So you believe that Drugs Usage is a Victimless Crime?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by HK_User, Mar 14, 2016.

  1. HK_User

    HK_User A Productive Monkey is a Happy Monkey

    Below is an excerpt from this article shows how druggies get some of their drug money.

    News On 6 previously reported that 1,500 head of cattle were stolen in Oklahoma in 2014. Our story also pointed out that 80 percent of those suspects had drug-related history or also were charged with drug crimes in conjunction with livestock theft.


    Oklahoma House Passes Bill To Raise Stakes On Cattle Rustlers

    Posted: Mar 10, 2016 5:18 PM CDT Updated: Mar 10, 2016 6:34 PM CDT
    By: Brandi Ball,

    With cattle theft on the rise the past two years in Oklahoma, legislators are weighing stiffer punishments for the criminals, a move that is celebrated by the state's farmers and ranchers.

    On Thursday, the Oklahoma House of Representatives passed HB 2504 by a vote of 71-21, another step forward in making those penalties a reality.

    "The Oklahoma Cattlemen's Association is very appreciative of Representative John Pfeiffer of Mulhall for patiently working this important bill through the House," OCA Executive Vice President Michael Kelsey said. "We also want to thank all of our members who called into the Capitol in support of the bill the past two weeks. Your efforts definitely helped pass the bill."

    Proponents of HB 2504 particularly are concerned with making it possible for prosecutors to charge suspected cattle rustlers with a separate offense for each head of cattle stolen.

    Currently, the language of state statutes has tied the hands of district attorneys in a way, and an alleged cattle thief is charged with one felony offense no matter if they take two steers or 200.

    “It really just puts it back in the hands of the DA and gives them an option,” OCA foundation and program coordinator Jeff Jaronek said. “It says they ‘may’ charge a person with a separate offense for each animal. And we think that is fair to the property owner and to the prosecutors to give them a choice based on each case. If it is a person the DA has dealt with before, then they would have the ability to take a harsher approach if they saw fit.”

    Oklahoma Cattlemen's Association

    Gone are the days when cattle rustlers were hung in the streets, but it isn’t a crime left behind in the pages of the Old West history books. It is a crime that happens frequently, keeping small teams of investigators in predominantly agricultural states like Oklahoma very busy.

    News On 6 previously reported that 1,500 head of cattle were stolen in Oklahoma in 2014. Our story also pointed out that 80 percent of those suspects had drug-related history or also were charged with drug crimes in conjunction with livestock theft.

    Citing the 2015 data from the Oklahoma Department of Agriculture, Jaronek said there were 87 cases investigated in the state in 2015, which involved a total of 1,600 head of cattle, a slight increase, but one that has a costly outcome. That's millions of dollars of property loss to Oklahoma's farmers and ranchers.

    The original statute addressing livestock crimes was written in 1910, Jaronek said, and it has been updated several times since. The last remodel, however, was nearly two decades ago.

    Jaronek said a steady rise in cattle prices make it absolutely necessary to tweak the law again.

    That increasing cattle market value, coupled with the fact that livestock thieves are getting bolder and often flipping and selling off their stash quickly, raises the stakes, ranchers believe.

    “These are people’s livelihoods, and even more than that,” Jaronek said. “A rancher puts in a significant amount of time, money and resources into each animal … If you raise a heifer from birth, by the time you have gotten calves out of them, not only would a thief be stealing the genetics you’ve worked years to develop, but they are stealing the future years of production she has left. It will be three years before you can recoup the loss from one cow.

    "This isn’t like stealing an iPhone or laptop; livestock theft is not a crime of convenience. It is a meticulous, thought-out, premeditated crime that requires a person to have equipment to carry out the theft and a place lined up to take the animals.”

    OCA representatives also point out that while livestock theft isn’t always a violent crime on its face, it is possible for it to become violent in nearly every case.

    “The majority of the thieves are caught with loaded firearms on them,” Jaronek said. “It has the potential to turn violent in a hurry.”

    HB 2504 also tightens up some of the previous language in a minor way, but the penalties -- prison time and fines -- remain the same. A conviction for felony livestock or husbandry theft already is punishable by a prison term of at least three years and no more than 10 years, and/or by a fine in an amount that is equal to three times the value of animals and machinery that were stolen, not exceeding $500,000.

    The bill addresses other livestock and not just bovine. Also named as punishable by the above means is the theft of any equine or swine.

    The conviction for stealing a dog, sheep or goat is mentioned in the bill as well. It is punishable by a lesser term – six months minimum and three years maximum in prison – with the same monetary penalty as for cattle and horses.

    HB 2504 now moves to senate committee. Then, OCA hopes, the language will move to the senate floor for a vote and become state law by Nov. 1.

    OCA is urging Oklahomans to call their state senators to express support of the language changes in the law. [Search for your state senator here]

    “People work their whole lives to raise their livestock, and it’s a business and it's a way of life,” Jaronek said. “We just want the punishment to be reflective of the crime and reflective of the loss."
    Legion489, stg58 and chelloveck like this.
  2. chelloveck

    chelloveck Diabolus Causidicus

    The article is interesting, and bears serious thought by legislators, and law enforcement agencies. The title of the thread is silly....the issue isn't that people in general consider that drug usage is a victimless crime CDF would indicate that drug usage leaves many victims in its wake., The actual issue is that research has indicated that cattle theft is correlated strongly with drug crimes.

    The correlation between drug crime and cattle theft is the issue to work with and overcome....not just the perception that personal drug use is victimless, (which seems to be a self excusing justification used primarily by substance users).
    Legion489 likes this.
  3. DarkLight

    DarkLight Live Long and Prosper - On Hiatus Site Supporter

    Drug use and drug abuse are not the same thing. A user isn't necessarily a thief and doesn't, by definition, steal for their habit.

    An abuser is far more likely to go the theft route and fall into all kinds of other categories.

    No, I'm not implying that it is in fact a victimless crime and no, I'm not condoning indiscriminate drug use, but your topic title is misleading and the story doesn't back it up.

    And now I'm done and really have no intention of coming back to the thread, straw man arguments just get my dander up. Words have meaning, that's why use them in favor of pointing and grunting (and occasionally flinging our own make).
  4. HK_User

    HK_User A Productive Monkey is a Happy Monkey

    Have a nice day and ignore the facts

    "News On 6 previously reported that 1,500 head of cattle were stolen in Oklahoma in 2014. Our story also pointed out that 80 percent of those suspects had drug-related history or also were charged with drug crimes in conjunction with livestock theft."

    And I quote this as a fact since the source for this report is:

    So straw man away.
    Tikka likes this.
  5. TXKajun

    TXKajun Monkey+++

    Eff 'em. Bring back the hanging or SSS.

    HK_User and tacmotusn like this.
  6. DarkLight

    DarkLight Live Long and Prosper - On Hiatus Site Supporter

    Nope, instead I'll ignore you. Not once did I question the veracity of the claim or the source of the report. I challenged that drug use and drug abuse are not the same thing. You get your dander up any time anyone questions your assertions, regardless of the post or thread.

    Your thread title is "So you believe that Drugs Usage is a Victimless Crime?". You then go on to post an article (again, one that I never questioned the veracity of) which talks of drug related history but also does not draw the distinction between users and abusers. There is a difference, whether you care to distinguish them or not. The focus of the article is on theft of livelihood, that being livestock, and theft of other property and mentions (once again, so there can be no argument on the fact, I did NOT question the veracity of the stated facts, figures or article in general) that the majority had drug related history. No mention, however, of the distinction, or the specific crimes charged and/or convicted for, in fact it's almost mentioned as an aside. The spend about as much time on the fact that they were armed in many cases.

    There is nothing to prove, one way or another, that they were drug users either. They may very well have been pushers, but that didn't make it into your OOD loop.

    I have no idea what your background is, nor do I really care at this point. I don't know if you lost someone to drug use or abuse. I don't know if you are a recovering or not. I don't know if you worked for big pharma or were kidnapped at the tender age of 9 and forced to work in a central american coca plantation. Totally irrelevant, but you seem to have fixated on one, rather small portion of an article and then gone sideways. Well, okay, I guess have at it.

    By the way, a straw man argument is (Wikipedia):
    a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not advanced by that opponent.

    You claim that drug use is not a victimless crime, and you provided an article that you claim backs that up. It doesn't. Were some 80% of the offenders drug users? No idea, doesn't say that. Doesn't say users, doesn't say abusers, doesn't say pushers, doesn't say mules, doesn't say manufacturers. It says "drug history" which can, and does include chronic pain patients who are NOT abusers by and large (there is always an exception, I get it).

    So, now I really am done because I won't even see the thread fact, I don't think I'll see any more threads. @HK_User, it is people like you that have finally driven me from the site for good. Have fun with YOUR straw man and may it keep you warm at night.
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2016
  7. stg58

    stg58 Monkey+++ Founding Member

    barry and the libs love to call them "non violent drug offenders" just because they went out with stolen money and bought their drug of choice with no violence.

    They should look at the larger picture the hundreds of turf war dope murders in large and increasingly in smaller cities along with the dope wars in Mexico.

    They can't say this is clean dope money and this is dirty dope money.
    HK_User likes this.
  8. TXKajun

    TXKajun Monkey+++

    Gosh, 2 in the last week. timberwolf and now darklight. Adios, muchachos.

  9. HK_User

    HK_User A Productive Monkey is a Happy Monkey

    I claimed nothing, the title is one I used for a double awareness of the world around us.
    Go back and read your first post, I doubt you realize yet what is in that post, maybe you should have waited 24 hours before you first replied.

    More to what I indicated in the Title I posted.
    Titles are just that, a heading meant to entice a look see, anything else is a real stretch of ASSUMING what is in the subject.

    verb (used with object), assumed, assuming.
    to take for granted or without proof:
    to assume that everyone wants peace.
    Synonyms: suppose, presuppose; postulate, posit.
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 14, 2016
  10. Mindgrinder

    Mindgrinder Karma Pirate Ninja|RIP 12-25-2017

    The high cost of living aint nothing like the cost of living high....
    HK_User likes this.
  11. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    @HK_User @DarkLight
    EZ does it. You are verging on bad things among friends. There are two arguments, one about use and abuse, and one on the effects of abuse. Sit back and read over, betcha you are in agreement, mostly.
    Ganado, Yard Dart, chelloveck and 2 others like this.
  12. HK_User

    HK_User A Productive Monkey is a Happy Monkey

    I have no disagreement with @DarkLight I just wonder why he went all ballistic.
  13. VisuTrac

    VisuTrac Ваша мать носит военные ботинки Site Supporter+++

    Simple, let them grow pot. If'n you wanna smoke it. Why steal to buy it when you can grow your own.

    I say get rid of the drug war. I'm tired of my tax dollars going to house people in for profit prisons.

    Just my 2 cents.
  14. HK_User

    HK_User A Productive Monkey is a Happy Monkey

    Problem is!

    The drug problem in most of MY AO is Speed.
    VisuTrac likes this.
  15. VisuTrac

    VisuTrac Ваша мать носит военные ботинки Site Supporter+++

    Maybe if Pot were readily available they might switch. Just think of the bonanza there would be for a donut franchise or taco bell.
  16. Mindgrinder

    Mindgrinder Karma Pirate Ninja|RIP 12-25-2017

    U mean crystal meth...
    The solution there is not pretty....
    You're not talking aboot something that people "come back" from.
    They're GONE.
    And just to stay on topic...
    I HIGHLY doubt that it's meth heads rustling cattle.

    Just sayin'

  17. Mindgrinder

    Mindgrinder Karma Pirate Ninja|RIP 12-25-2017

    I suspect @DarkLight has a more sophisticated understanding of the "drug problem".
    I certainly do...but it's mostly "anecdotal", personal experience and cultural.
    Ganado and Motomom34 like this.
  18. HK_User

    HK_User A Productive Monkey is a Happy Monkey

    Meth Heads steal anything, in the early days of their road to death they are often honest hard working folks, Bull Riders, Ranch Hands etc.. At this stage they can be your best friend, neighbor or a great hand on a Ranch.

    As they progress they become incapable to do much more than rob and kill for a single dollar from any place, person or time.
    Mountainman and Mindgrinder like this.
  19. 3M-TA3

    3M-TA3 Cold Wet Monkey Site Supporter++

    Pot heads. Munchies...
    Ganado likes this.
  20. HK_User

    HK_User A Productive Monkey is a Happy Monkey

    Well, I saw drugs, experienced and rejected it long ago, but I saw the waste it leaves in its use.
    The Fillmore West was a great place as long as it was just pot.
    I had friends that did a regular light show there so I had open access to the whole shebang.
    Fillmore West - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Janis was a great singer till she tripped too far and did not come back.
    I last saw her in Hawaii.
    Janis Joplin News Articles - Kozmic Blues
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