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Schools and guns

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Hosster, Mar 20, 2013.

  1. Hosster

    Hosster Monkey

    Long story here. I promise to get to my point. I have a 13 year old son that enjoys hunting with me. I also have week to week joint custody with his mother.
    About a week ago he told me he was at his mother's and thought he saw a rabbit in some high grass and shot at it with his pellet gun. Turns out it was a cat. That's really all he said. He sounded kind of upset, but I honestly made nothing of it either way. I know as a kid I shot a lot of squirrels, rabbits, and birds with pellet guns and if he did hit a cat I know it was an honest mistake. Also my son is sort of unique. Honestly he is about as mature as an 11yr old and as big as an adult.
    He just turned 13 last month. He is 6'2" tall. All this has led to him being socially awkward. I have asked him not to talk about guns or politics in school because honestly it's such a touchy subject. All had been fine till this past week.
    His guidance Counselor calls me to tell me he was caught talking to a kid in class about both shooting a cat and removing the guts from a wild hog.

    I informed the Counselor the cat incident happened at mom's house and the cleaning of the hog was something that comes with hunting.

    Here is my concern. . . . Ultra liberal public schools might send child services to my house. My son has two bolt action guns I allow him to keep in his room with the bolts removed and locked in my room.
    I bet the uneducated system would not realize that equates to a gun that simply cannot fire without the bolt.

    Should I ...
    A. Keep the guns locked in my room now
    B. Keep things as is
    C. Say to heck with the system if they come knocking on my door tell them to go to hell without a warrant.

    Also how would you approach your son with this?
  2. ghrit

    ghrit Ambulatory anachronism Administrator Founding Member

    I go with "C", no warrant, no entry. Likewise, if the DYS can't come up with a warrant and ID themselves, no entry. At this stage, the bolts are locked up separate from the rifles, I can't see a problem with that.

    Your son is another matter, I'm ill equipped to advise beyond straight up honesty, with as much talking as necessary to get the ideas across, with regular re-inforcement and repetition until it's automatic and he echos you when you start the litany. Not the least of which has to do with identifying his target a bit better. Might be just the right time to introduce the concept of operational security, and "who do you trust."
    Yard Dart likes this.
  3. Tracy

    Tracy Insatiably Curious Moderator Founding Member

    Protect your child with all that you have and all that you know! Make sure you and his mom are on the same page.

    The school will do whatever they deem necessary to "protect" him (it's all a matter of perspective) from what they consider harmful. I have seen them walk a kid out the back door while talking to Mom at the front door, all in the name of child safety. Since he lives in a divided-home; they may also try to divide your parental unification - beware of this and make sure you and his Mom are united in what's best for your son. Period.

    Talk to him about what is [deemed] appropriate conversation in different locations. You don't always talk about any/everything in any/every given location. ie; there are things you say around "the boys" and things you can say in mixed company, etc.

    Good luck.
    Beano likes this.
  4. Beano

    Beano Monkey

    Option C. The system (be it any system) does indeed have educational shortfalls regarding that which the system does not collectively agree with or understand. That, is not your problem. As long as your legal bases are covered, they can pound sand.
  5. JABECmfg

    JABECmfg multi-useless Site Supporter

    Hosster likes this.
  6. Hosster

    Hosster Monkey

    Absolutely scary and yet comforting to know they will back down if I stand my ground. I will have to inform my wife this as well.
    I am honestly thinking of creating a cache for my guns for a while. I can see my wife caving to their demands despite what I tell her. In my state I don't have to register them so none are.
    Might be easier just to say they got lost in a freak boat accident. . Lol
    JABECmfg likes this.
  7. NotSoSneaky

    NotSoSneaky former supporter

    Before you do anything;
    Check the firearms laws in your state /county / town to see if it lawfull for him to even have the rifles in his possession.
    "Pretty sure it's OK" and "I think so" are not gonna cut it, research the laws, print out the revelant section and then you'll be ready.

    With the law on your side there isn't a damm thing they can do.
    Best wishes.
    kellory and JABECmfg like this.
  8. Yard Dart

    Yard Dart Vigilant Monkey..... Moderator Site Supporter++

    I think there is nothing wrong with anything you have done so far. Pulling the bolts is smart gun safety in your home for a kid his age, if you feel that is appropriate for his maturity level. I know you will double check all applicable laws to ensure that you are in the clear, before they come knocking, as others have already suggested.
    If they come- Option C= get a warrant!!

    It is definitely father-son time to ensure proper gun safety!! He made an honest mistake, but you have to drill into him the proper identification of the target, what is beyond the target, and all things relating to handing a rifle/pistol with care (not to suggest that you have not already done this, but he evidently could use a little more).

    Many a grown man/woman hunting a questionable deer in the bushes, have shot a cow on the ranchers back forty, therefore we never stop reinforcing proper shooting- adult to child or adult to adult. It never fails at the range to see someone do something unsafe- and it is up to everyone of us to go right up and remind them of what is safe.
    tulianr likes this.
  9. Catullus

    Catullus Monkey+ Site Supporter++

    If you are financially able, I would call and get a lawyer first thing in the morning and pay him to pre-emptively call the school counselor and nip the whole situation in the bud before a "pitchfork" scenario ensues. In this climate, I don't think that it is an overreaction.

    Option C then repeat with Option C.

    Good Luck.
  10. Gafarmboy

    Gafarmboy Monkey+++

    As a Public School Teacher, Special Education, I agree with Catullus on this. I have witness more than one account of the "Doing it for the Child's Sake" B.S. (through my workings with Defacs (Children Protective Services)) and the unintended consequences that follow. Better to err on the side of caution than false bravado. Went to bat for a few people that I knew REALLY, REALLY WELL and even then it was messy to say the least. All it takes is for some disgruntled ass to make your life hell for a few weeks.

    If you can not protect what you own, you won't own it long.
  11. Witch Doctor 01

    Witch Doctor 01 Mojo Maker

    Hmmm I would do a combination of all three.... No need throwing gas on a fire.... move the guns, or have a trigger lock with the keys locked up and the bolt removed... (would meet the word of the law on keeping all fire arms locked, whether they can shoot or not.) Get your son in an Eddie Eagle NRA program... (shows concern about proper gun handling, ) ... check into hiring a "Gun" friendly attorney in case he's needed, and if needed remember to "address" (read sue) all pertninent people and organizations... school, school board, teacher/counselor who filed the complaint, etc. with out a properly executed warrant no one steps one foot in my door.... might consider moving the pellet gun from his mothers if you think there is a "lack of supervision" when he has a "Gun" (might go a long way toward a possible jury aquittal...

    Just saying... YMMV
    Yard Dart, kellory and Catullus like this.
  12. BTPost

    BTPost Old Fart Snow Monkey Moderator

    Nope, The SCOTUS Ruling in Heller states, that it is Unconstitutional to have a Statute that REQUIRES that a Firearm be Locked Up, or otherwise disabled, and or Stored in an Unusable Condition. SCOTUS Ruled in McDonald, that Heller applies to ALL US Territory, PERIOD. They can Bitch, and Moan, about it all they want, but THAT is the LAW of the Land. Yes, They could require you, as a Parent, to "Supervise your son, whenever he is in possession of a Loaded Firearm, as he is NOT an Adult, so check your State's Statutes on Minors in Possession of a Firearm. Other than that, they can "Pound Sand" and you can sue ANY. and ALL, Government Officials, that come to your, or your Wife's, Residence, demanding Entry, for violating Your 2nd Amendment Civil Rights, especially if the do so without a Warrant. If they do, con some local Judge, into giving them a Warrant, then when you get THEM in front of that Judge, you need to demand that they PROVE, they did NOT violate your Civil Rights, by their submissions to that Judge, for the Warrant. If they embellished in the slightest, the Judge is going to dismiss, the Warrant, and be extremely ANGRY, with those who sought the Warrant, in the first place, and likely he will NEVER accept another Warrant Submission from those folks again. Also likely the Case Worker is going to have a much harder time getting cooperation from the local LEOs after such an incident, as they aren't going to jumping to get any Warrant issued on the word of that Case Worker, ever again. ......
    Moatengator and Hosster like this.
  13. Witch Doctor 01

    Witch Doctor 01 Mojo Maker

    That is true but....

    18 U.S.C. § 922(z) was added to

    the Gun Control Act as part of the

    “Protection of Lawful Commerce in

    Arms Act” enacted on October 26,

    2005. It is effective April 24, 2006.



    (1) IN GENERAL- Except as

    Provided under paragraph (2), it shall

    be unlawful for any licensed

    importer, licensed manufacturer, or

    licensed dealer to sell, deliver, or

    transfer any handgun to any person

    other than any person licensed under

    this chapter, unless the transferee is

    provided with a secure gun storage

    or safety device (as defined in sec

    tion 921(a)(34)) for than handgun.

    (2) EXCEPTIONS – Paragraph

    shall not apply to--

    (A)(i) the manufacture for, transfer

    to, or possession by, the United

    States, a department or agency of the

    United States, a State, or a depart

    ment, agency, or political subdivision

    of a State, of a handgun; or

    (ii) the transfer to, or possession

    by, a law enforcement officer em

    ployed by an entity referred to in

    clause (i) of a handgun for law en

    forcement purposes (whether on or

    off duty); or

    (B) the transfer to, or possession by

    a rail police officer employed by a rail

    carrier and certified or commissioned

    as a police officer under the laws of a

    State of a handgun for purposes of law

    enforcement (whether on or off duty);

    (C) the transfer to any person of a

    handgun listed as a curio or relic by

    the Secretary pursuant to section

    921(a)(13); or

    (D) the transfer to any person of a

    handgun for which a secure gun stor

    age or safety device is temporarily

    unavailable for the reasons described

    in the exceptions stated in section

    923(e), if the licensed manufacturer,

    licensed importer, or licensed dealer

    delivers to the transferee within 10

    calendar days from the date of the

    delivery of the handgun to the trans

    feree a secure gun storage or safety

    device for the handgun.


    (A) IN GENERALNothwithstanding

    any other provision of law, a person


    who has lawful possession and control of

    a handgun, and who uses a secure gun

    storage or safety device with the handgun,

    shall be entitled to immunity from a

    qualified civil liability action.

    (B) PROSPECTIVE ACTIONS- A qualified

    civil liability action may not be brought

    in any Federal or State court.

    (C) DEFINED TERM As used in this

    paragraph, the term qualified civil liability


    (i) means a civil action brought by

    any person against a person

    described in subparagraph (A) for

    damages resulting from the criminal

    or unlawful misuse of the handgun

    by a third party, if—

    (I) the handgun was accessed by

    another person who did not have the

    permission or authorization of the

    person having lawful possession and

    control of the handgun to have access

    to it; and

    (II) at the time access was gained

    by the person not so authorized,

    the handgun had been made

    in operable by use of a secure gun

    storage or safety device; and

    (ii) shall not include an action brought

    against the person having lawful

    possession and control of the handgun

    for negligent entrustment or negligence

    per se.

    This means that any attempt by the school to bring him to child protective services has an extremely large road block to by pass on the way to court.

    I am not an attorney and don't claim to give any legal advice.... but i did stay over night in a holiday expresss once....;)
    kellory likes this.
  14. BTPost

    BTPost Old Fart Snow Monkey Moderator

    Yep, We, as FFLs must sell ALL Handguns, with Trigger Locks, or a Secure Storage Device, unless the Purchaser brings one, with him, when he picks up the Weapon. This does NOT say, or mean that he has to USE IT. It just means he MUST have one, with him, upon the Original Transfer from the FFL, into Private Ownership. It was a dumb Statute, when it was passed, and it is a dumb Statute today.
    JABECmfg likes this.
  15. Witch Doctor 01

    Witch Doctor 01 Mojo Maker

    everything you say is true BT... but why throw gas on the fire... when his trouble is over he can go back any way he wants... i was just making a suggestion on how to minimize his risks...
  16. BTPost

    BTPost Old Fart Snow Monkey Moderator

    True, it is better not to have to deal with the NEA Thugs, and Child Protective Services, at all, HOWEVER, when they stick their Noses into YOUR, or MY Business, they need to get SLAPPED Down, and Slapped Down HARD.... My Opinion, YMMV....
  17. Formerbiker

    Formerbiker Monkey

    Just my $.02 opinion. Bolt or no the guns need to be in a safe. YMMV.
  18. mysterymet

    mysterymet Monkey+++

    Personally I keep all of mine locked up besides the ones used for personal protection. I have kiddos and even though we have tried to teach them proper gun safety, they are still little kids. As we all know, kids can be quite stupid. It is a wonder any of us made it through to adulthood. Our personal carry weapons are kept on us or in our vehicles or room depending on time of day.
    tulianr likes this.
  19. Hosster

    Hosster Monkey

    One of the guns he saved up for with his own money he earned from mowing lawns etc.
    I feel if he paid for it, he keeps it.
    Without a bolt it is no more a functioning gun then a car is without its engine.

    Allowing him to keep the guns in his room without a bolt would be like handing him the keys to a car with no engine.

    Luckily I live in a very redneck town. I talked to his teacher and guidance Counselor. They said it wasn't a problem other than it disturbed the girls at his school, and that he should limit gun talk to boys only.
    BTPost likes this.
  20. Donldson

    Donldson Monkey+

    Good to hear all is looking to be ok. Might be a good change to start instilling the concept of OPSEC. You never know who is listening to a conversation and to always think about which information should be shared and where. You can't make jokes in an airport line, stupid rules or not it is the fact of life right now. You can't make the same jokes to your boss on the clock as you could off the clock. There is a time and a place and school might not be the best to discuss certain things. Stupid standards or not it could help save a lot of hassle and start making him more aware of who can hear a conversation at any given time.
    BTPost and Hosster like this.
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