Civics What say you?

I'm not proposing or fomenting anything, but I have a serious question and I'm starting to get frustrated and angry. If the "Shelter in place" and house to house searches after the Boston Marathon bombing didn't cross the line (4th Amendment people), how about the following:
‘Light ‘Em Up!’: Video Appears To Show Law Enforcement Shooting Paint Rounds At Mpls. Residents On Their Porch

Text from the article, but you really need to watch the video with sound on:

"MINNEAPOLIS (WCCO) — A video posted to Twitter Saturday night is going viral after apparently showing law enforcement in Minneapolis shooting paint rounds at residents on their porch after curfew went into effect.

Tanya Kerssen posted the video to Twitter shortly after 9:30 p.m., showing what she says is the Minnesota National Guard and Minneapolis police sweeping her residential street in the Whittier Neighborhood.

In the video, the officers are seen approaching the residents and repeatedly yelling at them to get inside their house. After a few demands, one can be heard yelling “light ‘em up!” That’s when one officer appears to fire a paint round at the residents, who run inside.

Meanwhile, a WCCO photographer was struck by a rubber bullet and arrested by the State Patrol Saturday night. He was released from custody after a couple hours.

The curfew went into effect at 8 p.m. in Minneapolis."​

Curfew Order (Mayor Melvin Carter - St. Paul):
Emergency Executive Orders

Curfew Order (Mayor Jacob Frey - Minneapolis):
http://minneapolismn.gov/www/groups...m7D7-YbofnBjegSAN4cnsoSRWvxEd7de9we9HnUOtyT3w

In no instance does either order declare that you must be "in their homes", especially if they are on "private property". I'm not looking to get into the private property debate, we all know and agree. The porch is your home, and not included in the order, it's not "public".

And in absolutely NO way, shape or form is "shooting ANYTHING at people" allowed by the orders. Both orders state something to the effect of no more than "$1000 fine and 90 days imprisonment".

***Warning, I'm going to swear***
How the FUCK is this allowed? How the FUCK were head shots not taken from across the street? The police were assaulting people "in their homes" without even a no knock warrant!

The governor of Minnesota has been praised for how quickly he handled and released the CNN journalist that was arrested while COMPLYING with the officers, who had no right to arrest him as media was EXEMPT and allowed to continue being there (first amendment and all).
https://www.foxnews.com/media/cnn-reporter-crew-arrested-then-freed
And the whole thing was not only caught on camera, but was LIVE to the entire country. And do NOT start the "should have listened to the cops". HE WAS! HE DID! AND HE WAS EXEMPT by both the 1st Amendment AND State Law for "News Media" as opposed to the general media! If the stupid mother fucking pieces of shit officers couldn't see the Press Pass and the GIANT FUCKING CNN VAN AND LOGOS and literally 10's of thousands of dollars of PROFESSIONAL CAMERA EQUIPMENT (no, a blogger does NOT have that), he needs to be FIRED!
***Done swearing***

Oh, and it happened to more than one journalist. Keep that in mind.

We talk about "watering the tree of liberty" and "jackbooted thugs" and "the line". How much more needs to happen or is this all just armchair commando and bravado.

@BTPost , we get it, you're in the Alaskan bush and honestly nobody is coming up there, that would be dumb with "the road you can land on" or whatever.

But the rest of us, we talk about resistance if and when the time comes but nothing happens. We talk about "no more" but there is clearly more. We complain, we grouse, we harrumph, but then we turn to funny memes or we go garden or use our rain-barrel water to water the grass or we go to the store or we play our video game or we do something, anything other than start to fight back. Where is your line? Is it when you can't grow your own food or use rain or breathe air (ironically) or walk on northbound on the right side of the street?

Me, I'm stupid and lazy and have "a lot to lose". Kids, house, job, internet, video games, sleeping "peacefully" at night, all my fingers and toes and limbs and in working order. I won't lie, I don't want to lose that.

But if you can't honestly say you have a line, that was it, and if it happened in your neighborhood there would be one less LEO or National Guard member, you've accepted that we're done and it's over. You are welcoming the oppression.

The below is oft quoted, but the quotes are sounding more and more like bravado and virtue signaling:
And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

 

I agree, there's no "To protect and to serve" ethos in a police department that behaves this way.

Looking down the barrel of a paint ball gun is no different than looking down the barrel of a 20ga shotgun. My only observation is that the people on the porch must be conditioned to accept this sort of behavior. I suspect the "Light 'em up!" routine wouldn't end well around here.

 

I truly wonder if they would get away with that crap here (Northern Idaho). Maybe but I doubt it and if they did it wouldn't be for long. But, our police officers are truly different - well - the great majority are and the Sheriffs that are elected certainly are. I think much of the mindset here comes from what happened at Ruby Ridge and, believe it or not, people are still pissed about it. And, the common mindset it was pure BS from start to finish and it will not happen again here. Furthermore, everyone is armed and laws continued to be passed that reinforce our liberties here like stronger private property and trespassing laws, constitutional carry laws...

Having said that, I don't think it is my place to protect those people in MINNEAPOLIS for they have the same rights and means to protect themselves as I do to protect myself and the folks here.

@BTPost " You don’t go after the little Guys, you go after the ones in charge, starting at the Top, and working your way down, to the guy who yelled “Light’’em Up”..."
Yep! Exactly! The only problem with that is 'you're fighting City Hall' - meaning - first they have unlimited funds for defense (courtesy of the taxpayers) and even if they lost or settle out of court who really pays the lawsuit...the taxpayers. Furthermore, trying to get jail time for ANY of these a$$holes is truly a Mission Impossible. Hell, look at the thousands of big name cases where elites just walk away or never even get charged or go to a courtroom...unless you happen to be an elite like Epstein who knows too much. Still, the courts are the only viable option to redress a grievance like this.

 

"Laws" are not needed to exercise God-given rights, certainly not ones specifically enumerated in the US (and many State) Constitutions.

 

Yep, clear lawsuit material here. What would happen if a group of "us" were to do exactly what the cops did, to the cops? "Light them up" with paintballs. We know..... they'd bring out the real guns and lay waste to us "little people"! There is a very obvious double standard here. "They" can use "us" as target practice, but not the other way round. I am sure those cops thought it was great fun. What these cops did was disgusting and reprehensible.

 

Sounds like a real need for a surpressed 50cal air rifle.

 

I'm just going to drop this grenade right here and let you guys kick it around!

Pentagon Prepares Military Police for Minneapolis Deployment as Protests Over George Floyd's Murder Continue

 

The mission of military police isn't wholly compatible with civilian policing.

 

True, but there are enough parallels to make do. MPs are simply cops, as you may remember. In my case, it was the SP. A bit of overtraining and changes to the ROE will let them adapt.

 

All true! As a Active Duty service member deployed stateside during Katrina, We had VERY strict ROE's covering what was expected and what we were NOT allowed to do! Our job was to rescue people in need, anything else was to be strictly hands off, and if needed, we were to contact local LEO! While my teams were authorized to carry sidearms, we were warned explicitly, not to engage anyone for any reason unless it was life and death! The Mil Police that were on scene also had very strict instructions on what where and how they were to do their jobs, and they had to answer to the local authorities first, not act on their own!

 

While watching our little riot unfold here in Myrtle Beach this evening, I was kinda upset to see SLED (State Law Enforcement Division) "Troops" here in full battle rattle. They have wormed their way around Posse Comitatus by militarizing the police. I don't like it.
Fortunately, they imposed a 6 PM curfew and carted van loads of the protesters off to jail as of this evening. They did have a "Credible Threat" against the police station, and they lowered the hurricane shutters and had most of the cops around it.
It isn't the protesters they worry about here, it's Bubba when they piss him off.

 

I'm not as old as some here ,, and not sure how much longer I may live . I'm giving myself,,, maybe 15 years comparing that with my Dad , his Dad ,, if i last as long as they did ,, i may have a few less years. I really don't know why I've made it this long ,,, and i believe there are a few guys that lost their lives back in my .mil days ,, that i feel would have made better use of their lives than I have since then. Lord only knows why things worked out the way they did. But as I reach my Golden years ,, I'm not sure I'm all that comfortable leaving this shitpile laid up on my back sucking air that someone else could be using.
If I'm sitting on my front porch ,, not bothering anybody ,, just getting some fresh air ,, and I get bombarded with a bunch of paintballs and rubber bullets for doing nothing , and get chased back into the house ,, when I come back outta the house on the front porch , or peek over the backyard fence ,,, I dont even own a paintball gun , if that makes sense to ya. I think I'd rather go out in a blaze of glory ,, trying to return my country to what it was meant to be ,,, , than fading away living on my knees.
If I'm to leave this shitpile spewing blood everywhere ,,, I pray I'm near that Liberty Tree ,,

 

Paintball guns can be dangerous when used against individuals not prepare for them. To state the obvious, a person can easily lose an eye...

The thing here is, I do see the need for Law and Order in a crisis like this - I mean - these officers of the law are 'damn if they do and damn if they don't' situation. These protesters have turn into a mob, the peaceful protest into a riot. The officers are charged with trying to restore order. Now how can they do that if no one complies?

I am not saying they did the correct thing. In my mind, they didn't and given the option, I would show the one in charge to the exit door plenty quick. HOWEVER, that would indeed be IF we have been told the true and actually facts of the situation. Frankly, I find it hard to believe what we have been told is the complete truth. I am not saying it is or isn't but something seems fishy...especially when the police got their hands full with rioters.

In my mind, riots need to be stomped on hard and quick. Personally, I would not have a problem with rioters be shot down. I am not saying the LEOs are right or wrong but things have spun completely out of control and order needs to be restored...right damn now.

The peaceful demonstrators need to get off the streets and go home; they can come back and protest another day when order is restored. Furthermore, people should cooperate with Law Enforcement, assisting them to restore order and if that means 'going inside' when asked to do so then they should comply.

For now, this rioting needs to be stopped and the rioters need to be dealt with severely and, yes, that means shooting them down if necessary. These things will only get worse if not deterred in a harsh manner...and that's my opinion on it.

 

Yup. Delay just supports the "cause" by allowing rioting to continue.

Agree here, too, tho' I have to say that the shoot down order has to be carefully codified. I don't like it when the cops are blamed for passing out what is asked for and permitted, as in defending themselves and others.

In my state, shooting to defend others is allowed. That should be extended, methinks.

 

Didn't governor Spiro Agnew say to shoot looters?

 

I'm so glad that wasn't me or mine that was shot with a paintball. It woulda been on, and you guys would have missed good 'ol Tempstar. Too old to tolerate that crap any longer.

Why don't they roll out the fire trucks with water cannons like the good ol days?

 

Bruce - I didn't single you out because you live far away (directly), I was simply saying we know what your visceral reaction is going to be because it is every time. It's cool, and I'm jealous, just not jealous enough to follow suit. I was just circumventing that portion of the conversation.

As to "what do you expect the Porch Bandits to do"? First, they aren't porch bandits any more than you are. They were on their own private property doing literally nothing. Not provoking, not taunting, nothing. They didn't immediately cower behind the door and the "armed gang of thugs" as you so aptly named them opened fire. Paintball, rubber bullet, whatever, it doesn't matter.

At this point in time, yeah they should go the route of the courts and all that entails and you described. Honestly, reading what you wrote saddened me just a little. Essentially you are saying to rely on the courts and petition for redress and if you lose, at least you tried, but nothing would have changed. Right here and for years on this site you have quoted "go the route of the courts, and if you lose, then maybe it's time for the Second Civil War." And we keep going to the courts and things keep getting worse. Where is this ephemeral line that demarcates time for the Second Civil War? It's not getting better. At best the "getting worse" is just slowing down a little, maybe.

Ironically, we have those Constitutional Rights because a group of folks (roughly 3%) used their own resources to push back, to fight back, to categorically reject the old and create something new. Heaven knows it wasn't and isn't perfect, and unfortunately the imperfections have been exploited to the point that we have a very broken system, but it was better than what was there. If they'd left it to the courts and simply accepted a loss, we'd still spell color with a 'u' and be vassals of the Queen (but we'd get BBC, so there's that).

But if I'm honest, part of me almost (and this is key, almost, not really, not actually, almost) wishes that off camera you had heard someone say "You heard him, light 'em up" and then out of nowhere dozens of laser dots appear on every one of those oath breaking, pieces of human trash. I'm keeping it clean and that's as cleaned up as I can get. EVERY single one of them, at the very least, directly contradicted their "Mission and Values", which is so much hogwash!

The Minneapolis Police Department is a public safety agency that relies upon these values and behaviors for its effectiveness.

• Trust
• Accountability
• Professional Service

• We recognize that public safety is not just the absence of crime; it is the presence of justice.
• We are truthful and ethical in all we do, say, and write.
• We hold each other accountable.
• We build and rely upon trust with our communities.
• We do not engage in conduct, public or private, that would sully or shame the department.
​

And the Minnesota Law Enforcement Code of Ethics (bold is mine). Again, utter horse feathers in this instance.

“As a Minnesota Law Enforcement Officer, my fundamental duty is to serve mankind; to safeguard lives and property; to protect the innocent against deception, the weak against oppression or intimidation, and the peaceful against violence or disorder; and to respect the Constitutional rights of all to liberty, equality and justice.

I will keep my private life unsullied as an example to all; maintain courageous calm in the face of danger, scorn, or ridicule; develop self-restraint; and be constantly mindful of the welfare of others. Honest in thought and deed in both by personal and official life, I will be exemplary in obeying the laws of the land and the regulations of my department. Whatever I see or hear of a confidential nature or that is confided to me in my official capacity will be kept ever secret unless revelation is necessary in the performance of my duty.

I will never act officiously or permit personal feelings, prejudices, animosities or friendships to influence my decisions. With no compromise for crime and with relentless prosecution of criminals, I will enforce the law courteously and appropriately without fear of favor, malice or ill will, never employing unnecessary force or violence and never accepting gratuities.

I recognize the badge of my office as a symbol of public faith, and I accept it as a public trust to be held so long as I am true to the ethics of the police service. I will constantly strive to achieve these objectives and ideals, dedicating myself before God to my chosen profession…law enforcement.”​

I looked and cannot find a Minneapolis Oath of Office for Law Enforcement, and I won't assume it's the same as the city of St. Paul, which I could find. I'm willing to bet they broke it though.

My bigger question though and the one you did not answer is not "what would you have done", the question is what's the line if this isn't it? How far is too far? Will you ever revolt? Is there really, truly, a "V for Vendetta" moment for you? Does a white kid have to be killed by a cop? How about a nurse, or an engineer, or a band of 19yr old missionaries for not getting back to their apartment on time due to quarantine. I'm not being flippant, I'm using examples that would matter to you.

I would NEVER hope that something would happen to your or yours or those that you hold dear, but I'm trying to figure out if you actually have a line, and if so where it might be (roughly). I am trying to make it personal so you get it. This is an academic question for you, because you are out in the middle of BFE, which I've already addressed, but you are removed from it and that's kind of the essence of privilege. You can spout platitudes because really, nobody is coming to your neck of the woods. It's easy to say "stay the course" when it doesn't impact you in the least.

I don't actually expect an honest answer from anyone on this site because it sets them up for trouble in the future. I did expect what I got, to the tune of "probably wouldn't have been well received here in these here parts".

Personally, I think a lot about how I would act if my life was different. If I didn't have a wife and kids. If I didn't "have so much to lose". I know how I will react when I no longer have that to lose though, without question. I can count on one hand the things that hold me back, and that's not bravado or whistling in the wind and it would ultimately cost me my life, but if those 5 things or less were all gone I know what I would do.

Those things don't include the internet or cell service or my job or my car or air conditioning or any of the trappings. Those things are a number of people, at which point I have nothing left to lose. No, you all don't get any details from me either, because I'm not utterly stupid. I will also say there is a line, I do have one, and when it gets crossed I will kiss my wife, hug my children, and go off to war.

My point is to think about it. @Brokor for example has been trying to open people's eyes for YEARS, and we all sit here fat, dumb and happy as a pig in slop with our comforts and bitch about stuff and then get distracted and move on so that we can continue to be fat, dumb and happy as a pig in slop with our comforts and continue to bitch about the next thing. All the while we grow closer and closer to a dictatorship or NWO or socialist coup. The thumb screws get a little tighter, the water gets a little warmer, we bitch about the discomfort, wiggle a little, get used to the "new normal" and the process repeats.

I don't like where this looks like it's going. I mean, I REALLY don't like the obvious direction this has taken. Trump isn't making America Great Again, he's dividing as badly or worse than his predecessor. Both houses of Congress are complicit in dismantling the remaining facade of this country. Those "sworn to protect", which many of them actually are by their individual oaths regardless of the SCOTUS "no duty to protect and serve" ruling, aren't doing so. It's rampant, it's everywhere, and its getting worse. Even if this all "blows over" and winds down, it will not go back to how it was. We've taken one more step, the water is a little warmer, and once it warms up it never cools back down.

Are you willing to fight to fix this? If the answer is no, which is fair and honest for some people (giving up liberty for security), then be honest with yourself and others. If the answer is yes, I guess I'm just wondering if I'm alone in my line. If anyone else really would finally say "fuck it...light 'em up".