Special ops Marines to call for end of iconic machine gun: M2 'Ma Deuce' will soon be replaced.

Discussion in 'Firearms' started by HK_User, Jan 21, 2020.


  1. HK_User

    HK_User A Productive Monkey is a Happy Monkey

    Special operations Marines to call for end of iconic machine gun: M2 'Ma Deuce' will soon be replaced

    by Russ Read
    | January 21, 2020 12:05 AM
    Special operations Marines are aiming to replace their long-serving and iconic M2 machine gun. After more than 80 years with the M2 "Ma Deuce" weapon, Marine Corps Forces Special Operations Command, otherwise known as MARSOC, is seeking to lighten its machine gun load.

    First produced in 1933, the M2 quickly earned a reputation for reliability and power and is the longest-serving weapon in the U.S. military arsenal. Its .50-caliber round is one of the largest in existence, allowing the user to hit targets at more than 8,000 yards. With a firing rate reaching nearly 600 rounds per minute, the M2 is formidable in a firefight.

    “Witnessing the downrange effects of the .50-caliber bullet is an eye-opening experience,” wrote Gordon Rottman, author of Browning .50-Caliber Machine Guns. “There are few who can say they were wounded by a .50-cal. Those hit seldom say much more.”

    But all the power of the "Ma Deuce" comes with a price. Weighing in at more than 80 pounds, the M2 and its large-caliber ammunition are a heavy cargo — hence, the search for a lighter substitute.

    Two potential replacements have come forward. The Sig Sauer MG 338 system has completed a safety certification, company president Robert Cohen said in a statement. Also in contention is General Dynamics’s Lightweight Medium Machine Gun. The replacement weapon could come on-line as early as 2021.

    Created by the renowned firearms designer John Browning, the "Ma Deuce" has been used by more than 100 countries around the world, from Argentina to Zimbabwe. In the United States, it has been used by war fighters beyond those in MARSOC. The Army's Audie Murphy was awarded the Medal of Honor after single-handedly holding off a German squad with the help of an M2. Six decades later, Army Sgt. 1st Class Paul Ray Smith died while protecting a military aid station from dozens of Iraqi fighters, firing at them with an M2.
     
  2. Tully Mars

    Tully Mars Metal weldin' monkey

    I smell Heresy.
     
  3. DKR

    DKR Raconteur of the first stripe

    Say it ain’t so Ma
     
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  4. HK_User

    HK_User A Productive Monkey is a Happy Monkey

    First it was the 5.7x28, now Ma is looking for work.
     
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  5. Tully Mars

    Tully Mars Metal weldin' monkey


    After conducting a poll of active and former service members aged 21-95 the general response to the above was BS!!

    Older members especially mentioned the fact that after firing a 100 round belt they experienced an invigorating feeling in their "nether regions" that required assistance in standing up. Upon receiving assistance standing and balancing upon their third leg, to a man they were heard to say "F%#@ YEAH!
    To date no other weapons system can make this claim..
     
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  6. wideym

    wideym Monkey+++

    This short article doesn't say much. The M2 is a heavy MG, not a light or medium crew served MG. It is used on vehicles and in defensive positions, not carried around on foot patrols or raids. Along with the MK-19 40mm MG, it is one of the best mounted weapons available to warfighters. I don't ever see the Sig 338 replacing it in it's current role. The Sig 338 "might" replace the the M240 in the Marine Corp, but I'll only believe the current crop of new calibers and weapons replacing current weapons in service when I see it. All the nebulous industry insiders speculating and Pentagon requests for industry to submit products for evaluation often amount to curious photos of weapons that were to be the next big thing only to never materialize in service.
     
  7. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    The 338 is under development as a gadget between the SAW and MA to replace both, or so says Military dot Com a while back. I don't think it's gone for trials yet, but it is very definitely on the program.

    There will always be a place for MA in defensive positions.
     
  8. Tully Mars

    Tully Mars Metal weldin' monkey

    Tully's honest ta God 1st experience with Ma Deuce

    I was in my early 20's. My hunting partner was about my age now=mid 50's and worked for the NSA. Now we all knew it, but never talked about it as he would always slide the subject to something else whenever one of us was stupid enough to bring it up.
    Now my buddy loved to hunt as did I. I "adopted" his daughter as my kid sister and that's how we got to be friends. One morning we went out to this military reservation to hunt, Checked in to the MP Station ,got our card and away we went.
    Fast forward to late midday. we ain't seen shit. Buddy says F it, head up over that hill it will cut miles off our return trip. I slam the 'ol GMC into low lock and up we go. Up and over. I stop at the crest and switch into 2x. Head down and all of a sudden there are red thingys zippin over the top of the cab and the most Godawful snaps you ever heard. My bud said something like "Christamighty they's trying to kill us" Trust me when I say that brown 1/2 ton set a new land speed record getting off that hill. We skidded up on that road like a scene in gone in 60 seconds with a butter bar and a 1st sergeant wanting to know WINF we were doing there. My buddy looked at me and said,"STFU .Stay in the truck, I'll handle this."
    After the last 90 seconds I was only more than willing to comply. After about 3 minutes and my buddy flashing something in his wallet everyone was backslapping and laughing-except me. Like a scene from Tombstone where Doc says, "Oh Johnny, I apologize; I forgot you were there" my buddy motions me to get out of the truck. Now you gotta remember I'm a 20 something no nothing. All of a sudden this butterbar is saying how sorry he is about this whole thing and he WILL have a talk with the enlisted man that should've had that trail blocked off. and Hey, have you ever fired a M2 before?? Well hell son step right up-and while yer at it, test drive that LAWS only have the 33mm rounds but it's still kinda cool. Oh and put him on that 81 mm too..
    To this day I don't know all the stroke my buddy has/had, but I can say he's given me a good heads up over the years.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2020
  9. Ura-Ki

    Ura-Ki Grampa Monkey

    Say it ain't so! Ma saved my bacon more then once, and I ain't shy of sayin I have a long love affair with the Ol' Girl!
    She was a ornery temperamental ol bitch, half the time she would bust her timing key, the other times she would spit out various feed parts, once the entire feed ramp, but she mostly ran when asked, or was pretty easy to get back to spittin in short order! Very rarely did she ever get hard bent, and when she did, it took every thing I had to keep from pitching her out the door for a long drop in hopes of killin what needed a killin from the impact of that 80 pound monster! She cost me though, I lost the hearing in my right ear, due to half a belt through her less then three feet from the muzzle with no hearing protection! It was as bad as bad can get, and yet she did what she was designed for, killin in a way only Ma could! One of the most amazing and flat out scary things I ever saw was Ma lightin up a ridge line of insurgents, literally taking them apart, it was nasty business, and the after scene was as gruesome as the best slasher movie ever, but she worked, far better then any other tool in the box, and i'm eternally grateful Ol J.M. Browning made her, bitch and all, I wouldn't be here if not for Ma! War fighting ain't pretty, never was, and you want the best tools for the business, Ol'Ma is the best of the best for that type of work, I hope the other forces don't follow, though for the last 50 years of so, they have all tried, and failed, so we will see! Colt came closest, it was actually a far better design, but the brass wouldn't have anything to do with it! Sad days ahead if ol Ma gets turned out to pasture, but she has earned her place in history, one of the finest weapons ever designed, and by none other then the legend hiself, Saint John Moses Browning!
     
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  10. wideym

    wideym Monkey+++

    Back in 97' while I was my unit's armourer at Ft. Campbell, our TO&E changed (11H anti-tank) and we received WWII manufactured M2's that had be updated with all the current changes at the time. They had been sitting in a warehouse for decades and once they were wiped down, they fired without any issue while assigned there. Not due to any special knowledge or demanding maintenance, but that they were well designed and updated as time went on.

    I actually was sent to armourer's school because I was the primary offender in breaking an M2. I was did not receive an Article 15 or court martial or even have to pay for the M2 that had to be coded out as destroyed. Oddly enough the higher ups thought sending me to school was punishment. Mainly I received no "punishment" due to the fact that the M2's at the time were borrowed from an Aviation unit were poorly maintained and did not come with -10 manuals, so they could hardly blame a full bird private for not reading the manual when there was no manual to read.
     
  11. hot diggity

    hot diggity Monkey+++ Site Supporter+++

    Not high speed or stylish, but I always made sure my gunners kept indirect fire with the M2 in their bag of tricks. It's very disruptive to an enemy's morale to have high angle .50 cailber ball raining down during breakfast.
     
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  12. Oddcaliber

    Oddcaliber Monkey+++

    When are the 50's coming up for sale? I want one!
     
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  13. oldawg

    oldawg Monkey+++

    My own experience from more than fifty years ago says that Ma will still be around and welcome on the first star ships patrolling distant galaxies. Admitted we didn't have to hump the fat bottomed girl anywhere, just let her ride along with us on our PBRs. If you ran into some unfriendly gentleman,monkeys,or trees and other assorted boogiemen trying to impede your progress forward on a given waterway a few burst from the bow twin fifty and/or stern ma deuce was in order. IF you could hear anything other than the bells of St. Marys playing a boogie woogie tune in your head after that it would have been the patter of beaucoup feet doing a most riki tik retreat away from the AO to a chorus of DI TIEU! DI TIEU! DI TIEU!!!! When Ma had something to say EVERYBODY listened. Want to stop any negative reactions from an interdicted vessel? just train the muzzles of those beautiful fifties on them. They WILL mind their manners. So yeah she holds a place in my heart right along with St. Browning's other little trinket, my 1911s.
     
  14. Re: Hot Diggity's post #11 above. I worked with a vet who had been in an artillery unit. He called the Ma deuce "Half inch howitzers"
     
  15. Bandit99

    Bandit99 Monkey+++ Site Supporter+

    I never got the chance to shoot one, shot the M60 and M240 but never the M2. However, I have seen the results and the best word I can think to describe it is - scary. I would hate to be on the receiving end of it - I mean - the damn thing will punch through almost anything tearing apart any cover one might have, trees, telephone poles, cars...just plain scary. They might be giving the infantry something more portable but in a defensive position or on a vehicle they are exactly what you want so I truly doubt they will ever be totally replaced - not until we're killing each other with lasers or back to bows and arrows.
     
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  16. hot diggity

    hot diggity Monkey+++ Site Supporter+++

    I get to talk to a few of the SOTG/MARSOC guys at the range when they're in town. They always have somebody at higher levels that wants to throw money at the problem. This is more than the usual rock painting after a change of command, and far more dangerous. They wanted a handgun that fired a .45 ACP round. Could've bought sweet off the shelf 1911's from a dozen U.S. manufacturers that would fit the operator's needs, but they had $$$ to spend, so they got the M45A1 CQBP. As delivered, they were great... but somebody decided that they needed some additional special coating to make them more rust resistant. (What ever happened to cleaning them!) This altered enough clearances that the pistols would no longer run reliably. Since there were a bunch of folks on the ramp of an aircraft, who needed a handgun that worked, they again broke out the Govt. credit card and bought a bunch of Glock 18's.

    Now they see a need for a lighter heavy machine gun? The 240G (my last USMC MG) won't do the job? Like the (unaltered) 1911a1 and the Glock 18, the M2 is a proven design that works. You can spend loads of money on building a new light/heavy machine gun, but unless it'll perform down range with the effectiveness and reliability of the M2, the real cost will be in lives.
     
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  17. Ura-Ki

    Ura-Ki Grampa Monkey

    Having been in the aviation side of things, weight was always a serious concern, and with all the different weapon systems that came through our shops, the M-2 Heavy was the only compromise we could always justify! Only had two requests, more ammo on board, and loose all the other tactical shit we never used! Our Birds were right on the limit of Max take Off Weight, and hot and high was an abysmal 800 feet, usually requiring you to over spool the turbines to go above that, or when the temps went into the 100's!
    We were glad to have those big .50's aboard, well worth their weight and weight of fire they could put down! Far better range and accuracy then any of the other weapon systems available, while not as fun or impressive as the MG-134 with it's 6000 rounds per min firing rate, Ol'Ma-Duce turned up to around 800 rounds per min sure spoke loudly and accurately, while only needing a quarter of the ammo load! When she got hard bent, we had ( usually) a M-240b or M-249 on board with accompanying ammo supplies, some crews would ditch the back up gun and bring along tripods for the M-2's so we could dismount and provide heavy machine gun support to ground teams, but that didn't happen too often, many crews preferring to stay airborn and directing accurate fire with the old girl firing I.R.tracer so the accompanying A-10's had good targeting! While a light weight version would have been most welcome, all the other options we tried left us wanting our M-2's back!
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2020
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  18. hot diggity

    hot diggity Monkey+++ Site Supporter+++

    Keep waiting for that CMP Sales Update. [LMAO]
     
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  19. Bandit99

    Bandit99 Monkey+++ Site Supporter+

    I wish I could purchase a M249 Saw...that's what I want. I never shot one and I imagine you have to change the barrels often but...I want it anyway. I heard somewhere they are replacing those also...
     
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  20. Tempstar

    Tempstar Monkey+++

    I couldn't afford to shoot one if they gave it to me, but the one time I did was a most pleasurable experience. Something about 750 grains of jacketed lead hurtling towards a target at 1600 miles per hour still causes a stir in the nether regions.
     
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