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Does anyone do Martial or Grappling?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by gillman7, Feb 8, 2007.

  1. gillman7

    gillman7 Monkey+++

    I was looking at a thread in General Survival, and it got me to thinking. So rather than hijacking his thread, I thought I would start this and ask everyone.

    Do you train or study any type of hand to hand combat? If so, what have you found effective?

    I have not really had any formalized training, but have worked as a bouncer for a couple of years, and work in light security part time now. I am looking at taking some classes in ju jitsu, and using the treadmill more to tone and build up some endurance.

    I am sparring occasionally with my son, who is doing some amatuer events in the cage fighting events. His first fight was a King of the Cage event, he was not on the card, but got to be one of the warm up amatuer events. Here is a picture of him and his opponent. His original opponent and the guy he eventually fought both cancelled so he had to fight 2 weight classes above him. He is 5'9", and 175 lbs, and his opponent was 6'1" and weighed 205. (He lost, but I got to hand it to him to get in the ring!)

    Do you work out, or are we in trouble when we run out of bullets?

    Attached Files:

  2. snowbyrd

    snowbyrd Latet anguis in herba

    Ju Jitsu/Judo, good combo for me, started real young but haven't practiced in years. Violent, nasty self defence is what I,uh, advocate.
    The type of thing you can't spar with, sparing IMHO teaches you to pull your punches. In Judo you can practice,,,,falling down and landing properly (first). LOL
  3. GaryBrun

    GaryBrun Monkey+++

    <object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/D3K-mrlYG7Y"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/D3K-mrlYG7Y" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>
  4. sci

    sci Monkey+++

    I haven't trained in over a year, but for a while I trained in mixed martial arts; particularly Muay Thai techniques and no-gi submission grappling.

    As much as I love the martial arts, I have fallen out of shape and lack the confidence I once had... I'm 5'11", 200lbs, and out of shape. I suppose I should get back on to working out (if school and work don't kill me first). It's been hard because I haven't had the money for club membership, nor have I had the time. Maybe I should start a blog to guilt-trip myself into working out again?

    My true passion in martial arts is the Filipino Martial Arts, particularly Kali and the smooth, non-fancy tecniques that can be applied to hand-to-hand, knife, and stick combat. It's a very black and white approach to martial arts with the idea of Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do; that is, you take on the most effective and efficient means of combat, not the most fancy or necessarily traditional approach. I highly recommend "The Tao of Jeet Kune Do," by Bruce Lee for anyone interested in the martial arts. It gives a great perspective on why it is the most physical and personal art form, in that every movement is an expression of the human body.
  5. Blackjack

    Blackjack Monkey+++

    No matter how good you are, when you run out of bullets.... games over.

    But yes I did. From age 12 to about age 32. I'm 38 now.... and very much out of shape.

    Started with Tae Kwon Do, Judo, and wrestling in school, went to boxing while in college. Won my division at Indiana Golden Gloves in 87. Joined the army, got on the all army Europe team. While in the army in Germany, was introduced to a variety of styles, my favorite at the time being muay thai. Got to do some mma events while there (back then it wasn't organized like it is now, but you could make a little money on the side).

    To show for it, my nose has been broken a couple times, I've got a bad knee, bad wrists, one bad knuckle, a few minor scars from stitches, a jaw that inexplicably locks up every so often, and my two front teeth are made of porcelain.

    Every time I watch the fights on tv, I think about starting up again, but I always end up talking myself out of it.

    For my take on what "style" to train in:

    I believe any fighting art or sport enhances your fighting ability to some degree.... with that said.....

    It's been my experience that anything labeled an "art" like tae kwon do, various karate/kung fu styles, etc, are far less useful for real fighting than the combat sports like boxing, muay thai, shoot fighting. The more restrictions you remove from the event the better. Gillman, I think training with your son for nhb fighting is probably the best thing you could do.

    Finally the world is figuring out what actually works for fighting because of events like the ufc. The old misconceptions about "martial arts masters" are finally being exposed for the bs they are.

    Training is great, but the single most important thing is to actually fight. Get in the ring and take your lumps, it's the only way you learn. There are a million black belt "masters" today that have never actually experienced a fight, yet they claim to be experts on winning one.
  6. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    nAgrressive mean bastid in the vid...
    A lot of what hes' showing in the video above c/would be lethal ( head strikes). As a bouncer or a cop you are forced into grappling.a civillian should beable to avoid? Once with (the guy sitting crosslegged ) he says" oh you what about my wife,?:" I break his leg....So he breaks that guys leg for making a comment about his wife, the guys two buddys jump up, he goes into his kill kill kill routine, Mean Mofo fights bubba off the rest of his life..behind bars...Lethal force is lethal force guns knives or barehands.

    Thatwas a truly frightening display of serious "combat martial arts".Marines are big on the heel stomp to the head its a lethal finishing move..

    Am I unprepared to fight this idiot: totally. Would I get up and walk out to the car and find another cheap dive to have a beer in.Yes.Before he has a chance to draw me into an asskicking to impress his dojo buddies. Would that be "unmanly"? possibly but I value my teeth and the current position of the bones in my head more.( I really hate maxilofacial surgery).
    Plus we got more of the I do this, this, and this while the opponent is motion less.

    Do I ever want to be in the same state as this wanker?:, No.
    But no matter how tough he is, his number will come up , people got friends , friends with guns. Or a bartender may take exception to him stomping the locals.
    After he wades through 3 of the macho buddies who want to give it a go, the fourth weasley guy who spends all his time inthe library; will come out of the mens roomtucking in his shirt and cap this guy with a snubby .38 while he's pounding his buddies head into the edge of the table...I don'tsee any smarts in starting a streetfight, as he put it no rules for you or your opponent...
    rant off...
    (You guys practice this kinda stuff?)
    I agree a couple of my daugters "boyfriends have been "black belts" of one form or another, they throw down a pretty mean kata, but weren't overly intimidating and wouldn'tstand achance against the brutal " chainsaw massacre with barehands guy" above.
  7. sci

    sci Monkey+++

    Well, I think the problem comes with training only in a particular style... where you learn kata and never use techniques you learned. In the mixed martial arts club I trained in, we were allowed to spar and use our techniques, and it was always a test of the mind to know what to do. The best thing to do is to train actually using the techniques with another person, but it's important to pace oneself so that no injuries occur, and for one to know their limits.

    The traditional styles are filled with nonsense moves that are fancy and look pretty, but are not useful in combat. I do agree with the use of "combat sports," but I prefer to pick and choose techniques that I am most comfortable with. As much as I am comfortable with the wide and powerful Muay Thai kicks, I'm not so comfortable with the Muay Thai teep kicks, and etc.
  8. snowbyrd

    snowbyrd Latet anguis in herba

    Hey Tango3

    In the video he said he 'had been around' and a bouncer. You are right, would not have lasted long using those techniques, not with all the legal ramifacations. However, in SHTF or 'street fight' fight for yo' life stuff, some of his techeques (sp) might work, forget head butts yep butt heads, cuz you will probably do as much or more damage to yourself. I love his sound effects tho.

    Hey, it might all work on a bunch of drunks, Action faster than Reaction, and [booze] [booze] fools are just that. Just for you T-3[tng2]

    ha ha oops, kinda off topic [dunno]
  9. BAT1

    BAT1 Cowboys know no fear

    In my youth I trained under a Air force pilot and physics major in Kaja Kempo. [Street kung fu] I remember having gone to Fort Smith Arkansas and we took team competition. I got best weapon with the Nun Chucks. I sat and dressed out with the now famous Chuck Norris. Watched he and Bill super foot Wallace fight. I've actively practice Qigong every week [like Thai Chi]. It keeps you in shape, keeps your confidence high, and came in very handy when two jerks tried to mug me in Houston. We did some fence board fighting, I won and they went to jail. I suggest that every one get in shape, for we may have to run far and fast some time. Even if they take your gun, you still have a weapon. Thanks Jay Andis!

    Chance favors the prepared mind, and body.
  10. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    You are right I simply cannot /willnot arguewith you "everyone" should be a practicing martial artist. However the reality is I took a year of "shorin ryu" while in the airforce before having a disabling stroke, running anywhere is pretty much "QBI"( quite bloody Impossible) I backpack with a bit of a limp and am limited in range by pain, but I can and should try to aimprove my fitness; and plan on riding the moutain bike farther this year. I am not on oxygen, but otherwise I am in the slow buffalo category, The herd will simply move on... Somethings simply are not survivable, I can use my brains and hands until then.

    [werd][tng2][whiteflag]I mean christ every one of his scenarios ended with lethal strkes.:oops:

    Like the psycho in the movie "stripes"

    "Hey francis"
    "Don't call me that; I'll kill you... "
    "You look at me; i'll killl you... ":oops:
  11. gillman7

    gillman7 Monkey+++

    Anybody touches my stuff, I'll kill ya

    Any you homos touch me, I'll kill ya

    Lighten up Francis!
  12. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    There are a lot of good styles out there but IMO the most important thing is the instructor you choose. I know when was looking for a dojo for Tinas son we went and checked out some of them and one in particular had an instructor with a full room of trophies and magazine covers he had been on and stuff showing where he had won so many national and international competitions. After a bit talking to him though it became VERY obvious to both of us (we have both bounced in places where mopping up blood was a common task) that the guy was top notch at fighting for points when there were a lot of rules on the fighters but if it came to a fight for ones life with anyone that knew what they were doing he would havebeen screwed.

    We later found a dojo where the guy didnt have any tropheys or anything and didnt even advertise the fact that he held the rank of 'suki' and was the first if not only American to achive that rank. He was an excelent teacher and knew how to fight and train people to fight to protect themselves from a mortal threat, so thats where we took him....and I made sure to set in on a lot of the classes as well and work out with them when I could.

    I have trained very little formaly (in a dojo) but havemostly learned a variaty of styles when I was younger by sparing with people who practiced them and we always sparred with no pads and while you pulled on any kill shots, it was pretty normal for one or both people to limp away quite often with minor bones broken or bleeding.

    Ju jitsu is an excelent style in my opinion and in general even with my size I like 'soft' styles that rely on pressure points and body mechanics and such with lettle need/emphases on strength or brute force. My main reason for this is just that no matter how strong you are or how big you are you will always find someone bigger and stronger, so I like methods where strength dosnt much matter.

    Judo is excelent IF you are faceing a single attacker but a lot of the things used tie you up with them and so if they have buddies with them then half the stuff would make you to vulnerable if you used it IMO, so it can be great as a supplemental or base to work from then can go from there.
  13. Blackjack

    Blackjack Monkey+++

    Get ready for a long winded one, once I get started talking about fighting, I'm gonna be up a while.

    First of all the guy in the video is an idiot. He manages some useful stuff, but it's still mixed with crap. Just like Massad Ayoob.

    I never meant to suggest that only one "style" should be learned, quite the opposite. Learn everything, keep what works for you and throw out the rest.

    I'll go over my own personal take on what's good and bad about the styles and sports I have personal experience with as they relate to actual fighting.

    1) Tae Kwon Do - TKD is a lot of fun and low contact. I can recommend it for us "older" folks to stay limber and in shape, but not for fighting. It's also a good starting point, especially for children.

    The Good - Having it as my starting point, I think it gives you a natural feel for energy transferrence (using the power in your legs and hips). This is difficult for most people to really get the hang of and it really makes a difference in how much power you can deliver in almost any type of attack.

    The Bad - Wastes a lot of time on impractical techniques (hi block, square block, spearhand, etc, bla bla. Sparring teaches you a bad habit of not putting power behind your strikes, but just quickly making contact for a point, and since action stops at the contact, it also teaches you that leaving yourself open after a strike is not an issue. It also does not adress grappling which is where most fights end up.

    Conclusion - A good building block, but NOT NEARLY a total solution. Learn what you can from it and move on. Good for starting children in.

    2) Judo - Good starting point also, especially for children.

    The Good - Teaches reasonably good skills at grappling with someone, keeping your balance while removing theirs. As a kid, I thought judo was pretty whimpy, but oddly enough, the basic throws/takedowns and control have come in very handy on several occasions in my life, especially when it came to having to take down and control a violent person without striking them. Joint locks, chokes and strangulations (difference being blocking airflow or bloodflow) are always good to know.

    The Bad - The same with any non-striking sport, you can ignore hands, elbows, knees that would ordinarily be poised to do you some damage. While joint locks are taught, many cannot be used in competition, so that's bad. Also, if your not careful, you can become too reliant on using your opponents gi (uniform) for leverage where that leverage is rarely available in a fight.

    Conclusion - Another good building block, very good for kids as you can get them into it very young and it's relatively safe. Learn what you can, integrate it into your skills, but move on.

    3) American Wrestling:

    The Good - Great at building some grappling skills and some takedowns.

    The Bad - Teaches instinctively staying off your back while an opponent is on top of you which can be fatal. Also ignores joint locks and chokes which are illegal in competition, as well as ignoring the possibility that an opponent may strike you instead of grab you.

    Conclusion - Maybe a decent building block for kids, but overall they'll get much more out of judo. As long as you keep it's weaknesses in mind though, you can get some good out of it.

    4) Boxing - Every fighter needs some experience in boxing. I can't say enough good about my experience with it. Nothing mystical about it, just good old fashioned american whoopass.

    The Good - Teaches you to effectively deal with incoming punches and counter. Teaches you that getting punched isn't the end of the world, you can deal with it and give back a better one. Teaches you to be mentally tough. Good footwork skills and punching in combinations are priceless, and boxing excels at both.

    The Bad - Ignores grappling, elbows, knees completely.

    Conclusion - It's a priceless facet of fighting that should be incorporated into everones skill set, but not the ultimate answer.

    5) Muay Thai (Thai boxing):

    The Good - Everything! For stand up fighting it can't be beat. Teaches great skills with elbows and knees which are totally unknown and ignored by most people (at least they used to be until UFC got popular). Great skills with hands and feet as well.

    The Bad - Doesn't take headbutts into account during clinches and doesn't use any takedowns or ground fighting.

    Conclusion - This one is a necessity for any well rounded fighter.

    6) Misc (Various Kung Fu styles, kenpo, goju ryu, aikido, ninjustsu, some others I can't even remember the names of) - I've had brief exposure to a multitude of various styles that to be honest, just didn't impress me at all at the time, so I didn't pursue any substantive training with them. I'm sure they all have their good points at least to some degree, but I can't honestly give an evaluation based on experience other than.... they just didn't impress me as an important set of skills for the well rounded fighter. And some of them, especially some of the kung fu (chinese) styles had techniques I found to be ridiculous, and that conclusion was usually confirmed upon sparring with the practitioners. I'm sorry to offend any kung fu folks out there, I'm sure it teaches you a lot about balance, focus, and flexibility, but leave the "ox jaw" strikes at home. The mantis, the crane, the tiger, and the drunkard are all entertaining and pretty, but they have no business in the ring with a fighter.

    7) Which now brings us to mma, nhb, cage, pit, ufc, pride, whatever you want to call it. It's not really a style or a skill set but a test of them, which is why I like it so much. It separates the real skills from the bullshit and the real fighters from the pretenders. A gym/dojo that teaches everything from a "ufc" perspective is about as useful as you can get for real unarmed combat training. It is the pinnacle of unarmed combat training bar none.

    I'm so glad that in my lifetime I got to see something like this become popular and is finally beginning to shed the light of truth on the martial arts hocus pocus of the past. Being a fighter has nothing to do with eastern spirituality, Mr. Dillons pressure point systems are glorified accupressure, Bruce Lee was an actor not a fighter, and Steven Segal can only "aikido" his girlfriends. The early stages of a grand awakening is occuring and its beautiful. People are finally realizing you can't learn to fight without getting the crap beat out of you a few times. Fighting skills can't be taught by looking at kata posters and practicing kung fu line dancing. And opponents don't hold still while you elegantly place your 19 point combination joint manipulation bullcrap on them.

    And Massad Ayoob can kiss my monkey butt!!
  14. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    One thing I will mention in regards to some of the 'fancy' and 'rediculous' styles (one that comesto mind that I have used being the monkey style of kung fu) is that while they DEFINATLY would not be great as an only option they can be incredably useful as that odd tool to have in the kit. A couple of times when I have been 'sparring' (what I and the sparring partners did most folks would consider a fairly serious fight since the only rules were not to intetionaly kill or cause permenant damage, broken bones were fine) and getting whooped on I would drop down into a monkey stance where your butt is lower than your knees and a lot of you movement is through rolls from the ground and while the other person was bewildered for a moment trying to figure out if I had lost my mind would have the chance to roll into their knees and with shoulders on the ground kick both feet into their soalr plexis or jaw. It also puts you in aposition that very few folks can figure out how to efectively attack.

    I just mention this as an ilistration of that some of the styles that in general would be or at the least seem useless can be devistating if you can just switch from something they are used to to all of a sudden doing something unexpected, kind of like the old trick of when you know a confrontation is going to come to blows fliping a lit cigaret at them so they instinctively try to block it and not the incoming first blow.
  15. Blackjack

    Blackjack Monkey+++

    MM.... everything has some good you can take from it. Hell, even ballet classes have benefits to the fighter.
  16. GaryBrun

    GaryBrun Monkey+++

    That was Bas Rutten in that StrretFighting Self Defense video

    For fun do a search for "Bas Rutten + maxim" on youtube. I ain't giving y'all a link. It is a little on the poutymouth side, but the funniest thing I seen in Self defense videos

    His MMA fight against Kevin Randleman for the Heavy Weight UFC title was probably the most impressive fight I have ever seen. Granted I have watched only maybe 12 -15 on the "best of ufc" dvd my buddy got.
  17. ricdoug

    ricdoug Monkey+++

    My wife and I still workout and spar. Along with being a Recon Scout Sniper, I was also a CCI (Close Combat Instructor). This was replaced by the MAPS Program http://www.survivalprimer.com/Hand_to_Hand_HTML_2002/Marine_Mart_Arts_All_Docs_149p.pdf .
    My wife is a Black Belt in Philippine Escrima and Arnis. Before the USMC, I boxed Golden Gloves Open Class and also went to College on a Wrestling Scholarship. All that said, I'd prefer to just Cap a Perp with my 1911. It saves skin on the knuckles. Ric
  18. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    "kung fu line dancing"[LMAO][LMAO]
    Blackjack...You've had alot of exposure sounds like you knowwhat you're talking about, I went thru life without paying much attention to this subject, so seagals akido is all pretty dancing? but it makes for a great movie??[LMAO][booze]
    plus he always finishes up with alittle "muay-colt 1911" ..:oops:
  19. Blackjack

    Blackjack Monkey+++

    As a whole, my opinion of aikido is it's not very practical. You'll notice that in the big money mma events, no "aikido masters" have claimed any of the prize money, however my comment was directed more at Segal personally rather than his MA style though.
    He's not a fighter, he's a dancer. And he has beaten up his girlfiriends on a couple occassions, which really annoys me.
  20. Blackjack

    Blackjack Monkey+++

    Look.... take Jackie Chan for instance. I LOVE Jackie Chan. He's a phenomenal martial artist, a good actor, funny, one heck of a stuntman and acrobat. But he's the first person that will tell you he's not a fighter. That's probably why I like him so much. The choreographed scenes look great in a movie, but that's all they are, they're not practical in a fight and he readily admits that.

    People like Segal and Van Damme confuse their "dances" with reality and think their tough..... and they are not.
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