Handloading and the Geneva and Hague accords

I was just pricing reloading supplies and I started looking at fmj bullets for my .30's. Then I realized I do not belong to any organization answerable to signatories of the Geneva or Hague conventions. Does anyone else see the morality of using soft point, expanding bullets to defend one's self in a life or death situation when there would be no expectation of a response by any law enforcement. Would you use what was available or what would work best to resolve the situation?

 

You use only soft point/expanding bullets?

 

That is my feeling also. I was harkening back to Mas Ayoob's "In the Gravest Extreme". He was adamant about not using any reloads for self defense let alone hollow points or expanding rounds. Of course that is in a world where you can expect an LE response (and lawyers). My P.O.V. is once a threat and it's target is identified, resolve it by the most effective, expedient way possible with as little danger to one's self.. Just wanted some feedback from others. I think it's called external validation.

 

The only ammo I load that I won't use FMJ with is .22 caliber stuff from .22 Hornet to .220 Wilson Arrow.
Everything larger that I load is effective enough with FMJ and good shot placement.
I do have some handgun calibers where over-penetration with FMJ is a concern.

 

Geneva and Hague only apply to nations at war. Civil unrest is a totally different matter altogether. If someone is shooting at me I don't care about what ammo I'm using as long as it works!

 

The way I see it, not shooting an attacker with the deadliest ammunition available is just another way of giving them another shot at you. If it wasn't for the kick, I'd carry a little something in 40mm.

Some people are really tough.

Why one cop carries 145 rounds of ammo on the job

 

I know a man who handloads for his 44 Mag home defense handgun with plastic shotshells loaded with pieces of cut brazing rod. Makes for a very awesome snake load with a slice and dice like pattern. He doesn't have to worry about over penetration thru multiple walls. From the patterns I have seen at 10, 20, and 30 feet I would not want to be on the receiving end. A lawyer friend of his told him to never ever admit they were specially loaded for self defense, but hold to the snake load story and having forgot that's what the gun was loaded with after his last fishing trip. Some squeamish liberal types might feel these loads were cruel and unusual and constitute a valid reason for a civil monetary law suit.

 

Phase plasma rifle in 40 watt range.

 

We hand load pretty much every thing here, except 5.56 and 9 MM. We prefer high accuracy and range with the best design we can find, if it happens to be Hollow point, or soft point, then bonus! Where things get rich, I hand load defensive ammo for my carry 10 MM pistols, only because good Defensive ammo is still hard to find, or not up to the expectations of this cal! I'm very careful about what and how I load it, not that that makes it lawyer proof, but it's the best I can do. Once the break down of rule of law happens, then I don't care any longer about what any one thinks about what I use! Many of my weapons are hard to find good ammo for, or what's commonly available isn't that good, or mil spec only, so to effectiely employ them, they need to be hand loaded for!

 

I agree with odd Calibre....such international treaties concerning the laws of armed conflict only concern nations at war, to reduce unnecessary suffering between the combatants. It is a rather quaint anachronism...that led to advisories being included in the packaging of .22 Hornet 'survival rifles' issued to USAF air crew not to use them to avoid apprehension if shot down...that was what the Colt 1911 was for.

Law enforcement of course never had such restrictions placed upon them...criminals intent on using deadly force earned the right to be shot with the most deadly means to stop their deadly intentions decisively and immediately.

Civil war and civil unrest...Hague and Geneva don't apply...its a case of come as you are, with what you have.

 

Both the Hague Peace Conference, ‘formal conventions’ of 1899 and 1907, AND the Geneva Conventions (plural)* of 1949 (et al) — and as amended in 1977** — continue to be applied by the United States military to all typical small arms ammunition, with only one current exception:

Since the early 1990’s American snipers have been using either one of two Sierra Matchking BTHP bullets; however, neither Matchking centerfire rifle bullet is of a conventional, soft-nosed, ‘Dum-Dum’ design; and neither bullet profile is - in a strict sense - an expanding or, ‘superfluously harmful’ design.

All this being said ...... The international wartime restrictions on the use of (true) 'DumDum' bullets does NOT apply to either American law enforcement, or to the general American public.

The dumbass New Jersey politicians (and their dumbass New Jersey gun laws) aside, the ready availability and civilian use of JHP pistol ammunition actually offers a distinct advantage to all American law enforcement personnel — Except, of course, for those police officers who are unfortunate enough to have to work in New Jersey!

Why? Because it's much more difficult for a JHP pistol round to be able to penetrate a police officer's Level III vest than it is for an FMJ bullet to part the same Kevlar weave, and pass on through to finally puncture the wearer's body. (Hence the longstanding difficulty that bulletproof vests have had trying to stop pointy 9 x 19mm FMJ bullets.)


* It is the Geneva Convention (singular) that usually refers to a 1949 ratification of the three previous Geneva Conventions concerning the humane treatment of both adversely affected civilian populations, and prisoners of war.

** Although NOT a signator of either the 1899 Hague, ‘formal conventions’ or the 1977 Geneva, ‘Protocol I’, the United States has formally acknowledged the validity of each of these international restrictions on the use of, ‘superfluously harmful’ small arms ammunition; and continues to uphold the Hague Peace Conference restrictions on small arms ammunition that were signed by the United States in 1907.

 

I hand load all my hand-gun ammo, especially for defensive purposes. I prefer "knowing" what's in a case rather than trusting QC at a factory.

 

I think it was during the second WW the Japanese used wooden bullets when they were out of lead, but more than that the wood was contaminated and made the fragmented infection worse . the wound didn't have to kill right away, but 9 times out of 10 the infection did. Or so I'm told .
Bottom line ,If it comes down to it and I've used up the several hundred Lbs of lead I already have , any thing I can melt into molds and or turn on my lathe will have to do as long as I have primers and powder to put behind them.
If one knows nothing about doing these things ,with the all the information currently available ,has a great deal to regret should the time come, having done nothing .
Though I am retired and could sit at starbucks and do nothing, I am over whelmed with things that need done and I need to learn.

 

For the visitors

Expanding bullets were given the name Dum-dum, or dumdum, after an early British example produced in the Dum Dum Arsenal, near Calcutta, India by Captain Neville Bertie-Clay. There were several expanding bullets produced by this arsenal for the .303 British cartridge, including soft point and hollow point designs.


evolution of the concept.


.303 Canadian Cordite Mk IV and V Rounds

finally
wadcutter 'target' rounds

please be careful with these, accidentally loading these backwards in the cartridge case can be very dangerous.


I have no idea how this would work in a firearm, it seems it would be extremely dangerous....

 

I have several stripper clips loaded with wooden bullets for the Mauser 98 in 7X57 and in multiple colors! Rumer has it that the different bullet colors indicated a poison or indicated a type of wood that could cause problems to a victims health! I had posted a thread on another forum and got all kinds of claims, so I disassembled a few and discoverd they have ether a lead or steel core, and that some of these bullets were made of Ewu, and others made of Beach!
One theory is that a hit from one of these bullets would not only cause a vicious wound, but that the fragments would injure medics and surgeons during treatment! No idea what if any of this is true, but it's intersting to ponder! Grand Dad believed the poison theory but also believed some if these were made to provide basic training and practice during the shortages of lead for manufactures!!! Be and his brothers test fired a clip of two of these and the accuracy was pretty good out to maybe 75 yards, and some of the stuff they believed to be practice stuff was basically only good to 50 feet! I hadn't tried any my self, so I have no idea, but it opens the doer to experiments. My thoughts would be the Sabot idea, take a .22 cal bullet and some how lathe turn bullets to .308 diameter, or a 7mm with a .338 sabot! About the only way I can see the use of wood! I also could see pressed paper being used to form bullets!