternoon, the 14th of September, Mark Uptain, a hunting guide, and Corey Chubon, a bow hunter, were attacked by grizzly bears as they processed an elk carcass. Chubon had mortally wounded the elk with an arrow, the day before, but they had not recovered it before nightfall.

    They came back the next day and followed a good blood trail to the dead elk.

    They had nearly finished processing it when they were attacked by the grizzly bears. The attack started with a full out charge. Uptain was hit by the bear first, then Chubon, then the bear went back to Uptain. Chubon fled and survived, getting help.

    The investigations have nearly finished, and some questions have been answered. It was known that Mark Uptain's Glock 20 10 mm semi-automatic pistol was with the hunters' packs. People have wondered why the pistol was in a pack, where it did little good for defense from bears. The Glock 20 was the only firearm at the scene of the attack.

    [​IMG]
    Glock 20 Gen 4
    The pistol was not in a pack. Mark Uptain was wearing the Glock in a chest holster. He deliberately took off the pistol, took off his shirt, and placed both the pistol and his shirt near the two packs. Processing big game tends to be a bit messy. From wyofile.com:

    Before the two began field dressing the elk, “the guide removed an automatic pistol that he carried in a chest holster as well as his shirt and left them with the two men’s packs a short distance up the hill from the carcass…” OSHA wrote in its fatal alert.

    It seems unlikely that Chubon received any training about the Glock 20. When Uptain was attacked, Chubon was able to reach the Glock while the bear was engaged with Uptain. He was able to extract the pistol from the holster. He had time to shoot. He could not make the pistol fire. From wyofile.com:

    The bear hit Uptain as Chubon went for the pistol. “He said he had [the Glock],” Hovinga told WyoFile. “He had a hard time trying to find a clear shot.”

    Chubon tried to shoot the bear, Hovinga said. “He grabbed [the pistol], was unable to make it fire,” Hovinga said. “There was not a round in the chamber, so the gun was empty. He couldn’t make the gun work.”

    After hitting Uptain, the grizzly quickly turned and bit Chubon in the ankle.

    “He swung me around in the air,” Chubon told WKMG Television in Orlando, Florida, near where he lives. That’s when Chubon threw the pistol toward Uptain.

    It was “a matter of seconds” during which the bear attacked Uptain, turned on Chubon and then returned to further maul Uptain, Hovinga said.

    But the Glock, “it didn’t make to Mark [Uptain],” Hovinga said. “The hunter fled.”

    The report confirms speculation I made on September 24th, that there was no round in the chamber.

    The Glock pistol and the magazine were found in different places. It may be that Chubon activated the magazine release in an attempt to get the pistol to work.

    It is not unknown for someone unfamiliar with a pistol, trying desperately to get it to fire, to press the magazine release while attempting to deactivate a safety.

    In a case twelve years ago, a client had great difficulty removing a pistol from his guide's holster. Similar to this case, the pistol had been hung in a tree a bit away from the carcass, in that case, a moose, the client and guide were processing. The client was finally able to do extract the pistol from the holster. The grizzly bear stopped hunting the guide and came at him. He killed it with the pistol. The bear dropped only three feet from him.

    In the Wyoming case, after the bear left Uptain it attacked Chubon. Chubon, unable to make the pistol work, attempted to throw it to Uptain while Chubon was being mauled. It is unknown if Uptain was ever able to reach it. He had not reached it by the time Chubon fled to get help.

    With no round in the chamber and no magazine in the pistol, the Glock was rendered useless, if Mark Uptain ever got to it.

    Uptain had bear spray holstered on his hip. Chubon did not recall Uptain using the bear spray to the point where Chubon fled to get help. Uptain emptied the bear spray at some point during the fight. The 250-pound grizzly sow had evidence of bear spray on her. Mark Uptain was killed in spite of the bear spray.

    Carrying a semi-automatic pistol with an empty chamber is known as carrying in condition three, terminology used by the renowned gun writer, instructor, and competitor Col. Jeff Cooper. It is also known as “Israeli Carry”, because it is how Israeli soldiers are trained to carry semi-automatic pistols.

    It can work well if the user trains to always load a round from the magazine when the pistol is drawn from the holster. As a safety feature, if an untrained person accesses the pistol and tries to fire it, they may not know how to load a round into the chamber and can be stymied in their effort to fire the pistol.

    This is positive if the person accessing the pistol is an assailant. It does not work if the person accessing the pistol is trying to save your life.

    The bears had not found the elk before the hunters did. The attack was an aggressive charge without warning. People who witness an attack are often able to shoot the bear off of the person being attacked or to kill a bear that is mauling them. Pistols have been surprisingly effective at stopping attacks.

    Bear spray has also been credited with stopping attacks, but the research has been muddied by different criteria being used in bear spray and firearm research papers. Different criteria were used to select incidents in the bear spray and firearm studies. Comparing the studies is inappropriate. The study authors refuse to release their data.

    One problem with bear spray is it does not kill the bear. Most bears that attack humans are eventually killed. Killing them at the scene of their attack prevents further attacks. Bears that have been sprayed have been known to repeatedly come back.

    In the recent Wyoming case where Mark Uptain was killed, both bears were killed by investigators at the scene.

    Wyoming Bear Attack Glock had No Round in Chamber, Magazine & Pistol Separated

    Whether you are downtown on a Friday night or in the woods on a hunt, how many of you do not carry with a round in the chamber?! Might be best to change that strategy, and if needed, get better training to be comfortable carrying a loaded firearm.
     
    Yard Dart, Nov 21, 2018
    #1
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  2. duane

    duane Monkey+++

    Ultimate SHTF lesson. If you don't practice until it is automatic, have all the parts and spares and know how to use them, or don't have all the knowledge to do the operation and the things needed to do so , it might as well be a pile of rocks. If you are at a pro football game with 50,000 other people, 300 miles from your bug in location and 450 from your bug out location, and SHTF, you are most likely dead, just a matter of how long it takes to die. One is none, two is one, and hanging 30 feet away when the bear attacks, might as well still be in the gun store. I don't live in that area, but have no faith in bells, whistles, bear spray, etc, and would view any pistol as a last ditch attempt to stay alive when every thing else has failed. With the greens in control, wilderness areas expanding, etc, there is an ever greater area of the US where you may encounter dangerous game. Wolves, large bears, mountain lions, etc , are expanding their range an isolated members can now be found hundreds of miles from areas where they used to be found.
     
    duane, Nov 21, 2018
    #2
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  3. DKR

    DKR Raconteur of the first stripe

    10mm for a bear?
    My choice is 12GA 00 buckshot and slugs.

    Maybe better yet - an M-60!
     
    DKR, Nov 21, 2018
    #3
    Oddcaliber, Seepalaces, Zimmy and 4 others like this.
  4. Ura-Ki

    Ura-Ki Grampa Monkey

    I ALWAYS carry in condition 1, chamberd, hammer cocked, and safety on! Dosnt matter if it's urban or wilds! Having been involved with a large cougar mauling my Brother, even the pistol wasn't enough, I never even tried, went strait to my Rifle and fired a single round into it's skull! I have hunted some of the largest bears on earth, and have been charged several times, not once did I ever draw my pistol! One time I did managed to thumb the safety off, but I have ALWAYS had a rifle at hand! Even when dressing a kill, the rifle is loaded, chamberd, safety off and leaning on the carcass while I'm working. If I'm by my self, this is the best chance I have! If there is some one with me, then they have a rifle in hand, that's my rule!
    I live and hunt in large predator country, from the Grizzlies and Wolves, to Cougars, Coyoties, and even Wolverines, I am far from the top of the pecking order or predators, so I carry a rifle and a back up pistol, and a large Bowie knife as a final back up to ether should something go very wrong!
    There is no excuse to carrying a empty chamber, if you do, you may pay the price. Always practice, know the weapon(s) you carry and know how to make them work if they stop! Always have a back up and know how to use it as well! Most attacks happen in the blinlnof an eye, do you really want to risk those few seconds getting a gun up and ready to fire only to realise you have to chamber a round or deactivate a safety?
     
    Ura-Ki, Nov 21, 2018
    #4
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  5. oil pan 4

    oil pan 4 Monkey+++

    If I were in bear country I would carry my super redhawk.
    There's always one in the chamber and there's no safety.
    I would carry it in maine when I would go black berry picking.

    There maybe laws against having a big long gun when bow hunting.
    That's how Virginia was. If you were "bow hunting" and had a concealed carry permanent you were allowed to carry one hand gun, that's it. No long guns.
     
    oil pan 4, Nov 21, 2018
    #5
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  6. Ura-Ki

    Ura-Ki Grampa Monkey

    Oregon was like that for a while, both bow season and muzzle loader. You were allowed a rim fire and that's it! Now you can carry a pistol of any size with out issue! Colorado has no restrictions thankfully!
     
    Ura-Ki, Nov 21, 2018
    #6
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  7. oldman11

    oldman11 Monkey+++

    My 1911 stays at condition 1 at all times,if a revolver comes out of the safe it is loaded fully. I live in the country in Louisiana down a 1/2 mile dead end road off of a major four lane.My sisters house has already been robbed while she was gone.
     
    oldman11, Nov 22, 2018
    #7
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  8. AndyinEverson

    AndyinEverson Black Powder Monkey

    When I carry , my guns have :
    A round in the chamber...or are primed or capped.
    Excluding a cap and ball revolver , while all chambers are loaded...the nipple under the hammer is uncapped...Just how I would carry a Colt SAA or old style Ruger Blackhawk.

    Most of my firearms do not have a mechanical safety...other than a "half cock notch".
    To keep myself and others safe while carrying or handling any gun I keep it simple:
    Finger off the trigger until I am ready to shoot...
    Muzzle discipline...
    And if crossing dangerous terrain while hunting , I will un-prime / un-cap or if a modern rifle or shotgun , take the round out of the chamber...
    Simple and safe.
    Andy
     
    AndyinEverson, Nov 22, 2018
    #8
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  9. arleigh

    arleigh Goophy monkey

    Most black powder revolvers have a rest spot between rounds the hammer can reside while not in use absolutely safe fully loaded .
    Even my early Ruger .44 mag I drop the hammer between rounds and is perfectly safe fully loaded.
    Late model revolvers have a transfer bar so it is not necessary to drop the hammer between rounds .
    The story is a repeat of a similar one told in Alaska ,back in the 30s or 40's the partner did not know how to use the gun and both were torn up pretty bad .
    Arrogance and assumption allow these things to happen ,no one thinks it can happen to them after all I'm super man right ?
    I had a mountain lion jump on the trail just a few feet ahead of me . he just as easily dropped on me . I don't go any where in the wood with out my full size bowie knife and my guns fully ready to dance.
     
    arleigh, Nov 22, 2018
    #9
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  10. AndyinEverson

    AndyinEverson Black Powder Monkey

    Many do indeed...but doing so in my experience can lead to timing issues or excessive wear on some parts.
    I will not use the "rest spot" on my Cap and ball revolvers , original or replica in any event...as always others may do as they wish....
    Andy
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2018
    AndyinEverson, Nov 22, 2018
    #10
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  11. hot diggity

    hot diggity Monkey+++ Site Supporter+++

    I always have a round in the chamber, and with the exception of the 1911, my carry pieces have no manual safety. (DAO or single action) I always thought of a hammer and trigger as safety enough.

    NC gets a little silly with CCW while hunting. I know one hunter who initially got his CCW so he wouldn't be ticketed for carrying his .44 Magnum bear gun out of the weather in a shoulder holster under his jacket. Visibility in most woods around here is less than 15 yards in the day time. Climbing down from the tree stand after the sun has set and hearing noises in the brush is no fun. I whistle and talk to myself loudly in the woods after dark. The bears don't mind, and I never know when there's another hunter thinking I'm a bear.
     
    hot diggity, Nov 22, 2018
    #11
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  12. Ura-Ki

    Ura-Ki Grampa Monkey

    It's intresting the discussion on B.P. pistols, I have been carrying a pair of Old Army Rugers lately, they have a half dock notch that is super positive and holds the hammer off the primers quite well! I have been practicing my draw and thumbing of the hammers as part of the draw, so far it has proven quite easy to do repeatabley every time and that gives me 12 rounds of pretty hot .44 cal stopping power! Using my Colt 230 gr molds for the revolving rifles seems to be the best combo I have found for both pistols and light loads for the Rifles! Even for a large Grizz, I would have no issue with these!
    For more modern carry, especially a combo of urban carry, the 10 MM auto is my go to, exceptional power and capacity in a semi auto is impossable to beat, and my back up is ether a compact double stack .45 apc or its twin in 9 MM!
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2018
    Ura-Ki, Nov 22, 2018
    #12
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  13. UncleMorgan

    UncleMorgan I like peeling bananas and (occasionally) people.

    Using a firearm should be a two-step process: point & pull.
     
    UncleMorgan, Nov 22, 2018
    #13
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  14. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    When I do carry, around the neighborhood, it is usually due to unruley Bears, noted as being in the area... I carry my S&W M29 8” in a cross chest holster, and the Stainless Winchester Marine 1300 Shotgun w/Extended Tube Mag... Mostly these are for my own reasurrance, and only rarely have they ever come into play, in the last Thirty Years... My FlatLand carry is my Belgian Browning HiPower 9mm in a shoulder rig under my Jacket, and that has never been in play in my 50 years of carrying it... AlaskaChick has her Dan Wesson Stainless .357 Magnum that resides in a custom holdster, on top of the Fridge in the kitchen, sports a 6” barrel, and lives in an unlocked case behind the Drives seat, in the 2006 White Toyota 4X4 Pickup... When she did carry on her person, she would mount the 2” barrel, and keep it in her shoulder carried Purse, along with a Pair of Speed Loaders... We both have had Washington State Carry Permits for many Decades, and no Permit is required in Alaska, because it is a Constitutional Carry State...
     
    BTPost, Nov 23, 2018
    #14
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  15. sec_monkey

    sec_monkey SM Security Administrator

    sec_monkey, Nov 23, 2018
    #15
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  16. oldman11

    oldman11 Monkey+++

    I had a black bear get in my watermelon patch this year,electric fence did not stop him. First one here in my lifetime and I’m 75.
     
    oldman11, Nov 23, 2018
    #16
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  17. oil pan 4

    oil pan 4 Monkey+++

    Yeah they hate bears in maine.
    Every hunting license has a bear tag, maine is the only state where you can hunt bear with bait, trap and dog.
    It came up on referendum to change bear hunting laws about 6 years ago.
    They voted it down in flames to to tune of a little more than 75% no to less than 25% yes.
     
    oil pan 4, Nov 23, 2018
    #17
    Zimmy likes this.
  18. Meat

    Meat Monkey+++

    I don’t carry one in the chamber myself but I’m re-thinking it.
     
    Meat, Nov 23, 2018
    #18
  19. hot diggity

    hot diggity Monkey+++ Site Supporter+++

    I ran some backwards (Safe) Tueller drills at the range with Marines. I'd have the "bad guy" put his hand on the shooters shoulder. As soon as the shooter felt the hand lift from his shoulder he'd begin his draw and try to make a shot. As he's doing this the "bad guy" took off toward a fence a little more than 25' away (Tueller uses 21'). As soon as he reached the fence I'd poke the shooter in the ribs. Few could get a shot off, aimed or not, before they felt the poke. If my fingers had been a blade the fight would be over, and the "bad guy" would win.

    @UncleMorgan nailed it with the "Point & Pull."

    An old Navy Chief told me that a handgun without a round in the chamber is nothing but a poor hammer.
     
    hot diggity, Nov 23, 2018
    #19
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  20. oldawg

    oldawg Monkey+++

    I suppose I'm spoiled as my defensive carry up until a month ago has always been a 1911. Always cocked and locked with one in the chamber and seven in the mag. I have never in 50 years found any loss in time drawing and disengaging the safety. I have never pinned or disabled the grip safety as it never interfered with drawing and firing it. A couple months ago I decided to move a Ruger LC9s to the front of the line as a carry piece and I remain irked that I just don't trust it to carry a round in the chamber as it only has the trigger safety. Maybe it's not so much of teaching an oldawg new tricks as this oldawg not wanting to learn new tricks. As light and compact as that 9mm is it looks like it is not going to make the cut above my 1911s. The manual safety whether it be ambi,stock,or extended is to me the difference between comfort and nervous. It's what I'm used to. I may still go with one of my Star PDs but for now....
     
    oldawg, Nov 23, 2018
    #20
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