Kudos and Props to Jan Brewer, Republican Governor of Arizona

Discussion in 'Politics' started by chelloveck, Feb 27, 2014.


  1. chelloveck

    chelloveck Diabolus Causidicus

     
  2. cjsloane

    cjsloane Monkey

    No!
    But oddly enough this is on topic!

    So I read some articles on the forced sale of the wedding cake in Colorado. The bakery would sell the gay couple any cake they wanted except for a wedding cake because he didn't believe in same sex marriage, it violated his beliefs.
    Here's the problem, the bakery was willing to bake a wedding cake for 2 dogs. Really. It's in the Probable Cause Determination.pdf on line. Here's an excerpt:

    Schmalz subsequently posted a review on the website Yelp describing her experiences with the Respondent. An individual identifying himself as "Jack P. of Masterpiece Cakeshop" posted a reply to Schmalz's review, in which he stated that " .. . a wedding for [gays and lesbians] is something that, so far, not even the State of Colorado will allow" and did not dispute that he refuses to serve gay and lesbian couples planning weddings or commitment celebrations. S. Schmalz states that after learning of the Respondent's policy, she later contacted the Respondent's place of business and spoke to Phillips. During this conversation, S. Schmalz claimed to be a dog breeder and stated that she planned to host a "dog wedding" between one of her dogs and a neighbor's dog. Phillips did not object to preparing a cake for S. Schmalz's "dog wedding."
     
    chelloveck likes this.
  3. kellory

    kellory An unemployed Jester, is nobody's fool. Banned

    See? I rest my case, when is the last time you saw a Spartan in the flesh?;) ( no pun intended)
     
  4. kellory

    kellory An unemployed Jester, is nobody's fool. Banned

    People can be a bit nuts about their pets, and it is good business to be accomadating, when possible, BUT, if the baker disliked dogs as well, he may have refused that business again for his own reasons.
     
  5. cjsloane

    cjsloane Monkey

    If the baker refused to bake the dogs a wedding cake his case would have been stronger.
     
  6. kellory

    kellory An unemployed Jester, is nobody's fool. Banned

    His case is as strong as it should be. He can refuse to serve anyone. If he could not do so, he might as well be a slave, for a slave has no choice in if or how he serves.
    I would suggest a book to you, one I made my wife read before I would marry her. Atlas Shrugged. It is an old book, but it makes a very good case as to what a man can be forced to do, and what is freedom.
     
  7. cjsloane

    cjsloane Monkey

    I've read it already. Ayn & I are from the same tribe.

    For some reason, people around here aren't fond of distinguishing what the law is v what it should be.
     
    chelloveck likes this.
  8. kellory

    kellory An unemployed Jester, is nobody's fool. Banned

    That might be because this not a law forum, but a prepper forum. Few people here are happy with the status quo, and feel that government is over-reaching beyond it's pervue, on nearly every front that effects liberty and personal freedoms.
    Your choices are, (A)work within the existing laws to effect change in the right direction, (B)defiance, and challenge the laws in court, or (C)active insurection. YMMV
     
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  9. chelloveck

    chelloveck Diabolus Causidicus

    Apparently the dogs' names are Buffy and Roscoe; presumably they are just good heterosexual friends, which wouldn't have triggered a hissy fit by the defendant in being asked to make a wedding cake for canines. If the dogs had have been named Adam and Steve...I dare say that all bets (and cakes) would have been off. :D
     
    cjsloane likes this.
  10. cjsloane

    cjsloane Monkey

    In order to work within the law or to challenge the law, you need to know the law.
     
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  11. kellory

    kellory An unemployed Jester, is nobody's fool. Banned

    That's why we have lawyers. They have the survivial instancts of a cockroach or a breadroom rat, but they breed like rabbits. You can find thousands of them with a phone call, (or possibly looking under a rotten log) I hear you can breed 'em like pittbulls. They are fed minusia with mother's milk, and are born with fangs that never let go. vicious little beasties.
     
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  12. cjsloane

    cjsloane Monkey

    You'll be please to know that I have resisted the urge to attend law school for the last 20 years. I did have a mini breakdown and get a paralegal certificate.

    Still though, you aren't being self reliant if you need to rely on a lawyer, right?
     
    chelloveck likes this.
  13. chelloveck

    chelloveck Diabolus Causidicus

    Knowing the law, can also allow one to intelligently skirt around the law on the thin ice of ambiguity, without falling through it.


    It's probably the reason that lawyers are rarely refused goods or services or bespoke cakes for the bespoken! ;)
     
    kellory likes this.
  14. HK_User

    HK_User A Productive Monkey is a Happy Monkey

    Being self reliant is all about taking care of business at hand and using the tools to survive that you have at your disposal, either with the conditions you slected or those placed upon you that you cannot avoid.
     
  15. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    Contrary to how Chelloveck sees me ( a cross between a Taliban Mullah and a Catholic Inquisitor) I am actually very libertarian, politically and socially. On societal issues I tend to lean heavily libertarian, for instance I have no problem with gay marriage, legalized marijuana. Politically I am very anti-interventionist, I was, and still am against the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the assassination of American citizens without warrant. I am against the Patriot laws and the unparallelled and unchecked expansion of government powers. I gag watching Faux news as much as I laugh out loud watching MSNBC. Though most here are what is considered traditionally conservative in their views, ie; pro second amendment etc. you'll find that it is very hard to attach a single label. Most are like myself in that we are staunchly conservative on some issues while being very open, liberal and Libertarian on others.The one thing we all have in common is a deep and abiding love of freedom.
     
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  16. kellory

    kellory An unemployed Jester, is nobody's fool. Banned

    That would be the same reason to hire a guide when hunting unfamiliar territory. Hire 'em for what they do best, use the talents they have honed, then pay them their fee, and go home. No reason to add them to your Christmas gift exchange, or stand up at their wedding, just put the tools back on the shelf until they are need again.
     
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  17. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    Exactly so. Knowing the law is one thing, knowing the procedures and hoops to jump thru to make it work is yet another. Lawyers are an indispensable need, however great a nuisance and expense.
     
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  18. cjsloane

    cjsloane Monkey

    Well, then, there's plenty of room for common ground.
    This topic is interesting to me, a clash between two freedoms - the freedom to deny service and the expectation of a free & open marketplace.
     
    chelloveck likes this.
  19. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    I don't see the conflict. Explain, please, how a "free and open" market remains free if the freedom to deny a service closes it. I'd be more inclined to say that the rules of supply and demand will determine how long a business will stay viable if the owner denies service. The "expectations" have to be managed, but NOT by dot gov forcing the issue.
     
  20. kellory

    kellory An unemployed Jester, is nobody's fool. Banned

    What is that legal truism?;)
    " a man who represents himself in court, has a fool for a client."
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2014
    chelloveck likes this.
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