1. Given the media intensity given to the Corona or Wuhan virus, there seems no reason to have posts on that very specific subject in several forums Accordingly, all of those posts will be moved to "Headlines". All new items on that subject should be posted there as well. This notice will expire on 1 April, or be extended if needed. Thanks, folks.

The national healthcare connundrum Xplained

Discussion in 'Politics' started by offgrittyt, Jan 31, 2020.

  1. offgrittyt

    offgrittyt You gonna eat that?

    Because of the shrinking of the domestic purchasing power of the over printed, debt backed, monopolized, Federal Reserve note, all items of course require an ever increasing quantity of shrinking dollar bills to purchase, but the cost of big ticket items such as housing, healthcare, vehicles and such have grown in respect to their already comparatively large purchase prices. About 20 years ago, the 80/20 plans that most employers participated in with their F.T. employees, began to erode due to the usual greed, (aka inflation), combined with a heavily accelerating, frenzied cash grab for the shrinking, weakening domestically, dollar bill which continues to this present day
    Presently, mainly the government employed and government retired and politicians enjoy free or subsidized, (via taxation and debt), healthcare coverage while of course the stinky rich can purchase any level of healthcare insurance they desire.
    Some employers still make a noteworthy contribution to workers healthcare but those numbers have dropped significantly and a reduced wage more often than not reflects the employers contribution.
    The poor who own little beyond pay TV services and rented furniture who will not work work get the, "free", (Taxation and Nationalized Debt funded), Federal and State healthcare programs.
    For the relatively small percentage of those who genuinely cannot work or otherwise pull their own societal weight, there are Federal and State Healthcare programs.
    The working poor, (seems that that number is about 12 million people), either go without any health insurance at all or purchase healthcare via the disappearing affordable healthcare act.
    Note: Along with the greedy cash grab for the almighty, domestically shrinking, overprinted and debt backed U.S. dollar, the OBESITY EPIDEMIC, (that no one talks about), along with the PRESCRIPTION DRUG EPIDEMIC and host of lifetime medical complications that accompany these medical conditions, has significantly contributed to driving the cost of healthcare up through the roof.
    Side Note: There are only two genders, stop. But, if a person upon reaching the age of 18 wants to have their junk surgically hacked up and undergo a lifetime of medical complications and ailments so they can mimic a gender that they never actually will be, fine with me, I will neither hate them for it nor discriminate against them, HOWEVER, those medical costs are on THEIR DIME not mine. (Sheesh, national common core indoctrination truly has replaced common sense).
    In Conclusion, there is of course ZERO plan, ability, intent or incentive for the free market to replace the affordable healthcare act by offering service to low end earning working people. Those who already have health insurance could give a rats ass about those who do not have affordable healthcare because their getting theirs and that's all that matters.
    And the beat goes on.
    Great country Murica!

  2. mysterymet

    mysterymet Monkey+++

    Masshealth the state run “health insurance” in MA death paneled my mother. She died then they tried to confiscate what was left of her estate because they paid for for her care than she had paid in premiums. The only reason they couldn’t is we signed it over to our permanently disabled sister. The VA is government run healthcare and it generally sucks. I could go to the VA but would rather pay in to my employer’s plan instead. You or anyone else will never ever be able to say anything to convince me that government run healthcare is a good thing.
  3. Thunder5Ranch

    Thunder5Ranch Monkey+++

    Grew up with Rez Healthcare also Federally administered healthcare. It is probably worse than having no health coverage.
    offgrittyt, mysterymet and Bandit99 like this.
  4. Bandit99

    Bandit99 Monkey+++ Site Supporter+

    I will have to agree with @Thunder5Ranch "Federally administered healthcare. It is probably worse than having no health coverage." and @mysterymet "...convince me that government run healthcare is a good thing."

    However, where I different is I believe we have no other choice. I believe government will have to get involved. I don't want that and hoped the threat of it might change things but...no. Yes, I have heard all the other alternatives and they are good ones BUT they will never happen - period. No matter what reason, cause or justification - never will happen. At some point, one must simply face reality...unfortunately, that happens to millions of Americans when they or their family members become ill.

    And, the reason it will never change is $$$. Pure and simple... You can try to tell me all the reasons but...it comes down to the bottom line. Hell, the Insurance industry and the Healthcare industry is a self-licking ice cream cone! Think about it!

    Healthcare in this country has turned into pure and simple blackmail. It can be as brutal as you pay or you or yours die. Frankly, I wish they would call it that instead of Healthcare... Want to ruin your family financially for the current and next generation? Healthcare will do that and more - legally! I got a neighbor that's happening to right now, father is dying, no cure, costs are mounting, they will be forced to file bankruptcy...ruined. Yet...how much was given away in Foreign Aid? How much spent on the Political Theater called the 'Russia Delusion' and the 'Impeachment on Allegations'?

    Sometimes I feel like I am a broken record with all this stuff but for ALL the Federal/State/Local Agencies and taxes, I cannot get medicine priced to compared with Canadian medicine. I can drive 2.5 hours and get the exact same medicine at ~20% the cost, see a doctor for ~25% the cost and, no, I do not carry any Canadian insurance but pay straight out of my pocket.

    Of course, I have written both my Senators, one ignored me and the other gave me a ton of BS but couldn't and wouldn't answer my simple question of "If the Canadians can do it cheaper why can't the Americans?" Again, its the bottom line...and how that bottom line affects politics.

    My wife who is 46, good health, doesn't have health insurance and to cover her with a totally crap policy costs $300-400 per month. I got a neighbor who works at Home Depot, good fellow, their medical insurance is pretty much crap and he currently is seeing what VA can do for him...stories are always the same. You pay exorbitant, unrealistic prices or you roll the dice. There is no middle ground...

    Don't get me wrong! I am NOT looking for a handout! I am NOT looking for perfection! But, I am looking for fair prices for medicine and services, that's it! And, Canada shows that it can be done - it certainly isn't perfect, far from it - but it solves a good portion of the problem. But, I am NOT even asking for a Canadian system! I am simple asking for them to do something that has impact, something that solves even a small portion of the problem, a baby-step...but no. Nothing. And, it never will...They can't!

    Anyway, I know most here get sick of me ranting on this but...there is nothing on God's green earth that is going to change anything on American Healthcare! It is the sweetest blackmail scheme going and all perfectly legal and pays the politicians bills (who all have gold plated medical insurance). So, we can all bitch and moan but it won't do a damn thing... Hell, it never does...

    EDIT: You know I swore that I would vote for Bennie Sanders simply due to this one issue - Healthcare. Unfortunately, I cannot do that, I just can't, but I do believe something like a nationwide insurance policy one can purchase for $100+ dollars a month is badly needed. It wouldn't be perfect but it would be a start.
    offgrittyt and Thunder5Ranch like this.
  5. Merkun

    Merkun furious dreamer

    For a long time, I wondered about the delta between Canadian and US costs. Then it hit me!! The canucks negotiated prices that are below costs. Guess who makes up the difference?
    3cyl, offgrittyt, mysterymet and 2 others like this.
  6. Thunder5Ranch

    Thunder5Ranch Monkey+++

    I do have to agree. Two ends of the spectrum are killing the middle. The uninsured that use the ER as a family practice and never pay their bills. Then the other end with Top shelf plans that insurance pays pretty much everything without question. I worked for the Gov long enough to become vested in the pension and top shelf insurance for life. Wife has worked for the State Gov for 30 years and is set for life LOL much better pension that the one I will get when I take it at 65 and gets hers at 55. Either staying on hers or using my own, we have top tier insurance free for life. Examples of top tier...... $33,000 scope down the throat procedure....... My co pay was $150. $1900 per month prescription I take..... Co pay is $13.

    Is it fair that I have that available and other people have plans ranging from crap to good and others no insurance at all? NOPE it ain't fair at all. But here is where part of the problem is on my end. The hospital bills it and the insurance pays it no questions asked. Say you have a lower quality insurance... they don't pay it no questions asked... been there and done that, where every charge was questioned with a lesser plan than I have now. On the other end all those folks going to the ER for a common cold with no insurance and making a big bill that never gets paid raises the cost of things for the middle that get stuck having to pay it or do without. Third part is good ole fashioned corporate greed from Pharma to hospitals to Insurance Companies.

    Guess where I am going with this is the average person is who gets stuck paying for it from all three directions. Nationalized health insurance would be great if everyone got timely top quality care, we know however that is not the case where it has been implemented. I left home a dirt floor poor mixed blood with a pretty solid set of mostly illegal skills and have fought and scraped for every thing I have........ great health insurance being one of those things. Is it fair that under a nationalized system that I would lose benefits or have those benefits taxed because I made smart choices and did the things required to get a job with a contract that included a good pension and great health insurance? On the other hand should those without great insurance be denied care because their lack of insurance or insurer refuses to cover something?

    Was picking up my prescription a few months back and did the card and co pay thing and the guy in line behind me said "It must be nice to only pay $13 for that!" Got to talking and he has the exact same prescription and his copay is $650, the poor schmuck with no insurance..... would be stuck with the whole $1900. So what this tells me is the entire insurance, medical and pharma system is REALLY broken when those who can afford it the least pay the most, those in the middle pay any where from $13 to 75% and those at the top don't get pinched for much at all.

    Then we have to ask is Health Insurance and Care a Right? If it is then is equal housing a Right? Is food a Right? Is equal transportation a right? I am usually not a fan of slippery slope arguments as they are usually a bunch of maybe, possibly, perhaps arguments. I accept them in the case of Government and Social Engineering, as our Government seems to love going down slippery slopes either out of idiocy or intent or worse idiotic intent. Perhaps Government should be reeled back to exactly what the Constitution specifies its role is?
    offgrittyt, mysterymet and Bandit99 like this.
  7. Bandit99

    Bandit99 Monkey+++ Site Supporter+

    Frankly, if you asked any big pharma they will wring their hands and say the entire world is receiving medicine below costs! LOL!

    However, I honestly think it is more they negotiate for the cost of medicines that are allowed to be sold in their country and they can easily do this because of the national health insurance; nevertheless, they are negotiating the costs and big pharma agrees to these prices, which obviously is a much, much smaller profit margin than here stateside, because it allows them access to the Canadian market.

    Now, when you comes to the good old USA - well - laissez-faire (French for “Let people do as they choose" or perhaps "Let's screw people as much as we can." Why? Because they can... "Whatever the market will bear" and when it comes to Healthcare - well - do we honestly have a choice? Will you see your child or spouse die because of a lack of a high cost drug? No, you will not. You will pay. No matter what the cost. You. Will. Pay. It brilliant, it's legal and it's blackmail.

    So, in that regard, whatever profit margin they lose in Canada, Africa, Europe or where ever they definitely make it up in the USA up to a point where the public pushes back... And, we're talking billions upon billions, enough to put senators and reps in their pockets to ensure no Bills even come close to hurting the USA golden goose.

    Currently, my wife in in Central Asia and she is getting the costs of some special drugs and some general drugs like antibiotics.
    I want to compare those costs to Canada and American costs. Yes, most of them medications are NOT made in America but most of the meds we get in American are not made here anymore either. LOL! Anyway, I told her only European, Indian, Russian manufactured medicines and, of course, American... I will publish these costs if anyone is truly interested. I am collating to send to my Senators...like it will help anything! LOL!
    offgrittyt and oldawg like this.
  8. Bandit99

    Bandit99 Monkey+++ Site Supporter+

    I'd say you got a fair and solid hold on the problem. Most people seem to think that those who scream about Healthcare are indeed asking for a handout, that's it's a right and I imagine some are - not me. I do not wish to be tied to the friggin government as I was forced to be under that ObamaCare crap. OMG! I was getting threating letters every week! No thanks.

    I am simple asking not to allow these crooks to blackmail me for every dime I have because they can. I'm asking for fair pricing for medications and services - that's it! Why do I have to pay 5X more for the exact same medications that I can buy just 2 hours away? And, they can't explain it or they would twist some lie to fit it. All I want is a level playing field...and let's not kid ourselves, it will take government intervention. There is no other way... Canada and America should double team Big Pharma to start.

    As far as one person making better plans, having more money so better insurance plan...that is part of life and it's called 'Freedom of Choice' but the basic costs should be the same but what we got is all the Healthcare Industry, Insurance Industry and the Pharma Industry tied at the hip to get the most profit out of the USA which covers losses elsewhere in the world.
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2020
    offgrittyt likes this.
  9. offgrittyt

    offgrittyt You gonna eat that?

    In the beginning of the 2000's my paycheck remained stagnant, (a 2-3% cost of living raise to match government's CPI increases is stagnation), while my employer was steadily reducing their healthcare premium contribution due to rapidly spiraling upward healthcare costs which continue to this day. As a result, I eventually became unable to afford my employer's health coverage offering and there was no alternative so when I dropped coverage I became one of millions of non government employed, working uninsured.
    I cannot fathom how having nothing could be better than something but maybe, please explain if you would?
    Thank you
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2020
  10. Seawolf1090

    Seawolf1090 Retired Curmudgeonly IT Monkey Founding Member

    There are plenty of us state employment retirees on limited pensions who have no healthcare. Too expensive, or won't cover us with serious health problems.
    So, yeah..... we get screwed.
    Being handicapped and ineligible for SSD hurts too.
    Maybe I should go to Mexico, change my name to Pedro and sneak back in. I could demand free healthcare, and get it. :cautious:
    Bandit99 and offgrittyt like this.
  11. mysterymet

    mysterymet Monkey+++

    It is because the american consumer is hit with the total R&D costs for new drugs because other countries with government run systems restrict what costs can be passed to the consumers and in poorer countries they can’t up charge because they will be touted as “evil capitalists” trying to hurt the poor!
    Bandit99, offgrittyt and ghrit like this.
  12. offgrittyt

    offgrittyt You gonna eat that?

    There are only thirty some odd million Canucks and they have mondo natural resources which the royal parliamentary government has its way with. Canada does not fund a huge war industry nor the wars that are required to create demand for the goods and services of the industry of war. The wealthy fractional percentage of Canadians that operate the country spend peace dividends to passify a one size fits all, proletariat majority which includes supplementing the cost of prescription meds. Yippeee!
  13. offgrittyt

    offgrittyt You gonna eat that?

    Is not upcharging a bad thing?
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 31, 2020
  14. duane

    duane Monkey+++

    Since none of the drug companies seem to be going broke and drugs are still available, perhaps part of the cost of that 1500 a month prescription is used to cover that tens of million dollar judgement against the company by the lawyers for talcum powder or some other thing , and who usually keep a third, and the states getting millions for their drug treatment programs. When someone gets a 10 million dollar settlement for some medical suit, I am sure we will pay 15 million more as a group for our drugs or care and then we will also pay for unneeded tests or visits to allow the provider to cover his butt and we will also pay for the added malpractice insurance.
  15. offgrittyt

    offgrittyt You gonna eat that?

    I believe you Mysterymet. As a modestly compensated working person scrambling to find healthcare with affordable monthly premiums, I was lassoed last month by the Communistic party's recently elected governor of my state who was attempting to force me to accept her FREE healthcare plan. At first I was like, "Free, all I have to do is sit on the phone for hours at a time waiting to talk with inept government employees who are pssed off because they are forced to man the phones of government bureaucracy in exchange for a government check, holy heck in a handbasket whats not to like"?
    But, while my Communist governor, (who was elected by dumbass, common core dumfounded, public school raised voters), was trying to waylay me into signing on to her free plan, I happened by chance read the fine print of her free healthcare offering during the deluge of paperwork that was being sent to me at a frenzied pace from several state locations. The fine print said that if I accept her Communist governorship's "free" healthcare plan, that the "state" will seize my estate upon my passing, to pay for my "Free" healthcare.
    Of course, with over 91% and increasing of future USAmerican voters presently being raised in government's illegal, publicly forced funded, school monopoly, which is operated by an overwhelmingly Democratic Socialist Communistic staffed, private for profit, non right to work labor monopoly, I expect the common core made clueless majority to swallow the "state's" FREE health insurance plan hook, line and sinker, but I'm not.
    Sorry to hear of your mom's passing.
  16. Thunder5Ranch

    Thunder5Ranch Monkey+++

    The Feds forget or just don't pay the electric bill, so the electric to the dialysis clinic is shut off. If it needs stitches we recommend amputation, if it needs to be amputated we recommend stitches and some iodine . Doctors that can't seem to get a job any place else. After waiting hours, the nurse comes out and tells everyone to go home...... the doctor did not feeling making the drive that day. Kind of like State Pensions and VAs , it varies from Rez to Rez some have beyond great service and others not so much.
    mysterymet and offgrittyt like this.
  17. offgrittyt

    offgrittyt You gonna eat that?

    ThunderR, I am absolutely appalled yet I believe what you are saying.
    You know, when I watch M*A*S*H for example, I see a team of dedicated, talented, compassionate, capable, selfless, responsible, therefore, intelligent, individuals, (excepting the character of Major Burns), in the employ of government who are doing the best that they can with what they got to work with. I guess that's only in the movies ..
  18. offgrittyt

    offgrittyt You gonna eat that?

    Really good points. Excessively liberal amounts of money awarded to legal teams and plaintiff's over the past couple of generations have significantly driven up the cost of essential products and services as well as some non essentials. Few seem to make that connection; too mass common core culturally passivized to even take notice I suppose.

    Okay I see. You are also victimized by the greedy grab for wealthy government's overprinted, domestically weakening, national debt backed, Federal reserve's monopolized currency. The fight is not with you. I wish you the very best in this life and a better beyond ...
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 31, 2020
  19. offgrittyt

    offgrittyt You gonna eat that?

    Bandit, you really put a lot of thought into your response and I appreciate that. Much maybe all of what you say has traction. It's an unfortunate reality of profit and loss free enterprise that the free market cannot at this time offer healthcare insurance premiums that are commensurate with all income levels, but I also cannot blame them.
    Because of the overprinted dollar along with excessive national debt and a non sustainably large and omnipotent corporation of government, the numbers just don't work anymore unless your stinky rich or otherwise enjoy government employment that compensates above and beyond what the free market would naturally dictate for similar job descriptions.
    In order to reduce Federal, State and Local government cost and size by the required 50% along with halting the increase of national debt then reducing said debt by 2/3rds of present levels, we MUST break up government's illegal public school monopoly, usher in a renaissance of parenting in the USA, ban the prescribing of legal mind and mood altering pharmaceuticals to persons eighteen years of age and under and >>>
    duane likes this.
  20. duane

    duane Monkey+++

    You can never have health insurance and also accept preexisting conditions. If it does. it is no longer insurance. I would be at least 100,000 dollars ahead if the system would let me have a car accident, or my house burn down, or someone fall on my step, and then I could go down and "buy" insurance, that would cover the costs of the event. Why should health be different?
    We need some system to cover medical costs, but it won't work as an insurance plan where people can opt in. Lets face reality, the healthy 25 year old is not willingly going to pay for the 75 year old diabetic on life support. It also seems that allowing 20 % overhead for insurance overhead, some major costs for medical overhead, excess medical treatment, expensive specialized drugs expensive medical supplies and devices, for profit dialysis, long term care, and rehab, legal costs, and a host of other factors have lead to our country spending more per person than any other country in the world and still have poor outcomes. Since it is almost 20% of out total GDP and a high profit area, I do not expect the political system and their controlling lobby to come up with any easy solution and several of the alternatives being put forth may in fact hurt the middle class and even increase their costs and decrease the quality of care that they receive.
    offgrittyt likes this.
survivalmonkey SSL seal        survivalmonkey.com warrant canary