A debate. Trading post vs Digging in at BOL/BIL

Discussion in 'General Survival and Preparedness' started by Zimmy, Jan 12, 2018.

  1. Zimmy

    Zimmy Wait, I'm not ready!

    I recently posted about my curiosity of hiding through the crash or starting a Trading Post once we were WROL.

    Digging in and bunkering down certainly has its merits. I’m certain in my village I cannot do that. I live where I grew up and where my parents and grandparents were before me. Half of the people around me are either Czech or Mexican immigrants. All are 1-3rd generation Americans. Farmers, mechanics, carpenters, commercial gardeners, etc. Hard work and the old ways are common practice. These are my people. Most of the Czechs are old with kids and grandkids who moved away for city life. The Mexicans are a generation younger and have a tighter family unit.

    Recently we have become a bedroom community for upper middle class Americans. They come here to build McMansions and other sprawling houses. They bitch endlessly about sporadic hunting or recreational gunfire, the smell of livestock, and tractors slowing traffic.

    I kinda think a trading post would work well in a collapse. Things sought could be put on a board and things available on another. Prices could be strictly barter.

    Services needed could also be posted with the needy applying for a position doing as needed. Work could be brokered for a fee and security provided for another. Payment could be in hard goods, labor, or produce.

    I realize the establishment would be a target. Storage would be another challenge. I think it could work.

    Ideas, Monkeys?

    Have at me!
    GOG, Dunerunner, duane and 3 others like this.
  2. techsar

    techsar Monkey+++

    Step one, get rid of the uppity folks. Hunting, gunfire and farming built this country. If they can't or won't accept that fact they are in the wrong place. But that's just the opinion of a 9th generation American ;)

    Trading posts would be a good way to establish a community center in addition to providing a venue for exchange.
    Loki, GOG, Gator 45/70 and 4 others like this.
  3. oil pan 4

    oil pan 4 Monkey+++

    Well commerce probably isn' going to die. Why wait till the collapse to become a merchant.
    Post shtf people are going to continue their roles.
    People who are paper pushers aren't going to suddenly become mercenaries over night, at least not for very long.
    Retail workers aren't going to become successful farmers.
    And so on.

    If you want to be doing x, y or z post shtf you better be doing it now.
    GOG, Gator 45/70, UncleMorgan and 2 others like this.
  4. Zimmy

    Zimmy Wait, I'm not ready!

    Great advice. I’d cheerfully follow it if I wasn’t doing something else. I’d rather wait until my customers thought walking 0-5 miles to get what they needed was convenient compared to a no longer existing Amazon (or doing without).
    Gator 45/70 and UncleMorgan like this.
  5. Zimmy

    Zimmy Wait, I'm not ready!

    Kinda what I was thinking. More community, more room for specialization, right?
    Gator 45/70 and UncleMorgan like this.
  6. Yard Dart

    Yard Dart Vigilant Monkey Moderator

    I am of the mind that once the SHTF, one will need to hunker down until the die off is complete....then you will need to secure your AO from roving bands of marauders/opportunist. Once you have security established, creating a new community hub with barter will be essential to stability across the area. As other communities establish the same norm, then you can create regional trade once again. How long this process takes to establish, IMO is strictly security related....... one has to ensure that is a key post SHTF role initially..... but that is just my thoughts.
    GOG, Gator 45/70, Dunerunner and 4 others like this.
  7. Zimmy

    Zimmy Wait, I'm not ready!

    Agreed, Bro.

    It all depends on if we get an Apocalypse or just an economic decline into shitiness and poverty.

    In a slow decline, hiding will be a great burden over time and there won’t be shit left to barter after the die off. The have’s will wield power a long time and organized searching for resources will be the norm. Entrepreneurs would have a hard time here. Maybe some genetically endowed Mediterranean merchants could make it.

    I would hopefully be in the hills yelling “Wolverines!” (“Aggies!” Doesn’t really stir the soul)

    An EMP or hard Pandemic would be quick. After 3 months 1/2 might be dead with another 1/2 of what’s left dead at 6 months. I figure turmoil will be everywhere. Community building would need to be in this stage. Perhaps starting at about 1 month in dependent on Security abilities, mostly.

    Another Clinton election, a slow pandemic, or alien invasion would probably be somewhere between the two options.
  8. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    Think grange during and after the crash.
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  9. UncleMorgan

    UncleMorgan I eat vegetables. My friends are not vegetables.

    Nobody survives alone. Man is a herd animal, and when the SHTF, the herd you need has to be a tribe.

    Call it by any name--but it's an exclusive group that can and will defend it's territory against all comers. A large tribe is a nation, a small one is a gang.

    If you have at least 22 members, your gang can upgrade to being a small (but self-supporting and potentially stable) tribe.

    Every tribe has an economy, and having the local general store/trading post would be a high-status position within the tribe.

    Your situation sounds ready made for "cooperation" from the start, rather than "competition". The people that can't or won't fit in would soon be banished by the locals, and then everyone left would close ranks.

    That would shorten the recovery cycle by at least twenty years, I think. And make life a lot more worth living, as well as more probable, in the meantime.
    Gator 45/70, Zimmy, duane and 2 others like this.
  10. duane

    duane Monkey+++

    I tend to think that after TSHTF, the most livable situations will be modeled on the present religious based groups that have a strong sense of community and a desire for separation from "civilization" as we now know it. They are somewhat of a clan, but something beyond that as well. The Amish, Mennonites, more conservative LDS, etc, have established tight interacting societies that support their beliefs and lifestyles and a support system that is quite independent from that of the mass society. In the short run, the Amish in some parts of the USA might not even know that a collapse had occurred, but given their reputation for self reliance and non violence, I expect that their long term viability would be measured in days as the sheeple arrive in mass to "share" their resources. I have a friend that is completely self sufficient in most senses, makes a living installing water systems, selling pasture raised beef and hogs, garden produce and free run chickens, lives on a farm that has been in the family since 1740, in a small rural community. We were talking about long term survival ability last week and he said it wouldn't happen. Here in the Live Free or Die state, the town and state keep track of his cattle, crop land, greenhouse, etc, for health reasons, meeting regulations, etc, and all of his livestock if processed would furnish 1 meal for the urban area 15 miles from his farm, they monitor and he has to inventory his diesel fuel storage, make sure the road tax is paid you know, list every acre that he farms, current use tax abatement regulations, or pay property taxes that would take the land away, get permission from the town and state to put fertilizer on his fields, cut down the trees, cross the streams or wet lands with his farm equipment, etc. The ability of the sheeple and the present wolves that live on them, educational system, state and federal government, police and military, religious and social organizations, to take anything that you may put aside is at the moment complete. Once it collapses if anything is left, the survivors who have skills and are willing to work, may be able to form tight knit interacting communities similar to the existing Amish areas, and prosper. Doesn't look to hopeful at the moment.
    Hunker down and hide, be as grey as possible, be as non threatening as possible, make as many friend who think like you as possible, try to live through the collapse as well as possible and have resources that will let you rebuild after the collapse if possible. It has worked before, but the more likely outcome I expect will be like Haiti, Somalia, or Syria, etc, with the destruction feeding on itself for generations as things just get worse and worse and one armed group fight the others for the last bowl of rice and the last drink of water.
    Yard Dart, Gator 45/70 and Zimmy like this.
  11. HK_User

    HK_User A Productive Monkey is a Happy Monkey

    Me thinks that if you believe a crash is coming you ought to be doing what needs to be done for a crash right now.

    I figure one in 10,000 might be doing what is needed.

    Others will die before they learn how to adapt.

    See you on the other side.
    Yard Dart, Gator 45/70 and Zimmy like this.
  12. arleigh

    arleigh Goophy monkey

    I can see the emergence of what we have here, Swap meets" more common every where .
    I think it's good to have a plan and A through Z alternatives seeing that there are several scenarios things can fall apart in a society .
    It is important that the core group are disciplined and flexible and adaptable in various situations .
    That's a lot to ask for in this day and age ,and more so as the older of us become less capable of responding as we might have in the past.
    The Greek physician Hypocrites developed the technique and tools for turning over the lens in the eye, yet that was all lost for centuries," because no one bothered to learn it" .
    Electronics will too be lost because no one bothered to learn how to manufacture them from scratch.
    Any one with any level of advancement WILL have a definite advantage over every one else, and given enough incentive will exploit that advantage .
    If all you got is a BB gun , are you going to take on some one with a .308 ? or if you have a .308 dare take on some one with .50 ?
    If all you got for surveillance is people on post ,they are a target easily taken . However if you maintain electronic surveillance fewer people are at risk .
    If these I mention are the only things you comprehend then preparedness is wasted .
    The early 1800s and1900s was a burst of inventions in the US because we had the liberty to "think" see the need and do something about it ,unlike the rest of the world, locked in traditions and superstition.
    People were dumbed down in the past to keep them subjective to the crown much like some governments still attempt .
    Right now we have the extraordinary opportunity to learn far beyond the limitations of PUBLIC schooling , One can invest in the means to make things we currently take for granted IF we take the time and investment.
    Finding people that understand the value of having the technological advantage and taking action toward preserving that skill will make them as indispensable as the black smith through out history.
    Having a mechanic that only knows how to swap parts is OK, but having a man that can make the parts is better .
    Part of the reason I took so many different jobs through out my life time was to add to my education and add value as an employee.
    Building/creating equipment keeps my mind challenged .
    In the event some EOTWAWKI event occurs I can trade with building and repair skills on all kinds of equipment .
    Lastly ,
    There was a time before the internet when people did not share their knowledge and if you were going to learn something it was going to cost you something .
    I suspect that post some cataclysmic event, people will once again resort to having to pay for information, no matter how trivial it is .
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018
  13. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    That opportunity has always existed. It has been the exceptional people that took advantage of the opportunities. What we are seeing, I think, is a waking up of sleeping exceptions as well as a lot of people that are interested only in staying (and going back) asleep. Fingers crossed that the right people respond to the alarm clock.
    Yard Dart, Gator 45/70, Zimmy and 3 others like this.
  14. Thunder5Ranch

    Thunder5Ranch Monkey+++

    I built my business with a eye to a darker future but will do fine with our without a collapse. I keep my customers 30-60 miles out and do a very good job of staying off of the immediate locals radar. It is kind of funny very very few people within 20 miles know what the crazy half breed at the end of the dead end road in the middle of nowhere does. Hundreds of people in that 30-60 miles out radius know exactly what I have for sale.

    A tribe is important and making a tribe post event would be a disaster. It is not ideal but my 3 main friends that live close to and work in Cities will bug out to here 120 and 90 mile trips for them potentially on hoof. Closer to home are two locals within 10 miles that are strong allies. Only a fool would believe that if they produce or have something of value that would not need the strength of a competent group to hold and defend it. On the other hand the larger the group the more risk with internal problems and disputes. I will take a tribe of 4-6 very competent warriors and their wives and kids, over a group of 20 and having some that I doubt or wonder if I can fully trust. I would take NO One if it meant having to form the group after a event and learn as you go if they are competent and trustworthy. Throw in 4-6 wives that are more than a little adept with weapons and some of the kids that are borderline snipers in their marksmanship. A small group of determined and trusted people that you already know and work well with is invaluable. One or two people can only defend and hold so much before it becomes a Siege and Sieges rarely have happy endings for the besieged :) A small group however can take to the field and bring the fight to the enemy if need be. Have the fire support of a fixed position backing them up a couple hundred yards out. And can establish a safe zone where secure trading can be done.

    Trade is going to be important whether it be black market in some liberal dystopian dream society or a severe economic down turn or a full SHTF society collapses completely. Already there is a grey to black market in the food business. The Government very much want to know what everyone like myself is producing and how much. Only a fool would be honest. If you get the USDA Farm Census every five years, you can't help but notice that each time the questions get more invasive and they want more and more details. I already threw mine in the trash and in a month or two will be threatened with a $100 fine and a loss of subsidies and grant funding (Which I don't take either so it is not much of a threat. And thus far they have no way to actually impose and collect the $100 fine.) Over the last 15 years the Government has been increasingly taking a greater and greater interest in the small farms and homestead type farms. Individually we are not the biggest producers but collectively we produce a whole lot of food. My little operation produces around 40,000 pounds of Pork, 25,000 pounds of chicken, 5,000 pounds of Turkey, 3,000 dozen eggs and 220,000 pounds of fruits and vegetables. No getting around the Government knowing these numbers as 4 times per year I have to turn over my meat processing records that include weights and numbers of animals and they check that against my packing plants slaughter records. Same with eggs just a different branch of the agency. And vegetables thus far are easy to fudge on but sooner or later GAP is going to be forced on all of us via the FDA and the FSMA. In the grand scheme of things my operation is considered Very Small but not A Hobby or Micro farm. One thing the various levels of Government and agencies are very good at is collecting information and keeping it in data bases :)

    Myself I will trade in food then as I sell and barter food now. I suspect in any number of potential events that food will only become more and more valuable and potentially worth its weight in gold in some potential events. The biggest problem is holding the land and capacity to produce and store food without someone else taking it from you. Having the force and resolve to hold those food assets and make anyone that would take them suffer a terrible price in blood to take them is important. Those who have nothing to trade will hate you, those who want what you have will plot against you and many will fall to those forces and the belief that someone else will protect them and seriously lack the will to defend what is theirs. Does not matter if it is food, clothing, ammo. lumber, etc. Sadly no matter what you are dealing in, the dirtiest players in the game will come out on top and survive. Much like it is now just different tactics and life and death instead of success or bankrupt.

    Sorry if that sounds bad but it will be a harsh world that will require people to be harsh in their dealings with other people. Does not mean unfair, just harsh and firm and willing to respond to trouble fast and decisively. Lets face in a full melt down you will be left with your own resources and the law, judge, jury and executioner in your little realm............ or you will be at the mercy of someone else and their law. LOL Tribalism and Trade between those tribes will thrive. Just my thoughts on what at least my little trading post will be like.
  15. arleigh

    arleigh Goophy monkey

    Every time I leave the house I anticipate having to walk home , not because I want to see something bad happen, but not taking things for granted .
    Just like our government LET Pearl harbor and 911 targets be hit, as well as other events ,it wouldn't surprise me if they allowed future attacks as well.
    It behooves us to be vigilant about our own business of preparedness , and circumspect about the way things appear to be going , warn the intelligent, and gather(stay in touch) those we trust with our lives.
    Tempstar, Yard Dart, GOG and 4 others like this.
  16. HK_User

    HK_User A Productive Monkey is a Happy Monkey

    That's what my Pops taught me.
    Gator 45/70 and Yard Dart like this.
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