Criminals Trying to Buy my Guns ? OR Feds trying to screw me

Discussion in 'Firearms' started by BigO01, May 8, 2008.


  1. Mule

    Mule Monkey++

    Re: Criminals Trying to Buy my Guns ? OR Feds trying to scre

    Ok, thanks for letting me know the rules. Play nice. No flaming (that must be when someone’s argument gets torched) <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" />

    Now since it appears that the infamous yellow/white form 4473 has been brought up, can someone tell me where those little forms reside when you go to your jolly good gun dealer with his FFL and have a nice little safe, law abiding, paper trailing, “proper” gun purchase ??

    Mule
     
  2. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    Re: Criminals Trying to Buy my Guns ? OR Feds trying to scre

    FTF purchase and firearm sales are probably the only deals where both the buyer and seller assume risks. Caveat Emptor (Let the buyer beware) applies just as much in gun deals as it does in any other purchase so far as the product is concerned, but both parties need to know something about each other when it comes to weapons. Carelessness is dangerous to your freedom (from the greybar hotel) as in all things these days.
     
  3. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    Re: Criminals Trying to Buy my Guns ? OR Feds trying to scre

    I'm going to have to play devils advocate here. While name calling ("gutless wonders") is not a good way to start a dialoque and tends to draw heated responses, besides being against the rules here, that aside I have to agree with the sentiments.

    This go along to get along attitude has helped to lead us to the point where we are today.
    I don't want to get in trouble so I will do things not required, submit to a process that is not mandated, go to lengths not specified by law, just to appease TPTB. That is what is BS.

    Now I agree with Colt in that it is the sellers perogative to request any info, background check, or note from your mother that he wants. If you don't want to submit to that then move on.

    BUT, I also agree with Mule here that to submit to those things just to engage in a legal, private act of commerce is BS.

    I can sale any (legal)thing I want to anyone I want and it is nobodys business. Now if I sell to a known criminal then that is one thing, but to sell to someone I have no knowledge of is not against the law nor is it against the law to refuse to make them prove they are not a criminal. Nor IMHO should it be.

    This "prove to me your legal" attitude is akin to spying on your nieghbor for .gov.

    What if the guy uses the gun to commit a crime? Is that your fault, are you in any way responsible?

    By that resoning we should do a background check on anyone we sell a car to. What if they are a convicted drunk driver. Maybe they will get drunk and drive and kill someone. Is that your fault, is it your responsibility?

    These type of things are a slippery slope that leads to more and more big brother intrusion into our lives.

    The fear of the government is the beginning of tyranny.

    Next it will be that we should go ahead and get the national ID cards so we don't get into trouble, or the RFID chip. Allow warrantless searches of our homes, for the public safety, take away the children of anyone whose beliefs aren't .gov santioned. Maybe I should have anyone who comes into my place of business do a background check before I will let them do business with me. See if they are government approved, Homeland Security certified, good little Orwellian citizens.

    Therin lies the BS.
     
  4. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    Re: Criminals Trying to Buy my Guns ? OR Feds trying to scre

    Pretty much. To my mind, it's pretty necessary to keep up your guard when dealing with folks you don't know well. Just another case of personal responsibility that the sheep don't want to acknowledge, and have left slide to the dot gov to do for them. Insisted on it, really, when they elected their representatives that promised them a free ride if only --. Fact is personal responsibility pretty much was, is, and always will be a requirement since the dawn of time and on into the unforeseeable future. Big Brother has caved in to the bleatings of the sheep that we are not smart enough to take care of ourselves, and has put things in place so the sheep don't have to. Therein lays the rub.
     
  5. B540glenn

    B540glenn Should Be Working Founding Member

    Re: Criminals Trying to Buy my Guns ? OR Feds trying to scre

    Too many have fallen in stings due to minor paperwork errors or other legal shenanigans. A little effort to CYA is well worth it when some with govt power are bent on eliminating your firearm rights.
     
  6. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    Re: Criminals Trying to Buy my Guns ? OR Feds trying to scre

    Originally Posted by Minuteman [​IMG]


    Now I agree with Colt in that it is the sellers perogative to request any info, background check, or note from your mother that he wants. If you don't want to submit to that then move on.
    The need to do so is subjective, but I agree it is seller's prerogative. It is self protection that some may think necessary.
    Protection from what? That is my point. It is not illegal to sell to someone.

    BUT, I also agree with Mule here that to submit to those things just to engage in a legal, private act of commerce is BS.
    This continues to be an interference with free commerce, no question. There is no legal interference (yet) but one has to consider the potential effects when the deal goes down.
    Again,what effects?

    I can sale any (legal)thing I want to anyone I want and it is nobodys business. Now if I sell to a known criminal then that is one thing, but to sell to someone I have no knowledge of is not against the law nor is it against the law to refuse to make them prove they are not a criminal. Nor IMHO should it be.
    Selling to a known criminal is against the law. Whether it should be is open to question, but it is a fact. So how do you know you are violating the law? More to the point, what is your obligation to due diligence to know who you are selling to? (There should be no requirement, and is no requirement that I know of requiring the private seller to investigate a buyer's background.) The bottom line here is not setting yourself up for doing something unknowingly illegal.
    This is my point. There is NO law requiring a private seller to investigate a buyer. So why should you do it? Why would you be scared of the "grey bar hotel" for engaging in a legal act of commerce in a legal manner. That was my point. Voluntarily going above and beyond what is actually required just to appease TPTB, just to not "get into trouble", that is what is a dangerous precedent and leads us down the road to more and more BS rules and regs.

    This "prove to me your legal" attitude is akin to spying on your neighbor for .gov.
    Here I cannot agree. While it could be interpreted like that, it is more like spying to protect yourself.


    What if the guy uses the gun to commit a crime? Is that your fault, are you in any way responsible?
    Or what if you buy a gun that was traceable to a crime? Did you check the seller's bona fides? Proving my point that both sides of a gun deal have some risks.
    Again I have to ask. What risks? If you buy a gun that was, unknown to you, stolen, or used in a crime and they trace it to you, what is the worst that would happen? They would confiscate it and you probably would lose your investment, but you certainly wouldn't go to jail for it.
    I had some guns stolen some years ago and found them in the local pawn shop. Guess what? The pawn shop owner was not liable for recieving stolen property. And, if I wanted the guns back, I had to pay him what he bought them for.

    By that reasoning we should do a background check on anyone we sell a car to. What if they are a convicted drunk driver. Maybe they will get drunk and drive and kill someone. Is that your fault, is it your responsibility?
    The analogy is inexact (as most are) in that the laws already require certain legal documents to transfer vehicles. Worse, that analogy is one of the platforms that the anti folks want to apply to gun sales. If such things are required, then the paper trail will absolve the innocent immediately from any culpability if the gun was or will be used criminally.
    Inexact, yes. Used by the anti's, in the registration analogy, yes. But my point was that the seller does not have to verify that the buyer has a drivers license, is not a drunk, etc.

    These type of things are a slippery slope that leads to more and more big brother intrusion into our lives.
    Yup.

    The fear of the government is the beginning of tyranny.
    Yup again.

    Next it will be that we should go ahead and get the national ID cards so we don't get into trouble, or the RFID chip. Allow warrantless searches of our homes, for the public safety, take away the children of anyone whose beliefs aren't .gov sanctioned. Maybe I should have anyone who comes into my place of business do a background check before I will let them do business with me. See if they are government approved, Homeland Security certified, good little Orwellian citizens.
    NWO, not Orwellian. I think. Whatever, it is further intrusion that we don't need.

    Yeah, more NWO.

    Therin lies the BS.

    I didn't want to see Mule's post summarily dismissed. He has some valid arguments.
    But if someone feels it necessary to CYA and do things that are not required by law to do, it just seems to me that they are making it easier for the next BS law that comes along.
    The gov puts us through enough red tape and hurdles as it is. Why add on ones that you don't have to?

    I have considered selling my home built .50 BMG ever since the ATFers decided that it didn't qualify as an 80% kit and made me put a serial# on it and let them record it.
    If I sell it you can bet it will be in a FTF and there won't be any BS background checks involved!
    [finger]
     
  7. Mule

    Mule Monkey++

    Re: Criminals Trying to Buy my Guns ? OR Feds trying to scre

    Well thanks to Minutman for fleshing out the run. I know I have been a hackle raiser but to me it is the quickest way to flush out folks gut check responses on any subject.


    If you cannot conduct your affairs with the ideas of freedom when you are allowed to exercise them freely, then you will not fight for them when they are taken away.

    Mule
     
  8. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Re: Criminals Trying to Buy my Guns ? OR Feds trying to scre

    The deal with the Pawn shops dont exactly work the same as it dose for private citizens. They have goten their own special laws passed so if they buy stolen goods then they can make the owner sue them to TRY to get them back or give them what they paid for the stuff, a private citizen caught with those same stolen goods can in fact go to prison for it. I have personaly known 2 people (seperate cases) who were found in posession of stolen property, charged and did time for it, even after their time was fully served, both still maintained they never knew the stuff was stolen but basicly the judges decided they shoulld have known because they got good deals or whatever. So on the buyers side, I would say that if you have a bill of sale it should be enouph to show you did due diligence by conducting business in a business like manner.

    If I sell someone a car Im going to make sure I have something to show I sold it so Im no longer responsible for what they do with it, be it that they dont file for the title and get parking tickets on it or wreck it then split and records show me as the owner, if I cant show I was no longer the owner then I could well be sued by the person they hit since I was the owner on record.

    While its the individual seller to determine how they want to conduct a sale and the buyer to decide if they want to take part in the sale (seller can insist they will only sell if you wear a beany and stand on your head, just dont see a likely sale happening), I personaly would not generaly be worried about running a sale through an FFL if the person is from my state and its FTF or getting a backgroung check or for myself even messing with a copy of a lisence and so on but figure that particularly if its a handgun then I would probably do a bill of sale and if they were not obviously of age then might ask to see ID to make sure that I wasnt selling to a 16 year old. To me a bill of sale isnt a real big deal since its pretty much just a reciept and we get and give reciepts in most other business transactions so I dont see where its any more inviteing tyranny to get a bill of sale for a gun in order to prove you got it or sold it in a lawful manner if ever needed than say to have a contract with a person hired to remodel your house and get reciepts for all monies you give them so that if they fail to meet their obligations or try to claim you didnt pay them you can prove you paid and what their obligations were.

    If all goes well I will be picking up a couple of calves this weekend or the first of next week. I figure I will ask for a reciept/bill of sale on them when I do, aside from anything else so that if a neighbor looses a calf or 2 and notices I all of a sudden have a couple that may be the same size and breed then theres no question that mine are indeed mine.

    Government aside, business on a handshake now days in our society leaves you open to liability. I just dont see any reason to leave the door open on guns more than would on other stuff. On a bill of sale, it stays with me and is ONLY presented to law enforcement if they come looking for the guns owner because it got used in a crime or some such.

    As far as the 4473 forms someone asked about and where they stay/go, as far as I understand from the FFLs I have talked to or known, just like their bound book the forms stay with them for as long as they are an FFL. If they give up their lisence or die then their bound book and all their required papers go to the ATF at that time and are put in storage in case they need to be looked at to find the history of a gun.
     
  9. Seacowboys

    Seacowboys Senior Member Founding Member

    Re: Criminals Trying to Buy my Guns ? OR Feds trying to scre

    I could care less if Billy Bob looses it in a poker game; ceased to be my concern when it walked out the door. I more or less feel about the same as Mule but my quaint Southern charm only lets me express it in a more civil manner, "Bless your heart, you're feeding the machine that's eating your children."
     
  10. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    Re: Criminals Trying to Buy my Guns ? OR Feds trying to scre

    deleted...pointless flaming
     
  11. BigO01

    BigO01 Monkey+++ Founding Member

    Re: Criminals Trying to Buy my Guns ? OR Feds trying to scre

    Well guys you can go back and forth about what is and isn't illegal all day long and it wont change my mind .

    You see you aren't taking into consideration the Ahole Cops around here I have dealt with .

    True story for all of you .

    It's been about 3 years since I received a phone call at work to come home right away because my oldest "19 yo" son was being arrested one night .

    His friend Jake who lived across the street and 1 house to the left had come over around 7pm and visited and then both of them walked to Jakes house where he had a pizza and then they came back to my house . Jake didn't have internet and wanted to look something up on Dave's computer , after about a half an hour Jake was picked up by some of his other friends and off he went , my son stayed home because he had to work in the morning and was about to go to bed .

    About a half an hour after Jake left there was a knock on the door and it was a County cop . Wife went to see what he wanted and was asked if we had teenage sons and had they been out in the last hour or so .

    My son went out on the porch to talk to him and was arrested for breaking and entering .

    It seems the neighbor who lived directly across the street came home and opened a window and found that the screen was torn/cut and claimed she saw two boys crossing the street and sent the cops to my house .

    Now the window in question is on the front side of the house in plain view of any1 on the street and the screen was very old and rusted "it was a HUD house and rather run down with torn screens for years as we knew the former tenants and had helped them with things like car repairs more than a few times as their kids were in school with ours and they played together on the street" 2 it was still daylight as it was mid August so breaking into that window would take a fool 3 the womens description of the boys and their color of clothing didn't even match what Jake and Dave were wearing.

    Jake was called on his cell phone and came home to talk to the police and clear it up and was also arrested immediately .

    When I got home they had been taken away and the crime scene was on the way .

    I spoke to the crime scene cop and he said that there wasn't any evidence of a crime at all because the window cill was filthy and the dirt was completely undisturbed not so much as a single print and where the screen was torn the edges were completely rusted where if it had just happened it would be shiney .

    Jakes father told me that the people living there had been putting a window Airconditioning unit in and out of that window when it started getting hot and he saw them tear the screen "they managed to tear it trying to raise it" and that he had told the cops and they ignored him .

    Since they had no evidence of their original charges they changed them criminal tresspassing because the boys had said they may have stepped into the yard "an unfenced front yard" as they were going from Jakes home to mine .

    The prosecutor refused to drop the charges despite the resident of the house not pressing any , and my son pleaded guilty to get it over with and paid a $300 fine. Jake decided to fight it and the last time I asked about it he had shelled out over $600 and it still wasn't over . Not only that but his attorney had postponed a court date and they issued a warrant for his arrest and picked him up on a Friday night and he spent a weekend in Jail due to a clerical error .

    Considering how serious selling a gun to the wrong person could become compared to walking across the street like I said I prefer to be safe than sorry .

    So call me a pussey if you will , if you had these kinds of crooks for cops , prosecutors and judges you might just be a pussey too .
     
  12. Quigley_Sharps

    Quigley_Sharps The Badministrator Administrator Founding Member

    Re: Criminals Trying to Buy my Guns ? OR Feds trying to scre

    Can Anyone show me where someone sold a firearm FTF in a state where legal and then was held liable for the use after wards by the purchaser??

    I know personally a member here on this board who bought a stolen shotgun at a gun show, and wasn't held liable for purchasing a stolen weapon, and the person who sold it never faced charges either.
     
  13. Quigley_Sharps

    Quigley_Sharps The Badministrator Administrator Founding Member

    Re: Criminals Trying to Buy my Guns ? OR Feds trying to scre

    Big00
    You're son plead guilty to a felony to get it over with?????????
    Would be a cold day in hell before I plead guilty to a felony if I didn't do it. I don't care the cost.
     
  14. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    Re: Criminals Trying to Buy my Guns ? OR Feds trying to scre

    I see nothing wrong with a legible bill of sale. if somebody judges that puts me at the bottom of the "bad ass list",well so be it..
     
  15. BigO01

    BigO01 Monkey+++ Founding Member

    Re: Criminals Trying to Buy my Guns ? OR Feds trying to scre

    Don't know for sure what he plead to Quig he doesn't listen to me and he didn't want me going with him to court although he said it wasn't a felony thats all he said .

    He didnt do any community service time , Jail time or check in with anybody etc. so who knows .

    I told him to insist on a jury trial since the whole thing was a crock of crap .

    As far as I'm concearned the whole dam system is full of crooks and has been a long time .

    When I was 6 we went to Arizona to visit my sister for vacation and my dad was pulled over on an interstate by a Arizona state trooper .

    The lowlife POS took him to jail for running a stop sign ??!!! Now I ask you you ever seen a stop sign on a interstate in the middle of the desert ?

    He charged my folks almost $200 to bail Dad out and this was in 1969 .

    The topper was they issued an arrest warrant for him when he didnt show up for a trial !! Even if he had run a stop sign what would the fine be in 1969 , the nearly $200 they had already stolen ? I don't think so .
    Luckily for Dad he grew up with a guy who later went on to become a US Senator , Tom Eagleton , one call to him and the arrest warrant was dropped .

    Just try convicing me he didnt see out of state plates and decided to F us .

    Cops are crooks and crooks are cops there may be some good ones but they are few and damn far between .
     
  16. Seacowboys

    Seacowboys Senior Member Founding Member

    Re: Criminals Trying to Buy my Guns ? OR Feds trying to scre

    I fail to see what possible relevance a gun being used in a crime has; the gun did not commit the crime, it was just an innocent tool. What about buying a hammer used in a crime? or a crow-bar? or a brick? When we buy into the belief that a gun used in a crime is any different than one used to shoot a tin can, then the gun becomes somewhat culpable and lends validity to the gun-control issue; guns are bad. They cause crime. Horse-shit!
     
  17. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    Re: Criminals Trying to Buy my Guns ? OR Feds trying to scre

    Wi.statute948.55:"Ifyou leave a loaded firearm within easy reach or easy access of a child you may be fined or imprisoned or both if the child improperly DISCHARGES,POSSESSES, OR EXHIBITS the firearm".

    You sign a copy of that with every purchase here. Call it what you will; a gun is not a hammer,and the owner takes on a special responsibility to see it's controlled in the eyes of the "law".I didn't pass it....

    A scumbag felon may not be a "child"(under18) but it follows there is some responsibility attached to the legal owner.
    And No I don't have case law or anecdotal evidence to back that up.
     
  18. Quigley_Sharps

    Quigley_Sharps The Badministrator Administrator Founding Member

    Re: Criminals Trying to Buy my Guns ? OR Feds trying to scre

     
  19. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Re: Criminals Trying to Buy my Guns ? OR Feds trying to scre

    More than haveing sold the gun being a problem I would just want to be able to prove it HAD been sold if I had bought it with paperwork so that if it gets droped beside a body then it becomes evidence, if Im the owner of record then it could reasonably have the cops hasseling me since just like if they found my ID there it would kind of indicat I might have been there and had something to do with it. Something to show I didnt own the gun anymore sends them on down the line toward who ever did own it at the time.

    YES I have seen a room mate back in my early 20s get to spend a lovely day of conversation with a couple of charming dectectives after a gun he had owned and sold some time before showed up at a crime scene. He had known the guy he sold it to at least somewhat and was able to send the officers on to the next owner to track it along to who had it at thee time of the bad robbery, he was still informed that if the info couldnt be verified they would be talking further.

    Similarly if I buy a gun then someday say I have to use it in a defensive situation and in clearing the shoot it comes to light its a balistic match to an unsolved homicide, I kind of figure it would be nice to be able to prove I didnt own the gun untill AFTER that occured since it WOULD be reasonable for them to be looking at you for it if you had the gun used the same as if they found you in posession of a hammer that had pieces of the persons scalp in the claws even though you didnt get the hammer untill later.
     
  20. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Re: Criminals Trying to Buy my Guns ? OR Feds trying to scre

    Like I say, the case I personaly know of where it became a problem it was a legal FTF sale and knowing who it had gone to kept it from being a big problem instead of just a day or 2 of hassel with a couple of detectives. So far as news stories, that would be pretty impossible since the most likely outcome would not be for them to try to jam them up for selling it but rather to dismiss the claim it had been sold and charge the last known owner with the crime and a person charged with a violent crime rarely has their claims of proof it wasnt them reported on in any detail since its assumed to be a lie.


    On the stolen property, I havent personaly known folks who did time over stolen guns specificly but have known a couple who went down for general property. One of the cases was a guy who had let his 'friend' who was in limbo of moveing use his shed for storage. It was a general selection of stuff not like 50 TVs or anything to even make it highly suspicious but the cops some how found out about the stuff (I dont recall all the details) and that it was stolen. The guy told them it belonged to his buddy and that it was storage he had nothing to do with and if it was stolen he had no idea of it. They had no evidence to the contrary, the guy had no record up to then and they had nothing to link him to stealing it. IIRC he served 4 years (I KNOW he did time but dont recall for sure the exact amount) then walked parole for recieving stolen goods. While it didnt involve guns, I figure that guns would still be considered goods and depending on the cops and DA if it had been stolen could get you jammed up as well as if it ever turned out to have been used in an unsolved crime before it came into your possesion.

    So NO I dont know of a case where someone got in trouble exactly because they did a leagle sale of a gun that was later used in a crime or of a person going to jail for possesion of a stolen gun (that I know of that they didnt steal or know was hot) BUT YES I have seen cases similar enouph to both to figure that someone could get jammed up if they couldnt show when their possesion of a gun began and ended.

    Like I say, my post on doing the ID and all of that to acompany the bill of sale was relaying the info from a lawyer on what to do to CYA and avoid potential problems, all I would be looking at would be a bill of sale and in EITHER of these cases there is still nothing on file with any of the government agencies and the only why they know about it is if there is a crime that they are investigating that leads them to you and it then simply shows when you obtained it and when you gave up possesion of it, from who and to who.
     
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