Is it OK to lie to NAZIs?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by fl4848, Sep 15, 2021.


  1. fl4848

    fl4848 Monkey+

    No one likes to lie. Your parents tell you not to lie. Your school teachers tell you not to lie. It probably says not to lie in the Bible. (Actually, I'm not sure about that. I'll have to Google that one.) But, generally, it's a good practice to not lie, because it will come back around to bite you when the truth floats to the service inevitably.

    But, say you're a Jew in Nazi Germany. You know the Nazis are coming around door-to-door to collect Jews for the concentration camps. You can either tell the Nazis you're German and not be collected for the concentration camp, or you can hold true to your personal integrity and tell the Nazis you're a Jew but you will certainly be sent to the camps. In your opinion, is it OK to lie to the Nazi in this scenario, and tell them that you're German?
     
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  2. SB21

    SB21 Monkey+++

    Whatever you have to do to survive . If you're wanting to survive.
    If you know they'll lie to you ,, then you owe them nothing ,, an eye for an eye ,, I'm pretty sure that's in the Bible.
     
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  3. Dont

    Dont Just another old gray Jarhead Monkey

    It comes down to that, having the "Armor of G-D" on, when one confronts evil.
    In the bible, it says that G-D hates a lier. It is one of those sin's ranking right up there with the killing of the innocent.
    So, if one were to tell a lie, (sin) with the armor of G-d in place, (protection) then would not that lie lesson the protection of the armor?
     
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  4. fl4848

    fl4848 Monkey+

    I was reading this website about Rahab's lie. Apparently she lied about spies that she was hiding. There is debate about whether it was OK for her to lie, because the lie brought about good:

    Is It OK to Lie (like Rahab did) to Bring About Good?

    To be honest, I never really understood what "Thou shalt not bear false witness" meant. To me, it sounds like a person is on trial and they are saying that their neighbor is a witch, and they know that their neighbor is not a witch. So that would certainly be lying, and not only would it be lying, it would be lying of the worst kind, because the lier knows the ramification of the lie will bring about the certain death of their neighbor. But are all lies the same? Lying to a Nazi is similar to lying to the devil. If lying prevents you and your family from being sent to certain death, maybe that lie is forgivable and permissible by god? Seems like not all lies are the same, depending on the circumstances.
     
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  5. fl4848

    fl4848 Monkey+

    Another thing I wonder about is if the person knows what the ramifications are of the lie (what the certain outcome will be depending on whether they lie or do not lie) does that change the nature of the lie? Like in Rahab's case, she knows her lie will bring about good, so therefore it seemed like it was acceptable for her to lie in God's eyes. He certainly didn't condemn her to hell for lying. Some may even say that he wanted her to lie to bring about good in the world.
     
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  6. oil pan 4

    oil pan 4 Monkey+++

    Great man once told me "lie to the pig that lies to you".
    To me that meant anyone who can dish it out also should expect the same.
     
  7. Nazis didn't need to ask, they had access to all kinds of local records. And the tablets Moses brought down from Mt. Sinai did say Thou shalt not bear false witness. Which is telling a lie. And an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth was Old testament. New Testament teaches a different philosophy.
     
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  8. Dont

    Dont Just another old gray Jarhead Monkey

    More of those Nazi minions needed to fear for their lives each and every time they ventured out to collect those for the long ride to the camps. Just my view of those times. And?
     
  9. duane

    duane Monkey+++

    Way I read the latest word from the Fuhrer, it is illegal for you to lie, but the police etc can lie to you with little fear of punishment. Nancy can declare a 50 year old man in Florida as a terrorist as he supported the March on Washington. At the same time she can excuse the action of someone trying to set fire to a police station or police car that is occupied as just enthused legal protest.

    Served on Grand Jury a few years ago and learned 2 facts. Anything you say will be used against you and they ignore context. Really pi**** the cops off when someone just gives name, rank, and serial number. Second almost all case are selected by the County Attorney in this state and usually has two factors, he couldn't get a plea deal or it was politically wise to push this case. Came out of the whole 6 month process with the feeling that justice is not only blind, but deaf and dumb and should be shown with a rubber stamp rather than a set of scales. Child gets into his mother's stash, jail for reckless endangerment, but no real attempt to punish pusher who supplied drugs or runner and sources.. 6 years for causing a death DUI, but out in 5 with a plea deal for murder on the street reduced to manslaughter in a plea deal and with right lawyer.

    Stay out of crowds and trust very few people. Pray for God's help, we as a nation sure need all the help we can get.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2021
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  10. SB21

    SB21 Monkey+++

    I keep to myself a right good bit ,, I figure that'll keep me a little farther from sin .
     
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  11. Wildbilly

    Wildbilly Monkey+++

    Lying is not necessarily bearing false witness, just as killing is not necessarily murder. NOBODY, including GOD loves someone that is unable to bend the rules when needed...there are names for people like that and they usually get what's coming to them. Luckily for us, GOD is a forgiving GOD!
     
  12. duane

    duane Monkey+++

    Amen Wildbilly, but we still argue, and haven't yet had access to the original document, what the Commandment meant on killing. Murder is one word and bad thoughts come with it, but kill would seem to indicate that somethings, defense of country, protecting from evil, etc, has a whole different meaning.
     
  13. Ura-Ki

    Ura-Ki Grampa Monkey

    To lie is a sin, however even God makes exceptions if the reason is sound and good! We are given tools to fight the evils of this earth, deception is a more apt method to protect ones self with out committing a sin! Same with killing, we are taught that to kill another is a sin, and yet we are also taught we have the moral obligation to fight evil and to defend those who are weak or unable to defend themselves, up to and including killing! That's not to excuse murder, and one must understand the differences!

    For the above question, the JEWS didn't know what was going to happen to them, the Nazis told them all kinds of lies, made promises they had no intention of keeping, and generally could be counted on as false! However, unlike today, they didn't have ways or means to communicate warnings to each other, so when the troops showed up to collect folks, that was pretty much it! They didn't even ask, you were already known to be a Jew!
     
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  14. Seawolf1090

    Seawolf1090 Retired Curmudgeonly IT Monkey Founding Member

    Many Jews were German.
     
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  15. oldawg

    oldawg Monkey+++

    As a Methodist I was taught that a lie that harmed an innocent would be weighted towards mortal and lying to the unjust would be weighted towards the venial with plenty of scripture pointing to that. Even some absolutist disagree on those points. Myself, I believe in a just and forgiving God. Rahab is just one example.
     
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  16. Gator 45/70

    Gator 45/70 Monkey+++

    No one likes to lie. Ha, Had a cousin that would rather lie to you for a dime vs telling the truth for a dollar !
     
  17. Seacowboys

    Seacowboys Senior Member Founding Member

    We all lie; does this dress make me look fat? Did you enjoy the dinner I fixed? Will you still love me if I vote democrat
     
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  18. arleigh

    arleigh Goophy monkey

    Matthew 4; Satan tried to tempt Jesus with a twist use of scriptures, reasoning that if the angels are suppose to catch you if you trip then they should catch you if you throw you self off the cliff. Jesus returned with scriptures, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
    Attempting to force God's hand always backfires. Twisting scriptures to one's own satisfaction is self serving, not God serving.
    There are many instructions in scriptures directed to an individual or a group at that moment in time. All things said in scriptures are not for all people all the time.
    Jesus provide the Holy Spirit to teach His people Gods will on an individual basis, Noble and well meaning men ignored this provision, circumventing Gods design, becoming teachers themselves leaving God out of the loop. Jesus gospel is His provision of salvation and the Holy Spirit. On judgment day Jesus will divide those that obey Him versus those that only have merely clamed His name. Matthew 7;21,22,23,
    Secondly, If one is secure in Christ, this life is not what one is living for but eternity with our Lord Jesus.
    If you life is hid in Christ with God, then taking heat from the world is a very small thing.
    Love not the world nor the things in the world . All that is in the world is the lust of the flesh the lust of the eye and the pride of life.
    I will not throw my self off a cliff, and unless God instructs otherwise I won't run from a fight, but I won't go looking for a fight.
    There is a time to stand and a time to die standing. God knows what's best for te moment and for me. If He wished to preserve me so be it. If my time is finished so be it. God has preserved me through many events, os I trust Him either way. I won't lie.
    But I might answer a question with a question.
    Them;. Will you die for your faith in God?
    Me; Are you willing to die for your rebellion to God?
     
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  19. Bandit99

    Bandit99 Monkey+++ Site Supporter+

    I'm with @Wildbilly and @duane on this one. "Thou shalt not bear false witness" and lying can be two entirely different things. Am I going against God's commandment if I out-and-out lie to the wife what I got her for Christmas? Can bearing false witness also mean gossiping about your neighbors? Is the politician condemning their self when he/she is stumping and telling the masses what they want to hear?

    'Bearing false witness' is not black and white. Yes, it could be lying but, yes, it doesn't have to be. They way I interpret it is God wants us to do what is correct all the time and that includes not going around telling lies or even gossiping about people or anything else. It is simply wrong. Many great evils have come to the world from lies and those who tell lies will indeed have to answer for it. But, to think God cannot understand the difference between harmful, deceitful, hateful lies and a lie that might save your life from a Nazi or ANTIFA - well - I think that is being a bit short sighted and seems to be going by the 'letter of the law' instead of the 'intent of the law'. Believe me, God knows.
     
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  20. Wildbilly

    Wildbilly Monkey+++

    Instead of lying to save your life from that Nazi or ANTIFA POS, just shoot them....I doubt that either is a sin...and IF it is a sin, it's just as easy to ask forgiveness for one as the other!
     
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