Chain of Command

Discussion in 'General Survival and Preparedness' started by Motomom34, Aug 8, 2022.


  1. Motomom34

    Motomom34 Monkey+++

    What do you do when the chain of command is broken? How long does one wait till boots on the ground give aid?

    We all saw the Uvalde school shooting. As the news came out it was revealed that the commander of the situation waited over 70 minutes to give the go command. The officers were evacuating the rest of the school but trained folks know that many do not die from the gun shot but from the trauma and bleeding out. Time is of the essence.

    Soldiers, rescue teams and those who have had formal training know that the chain of command is first and foremost set then orders/coordination come from the command post. The expression, “going off halfcocked” is why the chain of command is vital to a successful operation or rescue.

    I have had this conversation with many on what do you do if the go is never given. If one disobeys orders and kills a civilian while rescuing others, charges will be filed.This is an important question because if society ever collapses and you are in a group, where is that line when you disobey and/or overthrow command/leaders.

    What do you do when your chain of command is not responding to the urgency of the situation?
     
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  2. Thunder5Ranch

    Thunder5Ranch Monkey+++

    The chain has to leave room for autonomy to act in the heat of the moment. Having a commander and policy that attempts to micro manage the front operators when the bullets are flying and people are dying and the front line is waiting for orders from someone at the rear will always lead to more death. If I were the front it would have been a UNODIR a single radio call "Unless Otherwise Directed we are engaging the hostile." And then the radios would malfunction until the situation was resolved. Not a reason in the world that the door should not have been breached in the first few seconds of police arriving. Would LEOs lives have been lost...... Probably and I would not want to be the first one through the door but if me becoming a meat shield for those behind me to take the guy out and save childrens live I would be happy to be the meat shield.
     
  3. Ura-Ki

    Ura-Ki Grampa Monkey

    Your hitting on a couple of distinct issues here, so I'm gonna address them separately.
    When I was Active Duty, we had Strict guidelines for combat related situations, HOWEVER, we were also empowered to act on our own outside the chain of command if the situation warranted it, such as being engaged by the enemy while preforming our prime mission and not having to wait for permission from command, This was essential! Uvaldi was just such a situation, those jack asses had many opportunities to act, but were cowards, no other excuse, including waiting for orders from command! The police should have had things setup so that officers could respond in what ever manor they felt needed with out fear of prosecution for it. THAT was a failure of command, and reflects very poorly on that agency! The Responding Officers are equally at fault here, they knew full well what was going on and what the stakes were, and they chose to cover their own asses instead of attempting to save those children, this is inexcusable and those officers should all be punished to the full extent of the law, and then some! We saw the exact same thing in Parkland Fl. officers stacked up outside, safely, and waited while children were murdered, again, NO EXCUSE! There is a system of Redress in this type of situation, those cops could have acted on their own, and then when their coward Chief showed up, remove him from command under the "No Confidence" and Failure of Command, and that would have insulated the officers. Very much like the Military, if your commanding officer is inept, you have the legal means to remove them and you can then name a successor, even if just for the temp situation as needed!

    Speaking only as a former JSOC Operator, my job was just such an event, and while we hadn't ever trained for a active shooter type situation or a school incident, we were very well trained to deal with ANY THREAT we might be sent into, and I can tell you, My team and I ( 6 very experienced men) would have had that situation well in hand LONG before any officers had arrived. We would have hit the ground, split into two three man elements and stormed the school, located the shooter, breached any barrier and taken the shooter down, all in under three min. of hitting the ground! We could also have breached through the roof and taken things under control that way! The Point is not bragging, it's to show that TRAINING is Key here, Having the skills and the authority to use them when needed and not having to wait for the "EXICUTE" order to make it happen, and this is why all those kids died horribly!

    As to things going kinetic after the break down of rule of law, your pretty much on your own, and unless you and your group have established some sort of "Command" structure, it's going to be pretty much every one for themselves! As to chain of command in that type of situation, it's going to come down to how much authority one is given over others, and how it's enforced and to what ends! Outside of that, things are going to be very ugly, and your not going to know with much certainty who is who, who is the enemy!
     
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  4. duane

    duane Monkey+++

    Problem is that Crump has made a few hundred million suing people, law officers are in jail for doing the right thing and the BLM mob rules. We have reached a place in our society that the Ferguson effect has now reached the point that people are dying as the police have been shown time after time that even if what they do is legal and are following procedure, they can end up left out to dry and go to prison. The ultimate proof of that is the saint george case. He died of a drug overdose after refusing to stay in the police car and be transported, was combative, and the police were waiting for medical transport to arrive when he died..None of which was supported in the officers trials or civil rights cases. Next cop walks into a situation like that, turns around and walks out and lets him die in the store of an over dose.
     
  5. Motomom34

    Motomom34 Monkey+++

    When I was training with CERT one day the team selected was weak. We were role playing but still this person was indisive and seemed unsure when we started the drill. I lasted about 10 minutes then started taking charge, giving directions and giving assignments. The instructor stopped the exercise and reamed me out for stepping up and not allowing the team leader to lead. I will never forget that, it was the day I realized chain of command is a huge thing but.... when a leader is weak, people die.

    After Columbine LEO, SWAT teams all trained to put the threat down quickly. First officer there is to go in and stop the threat.
    @uri-ki is correct about Parkland, officers waited outside. Same with Pulse night club where I think it took officers 3 hours to breach the building. Has training has changed to blindly follow the chain of command model? I wonder if the authority to use what you know to handle the situation been suspended?

    I like this thinking but those officers were told not to engage and continued to wait. My gut says put down the threat fast and administer aid. They were either cowards or blindly followed orders.

    Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. John 15:13
     
  6. Ura-Ki

    Ura-Ki Grampa Monkey

    Don't forget, the SCOTUS rules that LEO have no duty to risk life and limb for you and I, and I see this as a part of how policing has changed!
    I also know several departments have flat out said Fuck That, if you wear the badge and gun, YOU WILL live up to the legacy of "Serve and Protect" and the dept will always have your back!

    This situation mainly effects the big cities, especially the Blue ones, and the poor cities and towns, where the Mayor and or Gov'ner elects the Chief of Police, and must follow the rules laid down by their master, usually to I'll effect, so one must also look at the politics of an area to suss out the failings!
     
  7. SB21

    SB21 Monkey+++

    A weak leader can/will get him/herself and others killed ,,, thats why there always needs to be a second in command . Me being the loner I am ,,, if I found myself in that situation ,, with an indecisive or weak leader ,, and got an ass chewing for trying save lives ,, including my own ,,, I'd vacate the group ,, and fend for myself .
     
  8. Gator 45/70

    Gator 45/70 Monkey+++

    Damn we gonna armchair this to death?
    1 guy at first in the white shirt that ran in and came back with a new part in his hair should run for chief.
    The chief of police wouldn't be elected as a dog catcher today
     
  9. Bandit99

    Bandit99 Monkey+++ Site Supporter+

    First, I think the Law Enforcement thinks, acts and trains differently from the military. In most cases this is good; however, in the case of an Active Shooter it is insane to wait. We are not talking about hostage situations or robbery but deranged individuals that have one purpose in mind. You need to act.

    I do NOT think the Law Enforcement officers should be brought up on charges however their leadership should certainly be dismissed (there is a price for leadership) or demoted and training should be changed to reflect reality - meaning - 'Time = Lives' so get in there and kill the SOB!

    Unfortunately, these types of events can and will reflect badly on ALL Law Enforcement. The profession of Law Enforcement is a dangerous one, sadly that comes with the turf. Hopefully, Sherrif and Police department around the country have taken note and change their policies and training to handle this better, God forbid, if it should happen again.

    For example, the Dutch military almost collapsed due to their actions in Srebrenica (1995). While not publicly made known, numerous militaries throughout the world lost faith and trust in the Dutch and would no longer act in conjunction with them. Why? Bottom line is no one trusted them when the metal met the meat - period. They were quietly ostracized. The Dutch knew it and were frantic to change opinions and regain their pride, but it gutted their own military. Yes, they were deeply aware of this too.

    We now have pretty much the same scenario with our Law Enforcement agencies. We have lost faith in them. How this turns out is anyone's guess, but they need to change to ensure better outcomes and to keep our faith and they damn well need to change now.

    EDIT: First, we learned we had a corrupt and political FBI and now we have gutless law enforcement with blood on their hands...what is coming next in 2022?
     
  10. DKR

    DKR Raconteur of the first stripe

    If you chose to live and die "By the Book" - you will mostly Die.

    This from my CO in a combat unit. I guess he had too many tours in SEA to put up with much BS....
     
  11. snake6264

    snake6264 Combat flip flop douchebag

    If you are unwilling to act when needed We no longer need you
    We were always given trust to act as needed without the Chain if the situation warranted
     
  12. Tempstar

    Tempstar Monkey+++

    There were two separate things here: The first responding officers I fault for not acting in a decisive manner to eliminate the threat, or at least attempt to.
    Once command was on scene then the burden was shifted to commanders on the scene and disobedience would have resulted in loss of qualified immunity, termination, law suits, etc.
    Clearly, training failed and command was inept.
     
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  13. Tully Mars

    Tully Mars Metal weldin' monkey

    [​IMG]
     
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  14. Thunder5Ranch

    Thunder5Ranch Monkey+++

    That is where "Unless Otherwise Directed" and malfunctioning coms come into play. What kind of person stands in a hallways listening to children die, while following orders to wait! This was not a hostage situation where time was on their side and things could be negotiated.
     
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  15. Ura-Ki

    Ura-Ki Grampa Monkey

    And that brings up a whole nother issue, How in Hell did the Coms fail? What kind of dept are they running where their coms are anything but the best our tax dollars can buy? I call Bullshit here, I have had Walki-Talkies that were far more reliable then what those cops were using, and I know the Cop Shops use WAY better gear then I can afford! I'm thinking there was a whole bunch of Coms Chatter they don't want the Public to know about, so they claim Coms went Down!
     
  16. Thunder5Ranch

    Thunder5Ranch Monkey+++

    Been my opinion for years that police radio chatter should be recorded. There was a time that would not have been doable digital storage for audio only on a server could hold years if not decades of the talk. If nothing else it be worthwhile to put things in historical context in the future. Seems there are always more questions arising about the conduct of that day and so far damn few answers.
     
  17. Ura-Ki

    Ura-Ki Grampa Monkey

    The coms chatter should have consisted of the first officers radioing in that they arrived on scene and we're going in hot, followed by a successful breach, found the shooter, and taken him out and calling for fire and ambulance crews to move into the school and start triage, all in under 4 min of the first arrival! Anything other then that, especially asking permission is bullshit!
     
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    Resource

    Sun Tzu The Art of War 2015-02-08

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    Posted By: stg58, Feb 8, 2015 in category: Weaponry & Tactics
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