"New Bank"

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by melbo, Dec 17, 2005.

  1. melbo

    melbo Hunter Gatherer Administrator Founding Member

  2. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    So what does that say, buy metal? Never mind the possibility (sky is falling theory) of some sort of disruptive plan by the central consortium that is out to protect itself, what does the little guy do?
  3. melbo

    melbo Hunter Gatherer Administrator Founding Member

    I'd say yes. Buy some metal. Small amounts will do to start.
    Silver is at $8.50 oz right now and Gold is at $502.90

    I've been buying both, mostly silver the past two months
    I don't want to be left holding 'promises to pay' if the banking balloon pops. ANd, It's so very liquid these days. I can buy in bulk from one of the bullion houses and turn around and put it on Ebay for a profit if I want.

    A lot of folks 'in the know' are heavily stocking up on PMs. Once the sheep get wind of these changes... it may be panic buying.

    Who knows. I learned about a lot of this from Bear. He's our SM Econ guru... Ex banker who like the idea of PM.
  4. Bear

    Bear Monkey+++ Founding Member Iron Monkey


    At least watch the monetary and commodity news.... or put it on your radar screen....
    Falling currencies and rising metals... especially gold and silver could be signs of problems ahead as big investors and money centers like Central Banks and Investment firms run from the volatility of paper to the safety "hard, tangible, real money".....

    Its part of an early warning system for those that watch it..... its pretty volatile right now... 20 plus year highs and violent swings... watch any of the market news channels.... there are financial "experts" in the asian, european and US markets that are watching this and buying it themselves....

    Like Melbo says.... its just the Central Banks... countries like China and Russia... Large investors.... and the industrial users groups that pushing and pulling at this right now... wait till the general public starts getting into this.... there won't be any manipulation able to control the prices.... Japan is buying and selling heavily and so is their population... China is doing the same and has just recently allowed private ownership of gold (see how lucky we are)... there is rumour that gold is going for $150-200 higher than spot market prices based just on the public demand for "real money".... Russia has stated that its central bank will buy more gold... date is centered around January 6th.... watch this date... it will be interesting....

    Even if all you can afford right now is a few 90% quarters or dimes... it may be a smart thing to do it... when you and the store owner are pointing your guns at each other in a standoff and talking about what's next... it may just get you that water and food you need so desparately without ever having to pull the trigger.....

    "Its the real thing"...... "Got some ?".......
  5. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    One thing to consider, I had read a thread a while back on another board from a guy in Argentina (IIRC) where the economy colapsed some time ago and 'hard' currency became a far more common means of trade but from what he was saying the folks that had like gold and silver bars and such were kind of screwed because whats the easiest to deal in on every corner is junk jewlery. The cheap $5 gold plated or painted stuff that turns you green is what is being readily traded in and while you can use the 99%+ pure coin grade and so on stuff there it gets you the same price as the painted stuff or plated stuff thats pennies on the dollar to get. If you think of it this makes sence due to the fact that how many folks actualy have the means to know what the purity is for tradeing purposes? Not many so the junk will set the value unless you are dealing with the rare collector types in which case what are they going to pay you in that will be useful? If it was me and I was going to try to buy up stuff like that for the purpose of tradeing with after the FRNs ($) became worthless I would go look into the spools of cheap gold chain and hasps like you see sold by the foot at some of the malls or just pick up cheap gold chains and rings and such by the dozens.
    If paper money is no longer of use then you have to be able to trade to the shop keeper and neighbor so you either need the going currency or better yet the things that always have value like food (includeing the ability to continue to produce more than you need) skills, clothes, and just the normal things folks need so you can barter with them. If you have gold and silver bullion what real use is it? You cant eat it or wear it so unless everyone agrees that its the new 'coin of the relm' then about all its good for is casting into bullets or fishing weights. Even if you can find the collectors or banks or whatever to buy it from you or redeem it or whatever if they are paying you for it in paper money that mo longer holds value what good is it?
    I know PMs are a popular idea for security from paper going to hell and I could well be proven wrong, just from what this other fellow had said it made sence to go with the junk if doing things that way and its what worked best there, for me I would rather spend the money now on more of the things I would need to not have to deal in the markets if the dollar collapses.
    Just my $0.02 worth.
  6. Bear

    Bear Monkey+++ Founding Member Iron Monkey

    Good points MM....
    I read a similar thread... and the guy said simple cheap 14k gold rings or wedding bands were great "money" in the markets....
    He also said long arms weren't as uselful as handguns, vests and a good holster... concealable and you had it on you all the time while you worked, walked etc....
    I agree... goods, clothes etc....
    In my opinion... you are right... all the gold and silver is useless in and during a collapse... where it may be very helpful is in the slope down and the rise back up....
    Doing well IMHO... means not just planning for the bottom when things are bad... put also for the slide down and climb back up.... I think that's where and when having a little bit of the items that will serve you well in those "phases" makes good balance sense.... use it when it is useful and don't when its not....
    Its all choice and planning.... people will make decisions based on what they see and want....
    This is a good discussion....
  7. melbo

    melbo Hunter Gatherer Administrator Founding Member


    I do think that the jewelry trades might be good for getting somewhere to need to be. My grandparents gave up quite a few rings, watches, and necklaces when getting out of Germany in '46

    I do also think that 14K gold rope may get you a trade in some circles, but not in all. If the whole thing goes to hell economically, I'm not going to look at that painted chain in trade for my food, water filter, seeds, etc. I'm not a jeweler or a rare coin guy. I will recognize Certain Gold and Silver trade units though. If you have a 1/10 th ounce Krugerand, or $1.50 in pre-65, I might talk to you.

    I'm not suggesting in any way that you buy silver in lieu of other preps. But, If the $$ does have problems, the people that I may want some favors, protection, or goods from will want recognizable stuff in trade. Or, look at it this way: During Katrina Hell, folks were walking around with TV sets and Microwaves. That was their store of wealth. And Wealth/value is only what someone else will give you for it.

    The people with the Real stuff you want will more than likely not want that plated gold anklet. Much better to have something that the top dogs know and want too. IMHO
  8. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Good points, and I suppose if it is a decline and then remergence thenespecialy in those times it could be useful. One of the big reasons for different views on this is probably looking at it from differing current economic situations. While I dont figure either of you are nesicarily rolling in money to the point of haveing money to throw away I look at things more from my own current situation where its a deffinate either or situation of that any preps beyond getting to the next check is significant purchase even if its $25-$50, so being able to stock anything more than the basics of food, water ,shelter and some materials for repairs/maintnance, and a moderate supply of ammo for a situation of more than a few months is a big streach so anything spent on barter items also has to be looked at in a frame of how useful it will be to me and mine if it dosnt take/retain the expected value.
    If one already has all their other bases covered to get themselves by in as comfortable a maner as possible and the simple need type barter goods of things like a few of the cheap pup tents, knives, material and so on then I could see where ADDING the PMs would be a decent idea, as long as one dosnt fall into an idea that they can get by with less of the things they need to prep on by assumeing that it will be available to purchase and putting all the eggs in one basket so to speak on what will be of value. Especialy in terms of assumeing that it will be available, kind of like even now with 7.62x39 ammo being a good example, its not even a clearly visible reason for it to be overly scarce (that I know of) like there would be if SHTF but out of about 11 places I looked on line for it tonight, 6 or so didnt have ANY at any price, a few had some of the Remington or Winchester stuff for major $ by the box of 20 and maybe 2 places had it by 200, 500, 1000 or similar cases for what would normaly be considered high prices. So if the balloon went up now then within a few days at best there would most likely not be any for sale at all unless maybe you were willing to buy a bit of someones surpluss for the exuivelent of $1 or more per round.
  9. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    All good points, especially the bit about PM being a good hedge during the ups and downs, but essentially useless at the bottom. Barter is based on trading goods and services, not swapping metal for either. At the bottom, metals will not be a good thing to have for a barter basis, since it won't be useful or necessary for life and comfort. Having it for the climb back out will be a Good Thing. Money in any form, greenbacks, 1000 oz 99 fine, or coinage, is nothing more than a medium of exchange that allows value to be moved without goods and services to trade instead. At the bottom, a can of peas may be worth a blanket in the summer, or in the winter the blanket may be worth a case of canned peas. The weaver will get pea rich and eat well in the winter.
  10. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    Best post on that forum thread.

    The thing is, this entire system is nothing more than a controlled mafia-like extortion racket that is operated exclusively by the wealthy banking cartels. The whole point, as it has always been, was to allow for the American dollar to slip completely into the abyss so that there would be no hope of ever reviving the old system. This paves the way for the only path that is left to take: the system dreamed of by FDR and Mussolini...

    a world ordered monetary system. Look at the names, follow the money trails. It's the same old people playing the same old games. The board has not changed, only a few pieces have been moved around.
  11. melbo

    melbo Hunter Gatherer Administrator Founding Member

    During the Depression, not Everyone did badly. Some actually prospered and I think in any of our SHTF scenarios, There will be people on top of things. They were better prepared and now have some stuff to trade. They realize that The Bad Times won't last forever and still know that Some things will have value once again.

    Maybe a seperate thread on PMs is in order
    Good points all around. I guess that my original point was that if the Banks come crumbling down, I'm more apt to want to have my wealth in tangible, valuable metal that is world recognized than in "Promise to Pay" notes that exist only as a blip on a computer screen until the plug is pulled. PM is not the silver bullet problem solver to SHTF. In this case where there is talk of Bank collapses, I think it's more prudent to have the Physical
  12. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    ghrit also said that coming out of the depression (or whatever befalls the banking system) metals will be very useful. The point was that when things are down, something that can be eaten (figuratively) will have more value. A talent, for example, for basket weaving, butchering, reloading, something that can be traded for food to a farmer that has corn and beans. Or, if a farmer, to trade beans for hunting ammo. To my mind, if you have a talent rather than a wealth (horAded or cached) (Spelling corrected, thanx, Bear) of some commodity, you'll come out better off. Merchants and traders have historically done better in the long haul, simply because they learned the relative values of commodities, and used it to their advantage. A very useful skill, that, and everyone benefits from the fair trader that deals honestly (as vs. a Scroogian Rothschild.)

    Can't argue against a separate thread --
  13. Bear

    Bear Monkey+++ Founding Member Iron Monkey

    You are absolutely correct... the best thing to acquire, store and or hoard is knowledge, skills and experience.... that's going to be the ultimate asset IMHO.... everything else talked about here are tools.... skill and knowledge is the key.... when you think about it... that is ultimately what you are trading or bartering....

    I think a separate area could be valuable.... although I'd be curious if there is really an interest in learning about this particular part of financial sense for planning and preparations.... Even if its just a few people that participate... I think it would beneficial....
  14. E.L.

    E.L. Moderator of Lead Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    I would love to learn more. I don't expect the economy to collapse, and I don't expect our paper currency to become worthless. Having said that, I think that having a tangible investment that you can lay your hands on is a good idea. Most financial investment experts will tell you to include PM/Coins in your portfolio. In the event of a stock market dive at least then you can use your investment. In the event of a market collapse, or even just a big dip, I can hold on to my PM and save it for the eventual rise. If half of the companies in the Barkley's Index (which tracks the S&P 500 & and is where I have a lot of stock tied up in) went belly up in a catastrohic collapse my $ there wouldn't be worth squat. PM in my safe though, that would be, for bartering purposes, and the eventual rise. Gold and silver have been used for currency way before paper currency was, and will always be a viable asset. I think we should include "Financial Survival" in it's own thread. I would really love to learn more.


    Current value of Gold:

    With international conflicts, deficit spending, a declining dollar, corporate governance problems, and inflation on the rise, investors are rediscovering an old standby--gold. In 2003, the price of gold has reached its highest level in more than six years. This time, the increase could be more lasting as forces continue to push the dollar lower.

    What is the Right Investment Formula?

    Financial experts generally suggest that rare coins and bullion are appropriate for 5% to 20% of a portfolio, which should also contain equity and fixed income assets.

    Experts also recommend that rare coins and bullion should be considered a long-term investment. They suggest that rare coins should be held for at least 3 to 5 years and preferably, 5 to 10 years to maximize potential for gains.

    Current value of Gold:

    With international conflicts, deficit spending, a declining dollar, corporate governance problems, and inflation on the rise, investors are rediscovering an old standby--gold. In 2003, the price of gold has reached its highest level in more than six years. This time, the increase could be more lasting as forces continue to push the dollar lower.

    What is the Right Investment Formula?

    Financial experts generally suggest that rare coins and bullion are appropriate for 5% to 20% of a portfolio, which should also contain equity and fixed income assets.

    Experts also recommend that rare coins and bullion should be considered a long-term investment. They suggest that rare coins should be held for at least 3 to 5 years and preferably, 5 to 10 years to maximize potential for gains.
  15. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Yeah I think as an investment type thing it would be excelent.
  16. E.L.

    E.L. Moderator of Lead Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Why Gold?

    Gold is not only a safe long-term investment; some forms of it have outperformed the Dow over the past 30 years. Why? Because gold presents an unparalleled combination of advantages; the savvy investor’s dream!

    Gold preserves its value - It is indestructible, relatively scarce, and cannot be manufactured.

    Gold has low volatility - There is only a fixed supply of gold on the market at any one time. This inelasticity of the supply creates an exponential increase in value with increased demand. This also reduces the risk of devaluation as lower prices quickly attract new demand, which will once again fuel value increase.

    Gold protects privacy - Rare U.S gold coins are among a few investments that can be kept entirely private. You neither have to report or register your gold acquisitions with any governmental agencies at all.

    Gold has growing demand - The already colossal coin market is constantly growing as more investors realize the importance of diversifying their portfolios with precious metals. This of course decreases the number of available coins while prices continue to climb.

    Gold has predictable liquidity - Gold coins, and more specifically rare coins, are the most liquid tangible asset in existence. Numerous dealers worldwide can provide value quotes for virtually any coin and gold can be readily bought and sold 24hrs/day in global markets. Gold is also an internationally recognized and trusted form of exchange.

    Gold presents considerable tax advantages - Unlike most other investments, gold is only taxed on liquidation profits. There is also no federal income tax liability on wash sales. This means that a loss on the sale of one type of gold coin can be claimed even though a different type of gold coin is purchased at the same time. This enables you to trade your U.S coins of equal or greater value without tax consequences. Consult with you professional tax advisor or ask one of our experts for more details.

    Gold as a heirloom - More than a valuable investment, rare coins are part of this nation’s historical heritage. In fact, many gold investors and collectors who take great pride in their coin portfolios often preserve them within their families for several generations. Note that this also contributes to a decline in the market supply of gold, once again increasing its value!

    Rare gold coins cannot be confiscated - An invaluable privilege: due to their historical status, rare U.S. coins are not exposed to gold confiscation laws. Why is this important? During the recession of the 1930s, more than 90% of all U.S. gold coins were confiscated by the government and melted into gold bricks, with the exception of rare coins. In addition to preserving their investment, this further benefited rare coin collectors as it drastically increased the rarity and therefore the value of their collections.

    Gold is apolitical - Another great advantage of gold is that it is not directly affected by the policy actions of any individual country.

    Gold is safe from repossession - Because of their historical value rare gold coins cannot be repudiated or frozen as in the case of other assets.

    Gold is easily transported - $1 million in gold coins can easily and inconspicuously be carried in an attaché case or placed in a safety deposit box.

    All of the above reasons make it no surprise that governments, central banks and other official institutions hold one quarter of all the gold in existence as part of their international monetary reserves.
  17. melbo

    melbo Hunter Gatherer Administrator Founding Member

    Yeah, we need a seperate forum for this talk...

    Mabye a complete Business and Financial forum where we can track markets etc... [peep]
  18. Bear

    Bear Monkey+++ Founding Member Iron Monkey

    I agree... a separate section may be helpful....
    We can dissect, debate, discuss and discard financial info...
    there's a "wealth" of information out there that is helpful and insightful related to world currencies, politics, economies and potential "horizons"....
    This is good discussion.... I like it.... :D
  19. TnAndy

    TnAndy Senior Member Founding Member

    First post.....and looks like ya'll have a nice site BTW......but I had to comment on this

    "Experts also recommend that rare coins and bullion should be considered a long-term investment. They suggest that rare coins should be held for at least 3 to 5 years and preferably, 5 to 10 years to maximize potential for gains."

    When ( and I say when, not if..... :) ) you get into gold and silver, run like the dickens from any 'expert' that pushes "Rare" coins as an investment. Like baseball cards, or Hummel figurines, any collectible depends on the greater fool theory.....you must find a greater fool than you to make the amount you tied up in a 'rare' hunk of gold pay more than you did. In recent years, fools have been plentiful.......in a bad to awful situation, they may be quite rare.......so take that into consideration before thinking a Mickey Mantel rookie card is going to provide your retirement.....ahahahaaaaaa

    Bullion coins are the way to go, IMHO. More bang for the buck....or what currently passes for a 'buck'.
  20. martin97

    martin97 Fuel busted Trucker. Founding Member

    I would like to know how the goods are going to get to the store? I think we have all seen what happens to stores in times of crisis, they get gutted, if U.S. currency goes in the tank, how and why would a trucker pay for his fuel in silver or gold just to get food to you? the cargo would be worth more than your money! not to mention the extreme danger of moving that cargo, you see how folks acted in La, imagine that nationwide, people will do extreme things when they, and possible their family, are hungry and cold.
    If you want to buy metals as a hedge against the falling dollar that makes sense to me, but for any outher reason bullets and long term food, water and fuel for heat storage will prove a much better investment. how friendly will that long time neighbor be we he's hungry and he see's you and your's eating? its ugly, but that is reality.
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