Rather than take this to a gun forum where there is an abundance of Internet Wisdom I'm taking this to a group I trust to give honest first hand experience. I'm considering a carry pistol in either 40 S&W or 10mm. Obviously, both outclass the 9mm I currently carry, but what I like from the 9mm are very fast and controllable followup shots. On paper the 10mm has about 25% more power and 25% more recoil than the 40 S&W, but I'd like some practical insight from those who have experience with both. My needs/usage I'm looking for a compact lightweight semi auto pistol I can easily conceal that isn't so heavy it pulls my pants down. I currently carry an S&W Shield that meets these criteria and which I am very satisfied with. I've thought about getting a Shield in 40 S&W, but am also relocating to bear country so a 10 might have additional benefit. I've fortunately never been in a gunfight, but based on my reactions to very stressful and urgent situations I've encountered I expect to be considerably calmer than most, to seek a protected location while getting ready to or returning fire in a controlled fashion. I just kind of go on autopilot during emergencies almost like I'm watching someone else. I'm the sort that panics after the situation is over, and by that time it's unnecessary. What I'm Asking Based on your experience is the extra power of the 10mm worth the extra recoil and expense over 40S&W in real life usage? I'd also like to know that the 10mm users have done to train for accurate and quick followup shots and if you have resorted to a heavier frame pistol to mitigate recoil. Lastly, while 40 S&W is available in a fair variety of pistols the 10mm is mostly available in full size frames. If you carry a 10, what pistol do you carry and how easy is it to conceal?
If I was to purchase a new pistol, I would look at a 40 cal.so you can pick up kits to swap it to 9mm and .357 sig.... This allow you to arm to the occasion... 9mm for everyday carry, .40 if you feel you need to gun up. Normally I think a 9mm would meet most needs.... YMMV
A buddy of mine got the Glock with interchangeable barrels likes it fairly well. He said after shooting the 9 and 40 , you can really feel the difference with the 357. He likes it , but I have no real knowledge of it. For what it’s worth.
Well 3M-TA3, you came to the right place! I have been a convert of the Big 10 for a lot of years now ( 1988) and have run a few and the experience is quite good. IN your shoes, I would go Glock 29 for daily carry and use 180 gr full pop 10 MM ammo. I do own a Glock 20 and it's been very reliable, but it's a full size. Stay the hell away from any thing SIG or Springfield! Best choice would be a Commander size 1911, but your getting heavy in the 1911s. I run a Kimber Eclipse ( the one I showed you last fall, bottom of post) and have been quite impressed with it, and I also run a Caspian double stack, but the weight for you would be unacceptable @46 and 54 oz respectively, but they are absolutely dead nuts reliable, scary accurate, and simply amazing to carry. For a fighting hand gun, there is no better caliber then 10 MM. It's like .357 for grownups in a semi auto platform! Warning, the Glock 29 is a compact and thus will be snappy with full zoot 10 MM ammo, but you can change recoil springs and shoot .40 Short&Weak all day long, just put a .308 chamber brush in and spin it a few times to break out the carbon build up in the chamber. It's only about 1mm worth! A word of caution, outside of the 1911s, NOBODY offers a fully supported barrel, and that is a limiting factor in your ability to run super power 10 MM ammo!!! Best ammo for carry is 180 gr Hornady Crit. Defence, and SIG HD duty rounds. GRIZZLY ammo makes a pretty stout 200 gr HP loading that should give you the option for a heavier round with out upping the pressures to full nuke! Also PPU makes some super nice shooting 180 gr ammo for the Big10 that is inexpensive and stunningly accurate! You will find 10 MM shoots more accurate, and the recoil while sharp, is actually more controllable, and easier to keep on target. It feels like a heavy load .45, but actually has less muzzle rise! Let me know if you want to try out a couple of 10 MM pistols, I don't Have a compact, but the three full size will give you an idea of how the recoil is going to be! I have shot the Glock 29, and found it about the same as a compact .45 recoil wise, but a hell of a lot louder, and depending on powder, a super size fireball!
Ammo has come along ways, and more companies are offering more options every day making the Big 10 a viable carry loading. In my mind, it's the very best semi auto chambering you can have, and the advantages of being able to swap recoil springs and shoot the super cheap practice. 40 rounds is a no brainer! Remington makes the best bullet currently available, a 180 gr hollow point, called the Golden Saber, but it's only available in .40 S&W. But for hand loading, you can buy the bullets and load them your self to full 10 MM power levels. I'm running them over 13.5 gr BlueDot and getting 1360 fps and 726 foot pounds out of them, and shooting through the pockets of a Carhart jacket in front of ballstics jell, I'm getting a consistent 18 to 24 inches penetration with no plugging of the nose cavity, and almost one inch expansion! That's unbeatable performance, and the Bullets seem to preform better at the top end of the speed spectrum! For heavier bullets over 200 gr, Buffalo Bore and Lazercast are your best choices, a solid Lead design, and the Lasercast is a semi flat point which can be DumDummed with A 6mm drill bit down 8 MM depth and they are stunning for penetration and expansion. Same jacket and jell test puts them out of the blocks at 28 inches and expansion of 1.1 inches! Velocity over 13.1 gr BlueDot is 1245!!! Try any of that with. 9mm, .40 or even the most impressve .45 and all are left in the dust and wanting! He'll, even .357 mag won't even touch that! Seriously, with 10 MM, your well into the .41 mag realm of power, and much cheaper to boot, and a semi auto with decent round count. A standard frame 1911 holds 10 rounds, and the double stacks hold up to 17 rounds! Formidable power in a semi auto!
If you are going into bear country, 10mm can't be beat. My nephew and his wife both carry Glock 10 mm pistols. To my hands, the 10 did not seem to have much more recoil than my 1911 .45 acp.
HEY! you guys are being UNFAIR here! (hmm new catch phrase thingy here maybe? gun justice? equal gun justice? hmmm) as I do NOT have a 10mm to test n whatnot... well in FAIRNESS (wondering if this will work) one of you should send me yours!!!! so I can do an extensive test (years would be required... HONEST!) and then give an opinion!!! (really... HONEST! )
The ability of 10mm to shoot 40 S&W IMO makes it the winner, just like my old 44 mag could shoot 44 special as well as reduced rounds. I'll be giving the Glock a look see soon. I did see that the Colt Commander doesn't come in 10mm - any Commander sized 1911's I should look at? Seems only a 5 oz difference between the small Glock and a Commander.
@Ura-Ki ,,,,just a question here. I'm more of a shooter here than an armoror . But you said to stay away from Springfield. I just recently picked up a lightly used Springfield XD 40 , factory case, 2 clips, clip loader , 2 mag belt clip, pistol belt clip , with a laser mounted in the end of the recoil spring , picked it up for 3 bills. Just wondering if I need to get rid of it and pick up something else. The guy was just needing the money pretty bad , I told him he could buy it back if things got better with him , but I don't see that happening anytime soon. Just curious. Thanks.
Ohh, ohh! Yours really is a very well written, well thought-out post; and, I don’t want to be a contrarian on this one; but, in all fairness, you did ask for honest replies. Consequently, this is the only reply I can, honestly, make: Personally, I would not agree with the statement: "I'm considering a carry pistol in either 40 S&W or 10mm. Obviously, both outclass the 9mm I currently carry …… ." I’m, also, going to point out to you that your thinking on this subject is, somewhat, oxymoronic. (No, I don’t mean to imply that you’re a moron – OK!) A little further on in the text you, also, say: “I’ve fortunately never been in a gunfight, but based on my reactions to very stressful and urgent situations I've encountered I expect to be considerably calmer than most …… .” This latter statement, alone, actually contradicts many of the other sentiments described in this thread. For a fact, too many people try to compensate for whatever perceptions of inferiority they’re carrying by seeking to protect themselves with larger and larger caliber handguns. The, perhaps subliminal, self-defense attitude is that of: “My gun will save me!” when, if fact, it won’t. In my own experience, when push comes to shove, your mental attitude and emotional control are MORE IMPORTANT for saving your life than whatever big handgun you might be carrying. While I don’t always agree with Jeff Cooper, I do agree with him when he states, “40 caliber pistols are a solution to a handgun self-defense problem that doesn’t really exist!” (Paraphrased but, yeah, Cooper did say that!) I used to use my usual 45 ACP EDC pistol at IDPA practice sessions. I think it safe to say that I was one of the most accurate shooters in the room (Because I was); however, no matter how hard I tried, my ears told me that I was firing perceptibly slower than all of the 9mm pistoleros in the room. My draw speeds were phenomenal; I was actually faster than the well-known CZ, USA factory shooter in the room; but, still, I remained unable to reduce my front sight dwell times to the point where I could, at least, match any of the better 9mm pistoleros. No matter how I tried the guys with the 9 x 19mm pistols were always faster shooters than I was with my 45 ACP. In addition to holding onto the proper mental state-of-mind, and emotional self-control, the one sure thing that wins gunfights is (Ready?) nice ’n tight, accurate, shot placement. The tighter the group the more likely you’re going to be to put the target down; and, personal preferences aside, with proper shot placement, a 9mm pistol WILL put targets down. (Nobody needs a 20 lb sledgehammer in order to drive 16 penny nails; AND, a large sledgehammer is a lot harder to manipulate and control than a 22 oz framing hammer, understand?) I’m able to work very effectively with either a 9mm, or a 45 ACP pistol; but under no circumstances am I willing to hinder myself by having to deal with the very sharp recoil, and excess front sight dwell time of either a 40 S&W, or (even worse) 10mm handgun. (I’m an older man; and when it comes to putting a target down, why should I want to work any harder than I really need to?) Make no mistake, I’ve fired plenty of 40 caliber, and 10mm handguns; and I do know how to handle them well. Ya got ‘a have strong arms and your wrists need to be in good shape; but for a shooter who is in good shape (and well practiced) the accuracy is there while the speed and ease-of-firing are not. I have a personal opinion, one that I’ve been holding onto for many years, now: I honestly believe that much of the really lousy pistol shooting that police officers do is because modern American law enforcement has done a really excellent job of superlatively outgunning average police officers. (I harken back to Cooper’s original statement about 40 caliber pistols!) Are 10mm pistols really good for the woods? The truthful answer is, “No”. On the one hand I’ve dispatched wounded deer with a single 22 LR (RN) bullet; and, on the other hand, I’m not inexperienced enough to attempt to use a 10mm pistol on a large bear. A 10mm might be all right to use on a smallish, unaroused bear; but, as far as I’m concerned that’s the practical limit of what a 10mm handgun can be used for in the woods. (Years ago when I used to travel through ‘bear country’ I carried an S&W Model 29 with an 8 3/8 inch barrel in a Bianchi shoulder holster; and I kept it loaded with very high quality Norma, 240 grain, 'soft point' cartridges — Now, THAT was a bear handgun!) So, as far as this old gunman is concerned, what all this comes down to is that you are contemplating the sacrifice of more manageable recoil control, and reduced front sight dwell time for – what is especially for you – an unnecessary larger caliber; and I would offer that 10mm isn’t really going to take you ‘where you want to go’. Steady nerves, accurate rapid fire, (Never fire only once – Right!) and nice tight groups are what make most centerfire handguns functional for many, but not all, self-defense uses. If you’re good enough with a pistol to place the first three rounds squarely into the top of the thoracic cavity, along with, maybe, a fourth round into the face then you don’t need to be spending money on getting yourself a larger caliber handgun. Instead of helping you to defend yourself, a 10mm will be too small for many bears, and too slow and unmanageable to improve your scorable hits. For a fact I don’t know, nor have I ever met a (skillful) IDPA pistolero who used a 10mm pistol – None! What is more, all of the really competent 40 caliber gunmen I’ve known were all men with strong wrists and arms. (Sorry to tell you what I strongly suspect you didn’t want to hear!) NOTE: Just saw your most recent post on Glock pistols with conversion barrels. If you have the chance look at fired brass cases from each barrel. You should notice that the striker indents on the primers, and the extractor marks on the rims are different. These off-center (or shallower) differences are among the principal reasons 'Why' Glock, GmbH/Inc. does NOT recommend using any of their conversion barrels for either service pistol, or EDC use.
The XD series are awesome pistols, but a little weak for a "conversion" to 10 MM as several folks are wanting to try, and some have Done! The Springfields I would seriously avoid are the 1911s that they have periodically built in 10 MM, and any thing with and external extractor (Sig) They tend to break the extractor and have even cracked the slide in the exractor area. Your XD should serve you well, congrats.
Lots of very good points there, and I'm fully in agreement that shot placement especially for followup shots is the most critical aspect of a carry gun. Like all my weapons I'm not going to depend on one to protect my life unless it has proven it's reliability and I have mastery of the tool. If I can't control a 10 or 40 sufficiently I'll likely sell it and stick with the 9mm. The reason to look for a more powerful round is that it does more damage, but if it doesn't go where I want it to then that power is useless. Bear country - I'll likely get another 44 mag wheel gun when I get there. It's also snake country so shooting 44 mag shot shells is a nice option. I used to keep the first two rounds as shot followed by some stout hand loads. That's also part of why I bought a 12 gauge a few weeks ago. I don't think we are very far off being on the same page. Also, I don't take criticism personally and instead take the opportunity to learn and feel that if my opinion can't withstand criticism then it wasn't a very good opinion to begin with.
Kimber was doing a Commander 1911 in 10 MM, not seeing then currently listed! COLT also does one, but it's rare. FUSION does currently offer one, but it' big$$$$. PARA can be safely converted, and most of the good name brands offerd in 9 MM can be converted over pretty easy! When Tim gets back to smithing in your A.O. give him a call and ask him if he would convert one over for you, might be surprised at the cost savings! I completey disagree with the power of the 10 MM has against bears! It's pretty darn good actually. My Cousin put down a large Grizz with his Glock, with no issues. Post mortem found the bullet punched the front shoulder and blew out the heart and left lung, bullet was recovered on the far side of the lung, and measured about a 1/2 inch diameter! That's almost .44 mag performance! Certainly .45 Colt! As to suitability, for carry use, gunman is forgegetting a crucial factor, adrenalin! When threatened, your going to shoot Y out gun empty, with out recoil, noise, or any other gun relayed factors present, and it comes down to skill, luck, muscle memory from training, and your going to see the same here as with any other pistol, just much better performing bullets!
Ok, thanks , didn't know if there was a weak point somewhere I wasn't aware of. Not looking to do a conversion. Thanks again.
@3M-TA3 @Ura-Ki is spot on with everything he's said. I can't add a thing other than I hate to recommend a Glock to a friend but understand the choice as far as weight issues are concerned. I run a Colt Delta and am currently duplicating Ura-Ki's Caspian set up as soon as I can get back to it. For me I don't mind the heavier 1911 platform and personally think the 10mm double stack is about as good as it gets. Take to heart the recommendation of the Golden Sabre bullets. To put it into good 'ol boy terms, They knock the shit outta everything! I don't remember if you reload, but if you do let me know when you are ready and I can send you some 10mm Kurz brass
I'm becoming a convert myself. Step Son uses one as a duty piece and DiL has one as her daily carry. Supposed to be going to S&W's armourer's school later this spring to focus on the M&P series.
Thanks for the input - I do indeed reload. Between my wife and I we have four M&P's - two shields in 9, a full size 9, and a full size .22LR. Love them all, especially the Shields.
There is a good reason were starting to see the S&W MP gaining popularity in the matches, it' almost a 1911 in aftermarket support and accessories! Funny ol world ain' it. Lol DAD finally got a Shield, and loves it! Only shot it once, a full box of practice ammo and a half box of each type of ammo he wanted to try, and has settled on the 124 gr Hornady Critical Defence stuff! Winchesters PDX stuff is a close second, and more important, both shoot to the same point of aim/impact!
