What if.... You Witness a Crime

Legally the robber is not posing a threat to you (sort of, kind of). They are threatening the clerk, not all in the store. The rules is- if you are being threatened, if your life is in danger. By shooting the robber, you are assuming they are going to harm you or that would have to be your defense. This is a hard one because it is that grey area. Save a life or follow the law 100%.

 

No gray area here,You may and can legally come to the defense of a person only IF the gun is actually pointed at them.

 

Not a gray area in Tx, where you are expected to protect others and need to be able to prove it.

""Texas is a Castle Doctrine and “stand your ground” state. Texas law presumes you acted reasonably and justifiably if you use deadly force to protect yourself against an unlawful, forceful intrusion into your occupied habitation (structures that are detached from where you sleep at night are not considered to be your habitation), vehicle or place of business or employment; or to prevent an unlawful, forceful attempt to remove a lawful occupant from the occupied habitation, vehicle or place of business or employment; or to prevent certain serious felonies such as burglary or arson. There is no duty to retreat if faced with a situation where you have to use force or deadly force to protect yourself or another.""

 

Shoot.

 

If my weapon is drawn, I am taking the shot.

 

The key is that @Dunerunner said the store clerk has lost a grasp to follow commands, that moves the grey area into your favor. If the robbers are an imminent threat to you or another, you can use deadly force. Since the store clerk is basically is to the point where she cannot open the cash register, she has rendered herself defenseless. It is a mental checking off boxes all in a moments time. Another point, the weapons are real. I read about a customer who witnessed a robbery, shot the robber and the robber had a fake gun. I think it was in Illinois.

 

Yep, Fake guns will get you shot just as fast,You can add BB guns and Pellet guns into the same group.....

 

I don't know what the book says here, but I'd be inclined to stand up, attract the perp's attention then smoke 'em, since by then I'd really feel threatened. Would that hold up in court? Dunno, don't care, the clerk would have a smidgen of time to duck and dial. Maybe, depending on circumstances, I might dial 911 and leave the mic open before standing up. It is beyond difficult to develop procedures for every possible combination of circumstances. If the perp and clerk make a right angle with you, the sit is different than if the perp is between you and the clerk.

 

Had almost this exact same thing happen to me and a buddy just a few days before my Sweet 16th! Dude was robbing the store, buddy and I were near the back where the slushy machine was at, Bad dude demanded the cash and a bunch of cigs and wanted it all in a bag, he had a small semi auto hand gun and the kid behind the counter got flusterd, bad dude shot him! As the Bad guy exited, the kid recovered enough to then grab the loaded .357 Magnum from under the counter and fired all 6 rounds into the bad dude, 5 into his back, the 6th into the back of his head! I saw the whole thing go down, including all 6 rounds impacting! Bad dude managed to stagger to his car and drove off aprox 3 blocks, crashed and died on the side of the road! Next day I went to the local Feed and seed/ hardware/sporting goods store and plunked down my summer wad of lawn mowing cash on a brand spankin new Colt 1911 series 70 Gold Cup, and I have been carrying every damn day since!
From my perspective, I would have shot right after the Bad Dude plugged the kid, better beg forgiveness then ask permission, and it's better to be judged by 12 then carried by 6! Most locals would grant pretty wide latitude in this type of situation, and besides answering lots and lots of questions, it's not likely you would be prosecuted for saving a life or two! Even in Cali, most counties outside LA would be pretty understanding and unwilling to go after you!

 

I took a lot of classes and always paid very close attention concerning the use of 'Deadly Force.' I can legally carry concealed in 38 states but each state is a bit different when it comes to the use of Deadly Force. However, I can speak for Idaho...and, without a doubt, if I was in the situation as described by Dunerunner , in Idaho, it would be a 100% legal shoot. No doubt about. It goes like this:

WHAT MUST BE PRESENT TO USE DEADLY FORCE?
The IMMEDIATE and OTHERWISE UNAVOIDABLE danger of DEATH or GRAVE BODILY HARM TO THE INNOCENT.
For want of a better word, you must 'show' the following:
The ABILITY - power to kill or cripple
The OPPORTUNITY – capable of employing that power
The JEOPARDY – person acting in such a manner that a reasonable and prudent person believes they intend to kill, or cripple...
(general this is where attacker has a gun, knife, club, etc. but it can be fists also)

As soon as the individuals pulled their firearms and demanded money all criterial are met...they would not have had to shoot the cigarettes or point the weapon at you. They have the Ability, the Opportunity and acting in a manner putting the cashier in Jeopardy. Given the scenario, you have justification to shoot in Idaho. It's a legal shoot.

EDIT: I think what is sad is, given the scenario, we even have to ask the question if we can legally defend society and ourselves against those that would harm us... that is just plain wrong!

 

So, I'm going to toss my female privilege into the mix. Sorry to say it, but I'd at least try to kill both of the robbers, if not, at least disable both. Then, of course, I'd call the police whinging, babbling in Spanish, and acting like a very shaken little old lady. Even if the clerk was seventy, I'd insist they reminded me of my child, and ask repeatedly what they would expect their mother to do in such a situation. I'd get away with it, too, because there is no DA in the universe who would want to put me in front of a jury (until they saw this post, of course). This is the number one reason I don't carry. Seriously, no one has the time to consider the legal ramifications of this in the moment, and I wouldn't shed two tears over these idiots.

 

Just remember.
No good deed goes unpunished.

 

These hypothetical "what if" gun scenarios are never productive or valuable.

 

I actually disagree. I think what it does, at the very least, is it makes a person curious about what constitutes a 'legal shoot' in their own state. Every state is different and everyone should know what they can and cannot do to defend themselves.

For example, I have had a hell'va time convincing my Russian born wife that she cannot shoot someone that is stealing from us. She just doesn't get it because in her own words "that's to stupid to be true!" and then to add insult to injury her come-back is always, "...then why do we have all these guns?" Boy-oh-boy, talk about a tough sell... Anyway, that's just my opinion...

 

In Alabama we are a Stand Your Ground and Castle Doctrine state. I'd shoot them and wouldn't lose any sleep over it! I know a guy that shot and killed a strong-arm robber in the store where he worked, both the police and the DA complimented him on his shooting...3 for 3. He had to go to the station and make a statement, and then he went home. He found out after the fact that the grand jury had passed on ANY charges, and his gun was returned.

 

Then, too, you could always just place them both under arrest and tell them to get their hands up.

I f they do, fine. Have them kneel on both knees. Then have the one with the gun grab it by the barrel with his free hand and hold it up like a flag.

From there, you just keep them both under control, completely disarm, etc. as necessary, and hold them for the police.

Of course, if they don't submit to your arrest instantly, you can pop whoever resists and/or attempts to escape after arrest.

The point being that the state of being under arrest starts when you arrest them, whether they acknowledge it or not.

And you don't necessarily have to tell them them it's a Citizen Arrest first to make the arrest valid.

Just don't tell them you're a cop--unless you are.

 

I'd take the shot. Two shots, actually, as there are two robbers. Once the cops arrive I would tell them that I was in fear for the life of the clerk and those customers inside the store, including me. Then I would shut my mouth after informing them that I have no other comments until in the presence of my attorney. If you do otherwise and keep talking it may only come back to hurt you.