CAP & TRADE

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Clyde, Jun 26, 2009.


  1. Clyde

    Clyde Jet Set Tourer Administrator Founding Member

    Ok....House passed the one of the largest and most comprehensive tax. Yes, it will be a tax because everything that emits carbon will be taxed!

    So, what 3 states have the most clean coal fired energy plants? Michigan, Ohio & Indiana. According to sources inside the energy company in Michigan, we should expect a 2-300% INCREASE in our energy bills in the forthcoming years. Currently my bill is $282 a month for gas/electric. Now an almost $900 dollar bill in the near future is a joke.

    Cow farting will probably be taxed, too, so expect your meat prices to rise.

    I hope the Senate kills this thing. DOA in the Senate or we are screwed.


    With this type of energy increase in prices, expect more companies to move to China/India and a futher drop in US manufacturing. Buy American? My ass. We will all be buying everything foreign. No need to build a plant in the US when it can be done elsewhere.
     
  2. tacmotusn

    tacmotusn Mosquito Sailor

    I probably should sugar coat things a bit more. I write both my Senators, and my Congessman regarding every important bill that comes before them for a vote. My messages to them are bi-partisan. The following was sent to my Legislative Branch Representatives.

    Are you having any doubts yet about voting on things without having been allowed to read what the Bills actually say. IT IS YOUR JOB TO READ THE LEGISLATIVE BILLS BROUGHT BEFORE YOU. TO DO OTHERWISE IS FOOLISH AS WELL AS STUPID. PLEASE DO YOUR JOB. DO NOT BE OTHER. That said I oppose Cap and Trade from what I know of it. COMMON SENSE PLEASE !!!

    All the damn bums in Washington D.C. need to have their asses whipped !!! JMHO of course
     
  3. CraftyMofo

    CraftyMofo Monkey+++

    It will only cost $770 per year per household. Come on Clyde, you know that's a small price to pay for all the GREEN JOBS that come with it.

    Has anyone heard any mention of what this will do to the price of gas? I suppose nobody has time to read it yet...
     
  4. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    I hope you are being sarcastic.:shock:

    http://www.infowars.com/obama-says-climate-bill-just-the-beginning/
    Obama says climate bill just the beginning


    • Text size
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    Stephen Dinan
    The Washington TimesJune 26, 2009

    • A d v e r t i s e m e n t
    • [​IMG]
    President Obama on Friday said the global warming bill the House is debating today is only a start, not the end of efforts to control greenhouse gas emissions. The president, after a meeting with German Chancellor Angela Merkel, also said he remains concerned about post-election violence in Iran, but did not go as far as Mrs. Merkel, who said the international community must help to identify victims who were beaten, arrested or killed by the Iranian government.
    And the president said that even with attacks growing ahead of Tuesday’s deadline for U.S. troops to leave Iraqi cities, President Obama said the security situation there remains dramatically improved and the key problem is political reconciliation, not violence.
    Read entire article
     
  5. ghrit

    ghrit Ambulatory anachronism Administrator Founding Member

    "Mrs. Merkel, who said the international community must help to identify victims who were beaten, arrested or killed by the Iranian government."
    Why? Utter nonsensical rubbish.
     
  6. CraftyMofo

    CraftyMofo Monkey+++

    Yes Tango...dripping with sarcasm.

    I've already written my senators on the subject, since I'd imagine they will be voting on it soon. This state can't take it any more, with all the auto losses, unfavorable business climate, and now this...
     
  7. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    He's just getting started....I understand it passed by 7 and 8 repubs voted yea...we need to get the vote and see who they were. I thought bush was unstoppable things are really accelerating towards the rotary air mover now.
     
  8. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    I heard some pundits today saying they don't expect it to pass the Senate. It will go to them this fall. I copied this from an oilfield website I belong to. This woman sums the impact on that industry pretty well.


    Dear Senator Coburn,

    I am not a professional writer; I am just a God loving American, Mom of 3 and Wife of an Oil Field Worker. Why do I tell you this, because I don’t want you to read this and expect a perfect piece of literature!
    I am writing to you in hopes that you will read this email with an open mind and open heart. I pray when it comes time for you to place a vote for President Obama’s Energy bill and Cap & Trade agreement, that you take into consideration the out of work Oil field Workers.
    The Oil field workers; who you never hear about on the news, when you’re hearing about the major businesses closing their doors. The Thousands of Oil Field Workers out of work across our Nation. Some of these men have been laid off and get to file unemployment; thank God for that for these families. Others, a mass majority of them are contract hired and have no unemployment benefits.
    As of today one year ago, the rig count from Baker Hughes was 1913 drilling rigs in the field, today June 26, 2009 that rig count stand at 917, that is 996 not operating today. The average drilling rig for one job would roughly keep 20 men employed. Sir, that means that there are 19920 workers unemployed, from this one industry.
    Now please don’t take me wrong, because most people would say these men make, 5 times, maybe even 10 times the amount the average Oklahomans makes in a year and they are correct in saying so, but these same men, help support the small communities they work in and live in, these are the men who because they are contract hire, have to pay for private healthcare insurance for their families at times ranging up to $1000.00 a month, the same men who have to carry the maximum insurance on their auto insurance, just to drive onto the oil patch, the same men who can't buy life insurance because they have one of the top 5 most dangerous jobs in the World.
    When the average American thinks about Oil Field workers, they think crude oil. I have asked many people “give me a word that you would use to describe an Oil Field worker”. These are some: Dirty! Nasty! Smelly! Selfish! Rich!
    Not very flattering words, not a word that my husband likes to hear people think of him. But, you see my husband doesn’t work in the Crude Oil Business, he works in the “OIL & GAS” business, GAS meaning Natural Gas. The by-products of the processing of Natural Gas include ethane, propane, butanes, pentanes and higher molecular weight hydrocarbons, elemental sulfur, and sometimes helium and nitrogen. It is an important fuel source, a major feedstock for fertilizers, and yes a potent green house gas.
    I ask do these people who think of all “Drilling” to be bad, dirty and selfish, not use any of the above mentioned gas resources Natural gas is also an essential raw material for many common products, such as: paints, fertilizer, plastics, antifreeze, dyes, photographic film, medicines, and explosives. Natural gas has thousands of uses and industry depends on it. It's used to produce steel, glass, paper, clothing, brick, electricity and much more! More than 62 percent of homes use natural gas to fuel stoves, furnaces, water heaters, clothes dryers and other household appliances. It is also used to roast coffee, smoke meats, bake bread and much more. . Do they not heat their homes, with Natural Gas? Do they not BBQ on Labor Day, with propane? Do they not have romantic nights with candles, lit with butane lighter? Do they not buy balloons for their children’s birthday parties, filled with helium?
    There are thousands of out of work Oil Field Workers right now, that can not get a job! My husband being one, he has heard over and over again in the last year and half the same words during an interview, “Mr. Koons, it has been my experience in the past when hiring Oil Field Workers, that I hire you, I train you and I lose you, as soon as the Oil Field work picks back up, I am truly sorry but I can not afford to hire you”.
    So Senator, where does this leave my family? No income! We are responsible, we put away for a rainy day. We had enough money to pay for 6 months of our bills, put away. It’s gone!
    Today, I decide do I pay my mortgage or save that money to keep electricity on next month and food on my table for my children. Today, I tell my 10 year old she can’t go to her friend’s birthday party, because I can not pay for the trip to the water park they are going on. Today, I tell my 13 year old to drink another glass of water, after he finished his dinner and said he was still hungry, because I want to save what is left for lunch tomorrow.
    Is this bill about Global Warming? Not to me! It’s about taking work from America. Because as a society we are accustom to certain things. Such as pushing a button and heating our home; taking a hot shower; cooking our food on a stove. Will society today return to the way of the past? Boiling water to bathe? Not coloring our hair? Not painting our homes? I don’t think so! So what will happen, we will be resourceful and get it from somewhere else, another country!
    So to me, Sir this bill is about keeping the work in America! Keeping 20,000 men and woman employed.
    I beg of you Sir, please open your heart, open your soul and see that this isn’t a policy of choice! It’s a policy of LIFE and survival for your fellow Americans.
     
  9. tacmotusn

    tacmotusn Mosquito Sailor

    Excellent letter / post Minuteman! I copied it, added a separate personnal foreward to it and sent it on to all of my Federal Legislative Branch representatives. This was my second email to them in the last 2 days. I would encourage all SM members, new and old to do the same with their representatives. Below is some info on how the House of Congress vote went.

    By a final vote of 219-212, HR 2454, the Cap-and-Tax scheme, has passed the House.

    Eight Republicans switched over to make the final margin possible. These eight are:

    Bono Mack
    Castle
    Kirk
    Lance
    LoBiondo
    McHugh
    Reichert
    Smith (NJ)

    Since this is such a high priority issue for the Obama administration, it's amazing that the margin was this thin.

    Incredibly, 44 Democrats voted against the legislation.

    That would not have happened without your efforts.

    Thanks to all those who called, faxed, and emailed.

    The fight moves to the Senate now, where the bill faces an uncertain future.

    We still have a very good chance to stop Cap-and-Trade.



    see the full house vote here
    http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2009/roll477.xml

    I am happy to say that my Congressman voted No to the Cap and Trade Bill
     
  10. ghrit

    ghrit Ambulatory anachronism Administrator Founding Member

    From the last action posting on http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-2454
    "Measure will be considered read." meaning it will not be read into the record before the allotted 3 hours of full house debate takes (took) place.
    That is what caused the 1100 or so pages of the spending bill to get passed. Nobody that voted actually knew what was in it, thus the unintended consequences of future national debt. This one might be headed down the same path as other unfunded mandates. [dunno]

    We can hope, forlorn though it may be, that the staid and thoughtful Senate will see that the rowdy sheep in the House have gone too far.

    [coffee2]
     
  11. kckndrgn

    kckndrgn Moderator Moderator Founding Member


    A couple of our local talk radio stations were saying that the cap & trade tax would either add $.77 per gallon of gas, or $.77 for each dollar gas.

    Either way, we are screwed.
     
  12. tacmotusn

    tacmotusn Mosquito Sailor

    The following was sent to everyone in my email address folder. We all need to do whatever we can to stop this "crap".

    Dear Family and friends,

    The "Cap and Trade Bill" presently in the Federal Legislature is not merely an environment bill to protect us and save us from global warming. That is only the disguise. This massive Bill is the Largest Intrusive Government Power Grab and Tax Increase the Nation has ever seen. It barely squeeked through the House of Congress. It was 1500 pages long, and was rushed through without our STUPID Congressional Representatives even reading it. These Morons continue to make a mockery of the Will if the People and the Legislative Process. I am asking and pleading with each and everyone of you to get involved. I have both of my Senators, and my Congressperson on my computer, on speed dial so to speak. I fire off emails to them about every important bill coming before them. You should and can do the same. It only takes a few minutes. We need to help save and take our country back. Now is not the time to say, "it doesn't matter" "I don't have the time." "I don't know enough about the issues, and I trust my government to do what is right." YOU MUST MAKE AN EFFORT OR ALL IS LOST .... "Comrade".

    By a final vote of 219-212, HR 2454, the Cap-and-Tax scheme, has passed the House.
    Eight Republicans switched over to make the final margin possible. These eight are:

    Bono Mack
    Castle
    Kirk
    Lance
    LoBiondo
    McHugh
    Reichert
    Smith (NJ)

    Since this is such a high priority issue for the Obama administration, it's amazing that the margin was this thin. Incredibly, 44 Democrats voted against the legislation. That would not have happened without your efforts.
    Thanks to all those who called, faxed, and emailed. The fight moves to the Senate now, where the bill faces an uncertain future. We still have a very good chance to stop Cap-and-Trade.



    see the full house vote here
    http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2009/roll477.xml
     
  13. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    I think that may be a conservative estimate. This will hit the oil and gas industry as well as coal the hardest. It is a vieled attempt to force us off of fossil fuels by making them too expensive. This will drive up Oil and Gas prices and that means not just the price of gasoline but of electricity, heating oil, fertilizer etc. and makes us even more dependent on foriegn oil.
    We have got to hammer our Senators when this comes up and get it defeated.

    Gerard: Cap-and-trade would be "massively costly"
    API President Jack Gerard says a Congressional Budget Office analysis estimating that the cap-and-trade energy bill would generate $846 billion in new taxes proves that the proposal would be "massively costly." "The $846 billion price tag on emission allowances, borne disproportionately by oil consumers, will drive up costs of producing and refining gasoline, diesel, and other fuel products while doing nothing to protect fuel consumers, including American families, trucking, the airlines, the construction industry, and many other businesses that rely on oil to make or transport products," he said. Oil & Gas Journal (6/10)



    Mulva: Climate-change bill could create a competitive imbalance: If the Waxman-Markey climate-change bill is passed, America's largest oil companies may have to close refineries, slash capital spending and increase imports, according to ConocoPhillips CEO Jim Mulva. Under the bill, refiners would have to buy allowances for carbon dioxide released at their plants and from vehicles when their fuel was used. "It will lead to the opportunity for foreign sources to bring in transportation fuels at a lower cost, which will have an adverse impact to our industry, potential shutdown of refineries and investment and, ultimately, employment," Mulva said. Bloomberg (6/26)
     
  14. E.L.

    E.L. Moderator of Lead Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    I am not worried about how my senators will vote, I am worried about how others senators will though. I will be contacting as many as possible. It is amazing how deeply this country is divided over such core important issues. How others can not see as clearly as I just amazes me.
     
  15. ghrit

    ghrit Ambulatory anachronism Administrator Founding Member

    Somehow, I have a hard time believing that. I cannot believe they are smart enough to have that sort of agenda and hide it this well. I really think they are narrow minded faddists that can't admit there are unintended consequences to doing what (on the surface) seems a "right thing" for the (fill in the cause of the moment). Remember the Peter Principle? Fully active in the politically PC world (yeah, I know, redundant) right along with the murph.
     
  16. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    I'm refering to the far left enviro wackos that this bill kowtows to. They hate fossil fuels and try to block any attempts to explore and produce here in the US.
    They believe and I believe that they have convinced a lot of dimwitted dems that the biggest hinderance to getting away from fossil fuels is our "addiction" to them.
    Of course it's MHO but I think they do indeed see this as an intervention of sorts. They know what's best for us and they are going to force us to do what they feel is in our best interest.
    Unfortunately they are so blinded by the feel good, PC, pie-in-the-sky legislation that they cannot see, or care to see, the facts.
     
  17. QuietOne

    QuietOne Monkey++

    Ghrit, Minuteman, you are being much too forgiving. This is a direct attempt to restrict the amount of energy available to the public. Access to energy is access to freedom; freedom to go where you want, live where you want and enjoy the kind of life you want. Limited (or expensive, which is the same thing) energy means most everyone has to live in compact, easily supervised cities, work at limited jobs near home and travel only as the government allows. To me, access to energy is as important as access to firearms. Please do everything you can to fight this abomination.
     
  18. Clyde

    Clyde Jet Set Tourer Administrator Founding Member

    This is about government control. Without energy, you are just Amish....which is looking like a pretty good lifestyle right now.
     
  19. ghrit

    ghrit Ambulatory anachronism Administrator Founding Member

    I see your point, but once again, I do NOT think they are smart (read as cunning) enough to conspire that way to control the population. It just isn't credible for some several thousands of morons to keep silent over such a wide spread evil. These boneheads are simply leaping on the concern of the moment; that is, what they think the sheep will support and that will produce a revenue stream. They do not yet see that the revenue stream will be self limiting and produce less moolah than they forecast. (You can easily see the effects of that --)

    I cannot and will not forgive them for mortgaging my granddaughter's future, much less my own (which is already at risk.) Nor can I let them off the hook when it comes to misleading those folks that didn't see thru the smoke and mirrors and trusted zero and the donkey's butts (from both parties) and allowed themselves to be lead down the garden path. As evidence, I offer the twisting and turning in the wind that zero has done backing off the promises he used to get elected. You see the latest yet? Gitmo won't be closed according to zero's timetable, if ever, until the worst of the worst die. (Well, that last part is my invention. Closing will be delayed until at least next year, however.)

    zero bit off far more than he can chew. Not enough experience, not enough knowledge or economics (or politics other than maybe the Chicago machine) not enough of anything other than an excellent command of rhetoric and sheep herding a' la ACORN.

    And again, the denizens that inhabit the Congress rather than tending to their farms during the off season are guilty as hell of being hornswoggled into voting for a bill they didn't even read. They trusted their "leadership" rather than thinking for themselves and for US. I cut them no slack at all.
     
  20. tacmotusn

    tacmotusn Mosquito Sailor

    Ghrit, for the most part I got to agree. but, I remind all to check the vote stats to see how your congressperson voted! mine voted against the bill. I gotta respect that! I provided the link on an earlier post. and by all means contact your Senators NOW and let them know if you like me object to this Bill!
     
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