rimfire strategy (bison)

Discussion in 'Firearms' started by Tango3, Jun 8, 2010.

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  1. Tango3
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    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    Jim dakin over at bison has posted a nice pieceon his ideas about postshtf rimfires.A comment links to the Russian sv-99; a .22lr sniper for short range urban sniping based on a toggle action biathalon rifle:
    Seems the Chechens fighting with what they had made the russians pay dearly with their rimfires under 100 yards.

    http://bisonsurvivalblog.blogspot.com/2010/06/rimfire-strategy.html



    Google Image Result for http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sv99-mag.jpg





    - The victim is dead if you shoot him in the head, whish is what pros usually aim for (as these guys like to say, "two in the head and you know he's dead.")

    2- There is hardly any sound if you use a silencer, and not much even if you don't.

    3-A 22 caliber pistol is small, even with a silencer. That makes it easier to conceal, and easier to dispose of.

    Then the Russians noted that Chechen snipers were effectively using .22 LR (long rifle, them little bullets kids use to hunt squirrels and rabbits with) weapons. Inside towns and cities, the .22 LR sniper was very effective, especially since the Chechens would improvise a very workable silencer by putting a plastic bottle on the end of the rifle's barrel, with a hole in the bottom of the barrel for the bullet to exit. Using a cheap scope, Chechen snipers were very deadly at ranges of less than a hundred meters. Such ranges were pretty common in built up areas. And since you usually did not hear the shot (to the head or face, of course), you had a hard time finding the shooter. Having suffered from these low tech .22 caliber Chechen snipers for ten years, the Russians have come out with their own professional .22 LR sniper rifle, the SV-99. This is a little heavier (at 8.3 pounds) than your usual .22 LR rifle, but is built for professionals. It has a heavier barrel, a bipod, silencer and scope. It's 39 inches long and can accept five, eight or ten round magazines. There is a compartment in the butt stock for two five round magazines. With the SV-99, at a hundred meters, a skilled shooter can consistently put all rounds in a half inch circle. This is a specialist weapon, most likely used by commandos. But any trained sniper can quickly adapt to using it. And snipers like not being heard.


    Calibers: .22LR (5.6mm rimfire)
    Operation: straight pull bolt action
    Barrel: 350 mm
    Weight: 3.75 kg empty, w/o scope
    Length: 1000 mm
    Feed Mechanism: 5 or 10 round detachable box magazine
    The SV-99 is a special purpose police sniper rifle for short-range (up to about 100 meters) encounters. It is intended for actions like the taking of the lights, the guarding dogs, or precision and silent anti-personnel work. The .22LR cartridge offers low noise, low probability of ricochets, and good lethality - of cause, when fired into the lethal area of the body. The SV-99 is based on the BI-7 biathlon sporting rifle, and has the same very fast toggle-locking, straight pull bolt action, in which the bolt handle simply swings back and forward to reload and cock the rifle. SV-99 features a wooden two part stock with detachable skeletonized shoulder stock, which could be removed fro compact storage or replaced by pistol grip for operation in confined places. The buttstock has an adjustable buttplate and a cheek rest; the bottom ob the buttstock has compartments for spare magazines. Forend features a rail with integral folding bipods. SV-99 has no open sights; instead, it has a dovetailed mounting points on the receiver, which can accept quick-detachable scope mounts. Muzzle is threaded for sound suppressor.
    With match grade ammunition SV-99 produces 1MOA 10-shot groups at 100 meters. SV-99 is now being manufactured at IZHMASH arms factory.

    This new rifle in caliber .22 LR has a compact envelope: exactly 1,000 mm long. The weapon has been designed and made by the IZHMASH Joint Stock Company to the technical requirements of SPETSNAZ - Russia's special force.
    From the point of view of its construction, SV-99 has a few interesting and unique features.
    First of all, the caliber. There is a joke among Russian arms designers: those who are used to developing "serious" assault or large-caliber sniper rifles, they mockingly call the .22LR weapons nothing but "fly killers", which means, this caliber is treated like something unacceptable for a combat weapon. Of course, this is only a joke.
    In fact, my recent research on sniper rifles developed by various companies around the globe reveals that the "sharps" industry has a strong tendency towards larger calibers: .338 Lapua Magnum, 12.7 mm and even 20 mm. SV-99 is probably the only true sniper rifle with the bore's diameter of 5.6 mm only. I would mislead readers if I'd say that sniper rifles in .22LR has never been in practice. I was told by Vietnam veterans that Viet Cong fighters used old TOZ 5.6 mm plinkers as weapons of close combat and sniper rifles successfully deployed in towns. Similar reports I had from the snipers who took part in the actions in Chechnya: Standard hunting .22LR "Sobol" rifles were used in the "snipers' war" in Grozniy. Smart guys, they used plastic bottles with tiny holes in the bottom and attached to rifle's muzzle as silencers! They said, such rifles were compact, accurate at close ranges. Fired from internal premises (a room, a hideout, etc.) small-caliber rifles produced very low sound blast that could hardly be heard at a distance of over 100 meters. Their "quietness" and accuracy was the important factor that made "fly killers" so effective as an anti-personnel weapon. I remember, one sniper was saying: - If a target is closer than 100 meters, You don't have to defeat a ballistic jacket. An exposed neck, face or head is just enough! And the gun is so "quiet"...
    So, I was not entirely surprised when I heard a word from one of my friends in the R&D center that IZHMASH was working on a new small-caliber sniper rifle. <table align="right" border="1" width="297"> <tbody><tr> <td width="100%"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td width="100%">[​IMG]</td> </tr> <tr> <th bgcolor="#000080" width="100%"> Fire tests of SV-99.</th> </tr> </tbody></table> </td> </tr> </tbody></table>
    A few days ago I was able to thoroughly examine the SV-99 rifle.
    Locking of the straight-pull bolt of the crank-shaft type is achieved by a lever arrangement that retains the bolt in locking position by the dead point of the traction link of the cocking lever. Once the bolt is in battery, it cannot be unlocked without applying a side shoulder of the cocking lever. This mechanism is derived from the construction of the winter Biathlon rifle, also devised by the IZHMASH Joint Stock company. SV-99 has a detachable buttstock which, if required by a tactical situation, can be replaced by a pistol grip. Stock is made from laminated plywood. A knob located on the rear left side of the barrel and receiver assembly serves to release the stock and attach the grip. This shorter envelope is handy in a combat at close ranges.
    The safety lever is located at the front part of the trigger guard. Once the safety is in its rearmost position, the rifle is deactivated by blocking both action and trigger. To bring the rifle into firing order, push safety forward.
    The rifle is magazine fed. The plastic detachable box-type magazine accommodates 5 rounds. The rifle's magazine port can accept 8-round and 10-round magazines. There are two 5-round extra magazines inside a special niche located inside the lower portion of the buttstock. The niche has a plastic hinged cover which prevents magazines from unwanted dust and debris. The buttstock has a fully adjustable cheek and buttplate to ensure operator' s comfort at firing. A telescopic bipod attaches to a rail located inside the lower surface of the handguard. <table align="right" border="1" width="243"> <tbody><tr> <td width="100%"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td width="100%">[​IMG]</td> </tr> <tr> <th bgcolor="#000080" width="100%"> SV-99 semi-knocked down.</th> </tr> </tbody></table> </td> </tr> </tbody></table>
    The threaded muzzle end of the barrel can be equipped with a compact silencer.
    Ontop the receiver there is a dove-tail rail to accommodate practically any type of a telescope. SV-99 has no iron sights.
    The rifle can be knocked down in a few moments, thus making it very handy for transportation in a medium-sized bag or case. Its longest assembly - a barrel and receiver with handguard - is only 520 mm long.
    SV-99 comes complete with the following accessories:
    - 2 extra magazines;
    - telescopic bipod;
    - pistol grip;
    - silencer;
    - carrying sling;
    - cleaning kit including cleaning rod.





    http://izhevsk.club.guns.ru/eng/sv99.html


    WEAPONS OF THE WORLD: Snipers Want an Arsenal - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community
    sv99-l. sv99-lo.
  2. tacmotusn
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    tacmotusn Mosquito Sailor

    let's see, hmmmm ... I saw a pop bottle silencer the first time on "Magnum PI". I will not confirm or deny usage of an improvised pop bottle silencer on a ruger bull barrel t-512 or k-512. But, If memory serves me well I seem to remember seeing one or the other with a high height, B-Square scope mount (which allows use of open sights if silencer not installed) and a red dot aimpoint (high mount allows use of aimpoint clear sight of silencer), and all that was required for putting the pop bottle on barrel was removing one screw to take off front sight, and a small slit length ways at the threaded neck of the pop bottle to allow it to slip tightly over the end of the bull barrel. a couple of wraps of tape and it is ready. first shot makes its own hole. many subsequent shots ... and all are nearly silent. you could stand at the foot of the steps to an occupied residence in a trailer park, with people in the front room 10 feet away, fire 10 rounds into the ground and they wouldn't hear a thing. trust me.... would I lie? By the way, a local gator poacher in one of the Carolina's was so impressed with this demonstation that he immediately bought a bull barrel target ruger and all the goodies and supplied gator meat to the person who gave the demonstration for several years. damn I miss the Carolinas. Oh a note on the 22lr performance... this guy was killing big gators 8 - 10 - 12 foot long. usually 1 or 2 shots only according to him.
  3. Tango3
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    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    Like the guy who shot the frozen turkeys wrapped in several layers of denim at200 yards( full penetration!) I am begining to think the.22 is way underrated..


    and BONUS(!)I can actually afford to pile this stuff up in meaning full quantities and practice too!
  4. Tango3
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    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    Somebody elses' discussion thread: atrocious spelling and More points of view on the above:
    <table width="100%"><tbody><tr><td align="left">sniper rifle

    greenspun.com : LUSENET : MILDOT : One Thread </td><td align="right"> <!-- Search Google --> <form method="get" action="http://www.google.com/custom"> <input name="q" size="20" maxlength="255" value="" type="text"> <input name="SA" value="Google Search" type="submit"> <input name="client" value="pub-3254315046251404" type="hidden"> <input name="forid" value="1" type="hidden"> <input name="ie" value="ISO-8859-1" type="hidden"> <input name="oe" value="ISO-8859-1" type="hidden"> <input name="cof" value="GALT:#008000;GL:1;DIV:#336699;VLC:663399;AH:center;BGC:FFFFFF;LBGC:336699;ALC:0000FF;LC:0000FF;T:000000;GFNT:0000FF;GIMP:0000FF;FORID:1;" type="hidden"> <input name="hl" value="en" type="hidden"> </form> <!-- Search Google --> </td></tr></tbody></table> <hr> <table align="right"> <tbody><tr><td> <script type="text/javascript"><!-- google_ad_client = "pub-3254315046251404"; google_ad_width = 160; google_ad_height = 600; google_ad_format = "160x600_as"; google_ad_type = "text_image"; google_ad_channel =""; google_page_url = document.location; google_color_border = "FFFFFF"; google_color_bg = "FFFFFF"; google_color_link = "0000FF"; google_color_url = "000000"; google_color_text = "000000"; //--></script> <script type="text/javascript" src="http://pagead2.googlesyndication.com/pagead/show_ads.js"> </script>

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    Can a 22 cal. rifle be used as a sniper rile. I have been thing of useing a 22 as a sniper rifle and what rifle would be good for the job.

    -- john k (john1381@aol.com), November 05, 2002 ​
    Answers
    Sure one could snipe with a 22 under a few ideal conditions:no wind,proven accurate ammo(cci green tag), a well proven accurate weapon such as a cooper,and a damn good shot. Given the one who needs this info is not a muslem fanatic(they would much rather use airplanes to kill innocent people).The grammar of the questioner is piss poor.He is either a smart-ass forigner or a dumb- ass red-neck, such as my self. Any way at any geat distance the only weak spot on the body would be a zero degree hit in the eye socket. A sniper with a weapon that groups more than .25moa and at a range of greater than 150yds or a shakey hand is **** out of luck. The hardest part of the head is the area around the eyes and fore head. In my ignorant youth i knew that i was the best shot in the whole of our blessed U.S.Army. I came home for christmas and did some squrrel huntin and up came a unicorn(a one horned deer for you dumb-asses out there). I knew it was good as in the freezer,aimed for the left eye and hit him dead between the eyes.NO grey matter no hair an little blood to follow.Needless to say he ran like hell. Most animals have an unbeliveable will to survive.People are not common animals and i have seen persons with serious wounds live through the ordeal.A F.U.B.A.R.ed shot will get YOU caught and Jhonny will not be marching home. Go on and try it dummy,every day is a good day to die. Especally when your terrorist ass is raped in prison.Wake up America, let us never forget.

    -- william choate (wlchoate@aol.com), February 18, 2004. ​
    <hr width="300">
    I was just lookin up .22LR Ballistic Coefficient on the net and came across this site. First I want to address the whole debate over the 5.56x45mm NATO and .22 Rimfire. Technically, the 5.56 is a .223 Remington, thus making it a .22. However, it has a helluva lot more velocity and does tons more damage. We shoot our C7A1's at distances out to 600m. As most of you stated, the max range for a .22 Magnum is 300yds. So please, don't attempt to compare the two. From what I hear, you guys are not talking about a "Sniper Rifle". What are you going to be using this rifle for? There are essentially two different applications for tactical rifles.
    If you are a military rifleman... you are engaging badguys with guns. How close do you want to be to a guy with an AK when you start shooting at him? I know I want to be out the range of his weapon. 600- 800 7.62mm rounds a minute in your vicinity can really ruin your day. Combat Rule #1... distance is your friend.
    What if you are a police marksman? They shoot at ranges usually no longer than 200yds. However, you may be required to make a "one shot stop" from that range. Can a .22 Rimfire cause enough damage in the "T Zone" to make the baddie drop dead without nerve activity (we don't want his fingers tensing... depressing the trigger when the gun is at the back of a hostages head). I'm sure your agency doesn't like lawsuits filed against them because your weapon is not adequate.
    Yes, a highly customized .22 can fulfill the need for a sniper rifle in some circumstances. However, the window of opportunity for the use of one is very limited. Funds permitting, there is always something better.
    Oh, and do not make a decision depending on cost of ammo. Ammunition is relatively cheap compared to human life.

    -- Brad Kelsey (CF_18_Hornet_29@hotmail.com), February 13, 2004.
    <hr width="300">
    PS/ You will also find a very good refernce table on the reported exterior ballistics of the most .22cal and .22 mag rounds. The Eley from a performance standpoint in .22LR is outstanding. RWS takes top honors in the Magnum rounds with their 40gr FMJ & JSP with a MV of 2020 and 360lbs of energy and still traveling at 1430fps with 180ftlbs at 100 yds (but at almost 20.00 a box they might be a bit pricey. Try the REM Win Mag 40 JHP&PSP as an alternative. I'm out of hear. My new Odessy stock just arrived. ARE WE HAVING FUN YET???

    -- Michael S. Crampton (mscrampton@msn.com), January 16, 2004.
    <hr width="300">
    The .22 cal is a very credible round, AT CLOSE RANGE!! It has been used for years by the military in Bull barrel Rugers, Browning Hi- Standard and Olympics. Having taught pistol quals in Korea for the 7th Div pistol team and two tours in the Central Highlands I think I've seen a bit. The .308 is the weapon of choice by most seeking distance (Recommend the 700 bdl, bull barrel in macmillian stock and any one of a myriad of scopes). The ruger 10/22 converted to select fire also makes a credible close combat weapon with low recoil and recovery and at 600 rds + per minute..... I don't know anyone how could take 10 rds a second at 50 yds or less. But the .22 at distance 200 yds or more has far to many varibles to affect it's accuracy which is what you would need. The best shooters with the best equipment are looking at a 1" group at 200 yds in still air. Take a moment to look at the exterior ballistics of the .22 and you'll see what I mean. A great soure is www.gunsmoke.com/sccot/guns/1022/22ballistics.html. Nough said. Keep them tight, keep them hot, and keep them moving.

    -- Michael S. Crampton (mscrampton@msn.com), January 14, 2004. ​
    <hr width="300">
    Yes, the 22 can be used as a sniper rifle. I used my 22 semi for shooting deer in late october. 16 deer, 16 shots.. place them well and they will drop like rocks.

    -- Eric (atk@your-house.com), January 08, 2004. ​
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    I have a Ruger 10/22 with a thumbhoe stock and a match fluted stainless steel barrel. it is sub 1 MOA at 100 yards and out to 300 yards on a still day. I am a former Marine and a police sniper. The 22LR is a superb training round with great accuracy, however its killing power beyond 150 meters is lacking. A Remington 700 VS has a 500 to 600 meter killing range, and lets you run your butt to safley. A 22LR will get you killed. Still it is an enteresting question, Keep to shooting small game, thats where the 22LR shines :smile:

    -- (Cybersyl@yahoo.com), January 06, 2004. ​
    <hr width="300">
    Aguila manufactures a 60 gr .22cal round that has a muzzle velocity of just over 900 fps. The round is marketed as the Sub Sonic Sniper Round. At close range I wouldn't want to be standing in front of it.

    -- Robert Simpson (rsimpson@comdt.uscg.mil), December 30, 2003. ​
    <hr width="300">
    For all those that believe that the .22 is "just too small", ask vietnam vets, the NVA,VC, the Chechens, and the Russians, oh AND THE US GOVERNMENT...as all of these have used the .22 caliber as an sniping round with surprisingly good results.

    -- scott (scottwyatt22@yahoo.com), December 22, 2003. ​
    <hr width="300">
    just returning a question to lowelleches the scope i use is a weaver B4 . and as good is it is and as good as i am theres better scopes than it . wish i could afford one and a new 1022 magnum to put it on enjoy everyone merry christmas God bless America and all us Patriots. We are the reason America doesnt get invaded cause too many of us good ole boys are good ole shots God Bless

    -- scottie (ldempseybabs@ameritech.net), December 21, 2003. ​
    <hr width="300">
    I noticed someone said that they would not like to be in front of a Velocitor, or some other quick round. It depends, somewhat, on the distance. These "hyper" rounds have a low Ballistic Coefficient and slow down real quick. That makes them VERY easily affected by a puff of wind so they are not that accurate either.
    The fastest .22LR production round is the 30 grain Aguila Super Maximum with a MV of 1750 fps, a Ballistic Coefficient of 0.102 and a Muzzle Energy of 204 ft lbs.
    Sounds good huh? Well the 40 grain Eley HIGH VELOCITY SOLID has an MV of "only" 1312 fps and a Muzzle Energy of 153 ft lbs. It has a BC of 0.2 though, and the Eley overtakes the Aguila's energy at only 70 yards when they both have 120 ft lbs energy.
    At 250 yards the Aguila has 50 ft lbs of energy while the Eley still has a creditable 80 ft lbs and is also probably still going in the right direction. A steady 3 mph wind would deflect the Aguila by 12.6 inches, but the Eley only 6.6 inches.
    If I were going after some small animal, the Eley would be a better bet. "Hyper" doesn't mean "better".
    Interestingly, both bullets take around 0.63 seconds to get to 250 yards. Almost exactly the same time as the muzzle report, so there would be no warning.
    Robert

    -- Robert Windman (robert49@ziplip.com), December 11, 2003.
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    I am a gun owner, and a strong supporter of the 2nd ammendment. I feel that all of you talking about what caliber would be appropriate to kill somone is not helping our cause in the slightest. If one who were opposed to our right to own firearms saw this sight, it would only confirm their suspicion that we are a bunch of savage, gun toting, freaks. I would like the general public to refer to us gun owners as sportsmen, not rambo-wanabees. Not trying to upset anyone, just think we ought to use a little common sense in asking these questions. chris

    -- cdv (superswamperfrd@aol.com), November 28, 2003.
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    Just happened across this site and could not help but put my two cents in.I've been shooting and hunting every thing from small rodents with assorited .22 caliber rim fires in South Georgia to giant eland in Africa with a .375 HH Mag. over the course of forty five plus years and the .22 rimfire of any headstamp is no combat weapon. As for some of these good shooters[a one inch group with a .22 win mag]I would sometimes find that hard to do with my 14lb.220 swift with 36 power optics with a 10 mph cross wind.

    -- David Cason (lec@gnat.net), November 26, 2003. ​
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    Lets look at the term a little closer: "Sniper Rifle" -- N. a rifle used BY A SNIPER to propel projectiles at a target. -- The most important part of this term is "Sniper" with out it, it is just another "Rifle". So if the person using the "Rifle" does not possess all the qualities necessary to qualify as a "Sniper" then it is not a "Sniper Rifle"

    -- L-Dogg (L_D_O_G_G@yahoo.com), November 04, 2003. ​
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    here's my 2 cents. Anything that launches a projectile can be used for as a sniper weapon. A blow gun, a bow and arrow, an air pistol, an air rifle, a 22 pistol, a 22 rifle, a 9mm pistol, a 9mm carbine, a 223 pistol, a 223 rifle,........, a 50 cal rifle, a 105 mm cannon, and on and on and on. It basicaly boils down to fit the tool or weapon to the job at hand. A common belife among avid hunters is to hit your target, be it game animal or bad guys, with a projectile that has enough remaing energy to kill that target. Bullet energy peaks at the muzzle of a gun and drops as the bullet travels. You can look up bullet energy for almost any caliber bullet in a standard balistics chart. So to choose the right tool/weapon for the job you would have to balance all factors that come into play. A 22 is by far the quietest but really lacks terminal performance and bullet energy at more than 100 yrds. A 50 cal is way to loud and would disclose a hidden position at anything less than 300 yrds. So in conclusion determine the situation, the needs of that particular situation and then choose a tool/weapon that has the most potential for a terminal killing hit that still satisfies the other condtions required by that situation such as concealment, defeating armor, etc. No one gun can do everything, cause if there were such a gun everyone would have it and no others would exist. To answer the original question: yes a 22 could be used as a sniper rifle, if the situation calls for it, but it can NOT be used as a sniper rifle for every situation that arises. Take care all, be safe and execise and protected our precious 2nd amendment every chance you get!

    -- Gabe Palmer (syrpalmer@yahoo.com), November 04, 2003. ​
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    ONLY ONE ROUND IS NEEDED IF PLACED RIGHT BUT AT RANGE ITS HARD TO BEAT A REMINGTON 7MM MAGNUM EVEN THOUGH THE MILITARY DOESNT USE IT EITHER............

    -- (FOOBAR@AOL.COM), October 06, 2003. ​
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    Well I have had a chance to read all the articles on this web sight. I to beleve that a 22.caliber would be effective in certain instances. However accurate, the 22.rimfire has it's place,close range. By close range i mean 100 yards and under. I too have killed every thing from tree rats,to white tail deer with the little cartridge. I have shot the cci velocitor through 2 inch thick pine boards at 50 yards too. The caliber does have the ability to kill a human very easy so long as your shot is placed right, in the head or eye if possible. As a sniper rifle for close range the 22. to me is fine enough to get the job done,so long as I got time to aim accuratly. For strieght up combat no way i would carry a 22. rimfire. To many things could go wrong and i would rather be safe than sorry. I think i'll stick with my 7.62-39 for that. However i would never turn loose of any of my 308. caliber rifles. At long range you can't go wrong with the 308.

    -- Travis C. Thacker (travis_thacker5@eku.edu), September 06, 2003. ​
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    Yes, and no. A .22 could be used as a sniper rifle (as could anything that spits out a projectile...since the sniper makes the rifle). The key issue in the case of using a .22 caliber rifle in a sniper situation is the issue of target proximity in order to allow for effective fire. In order for fire to be considered effective it must consist of two things. One, one shot one kill. Two, post-fire repositioning. The .22 caliber rifle can, in the hands of an expert marksman, achieve the first. Bear in mind here the fact that the amount of powder behind that little bullet is what’s going to give you greater velocity at greater distance, which translates to, in the case of the .22, killing potential (i.e. the more powder you got, the faster it flies, the deeper it goes, the more it tears up or mushrooms out). The second aspect of effective fire however is left wanting when it comes to the .22 caliber rifle. The .22 caliber bullet is cursed by it’s ‘shortness’. The wind likes to blow it around, and as it slows down it likes to tumble through the air no matter how much twist you give it on the way out of the barrel. Basically, the .22 caliber bullet (assuming no more powder than can be packed into a .22 MAG cartridge casing) is only good out to around 250 yards. The term ‘post-fire repositioning’ is an egotistic way of saying ‘run for your life’. This means that you, the ‘sniper’, have a maximum of about 20 seconds (at 250 yards) between you and a hand-to- hand combat situation. Now, I don’t mean to brag (I’m going to anyways), but I have a Marlin model 25MN (.22 MAG) and I’ll go out to the range and keep the holes inside of an inch circle at 225 yards. However, in combat hitting a target is only the beginning of your problems...it’s getting back to base alive that’s the issue. Point and case, the target will be just as dead after there’s a .22 bullet through it’s heart as it will with it’s body severed by a .308. However, you’d be committing suicide shooting at mid range in the field where your target’s comrades shoot back.

    -- Karl Busse (morphius-0@juno.com), September 01, 2003. ​
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    You could cause alot of hell with a .22 rifle. I could see a .22 w/suppressor, harassing troops all night and creating many live casualties putting a heavy burden on the enemy. As far as taking out key personnel, one-shot-one-kill, I wouldn't stake the mission on it.

    -- John (deweyhaze@juno.com), August 23, 2003. ​
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    the 5.56X45 is a .22 caliber round...........check it out. the .22LR, because it is so small, is the most deadliest out there. i would go into combat with a .22LR

    -- greenbeanie (greenbeanie10@yahoo.com), August 14, 2003. ​
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    i have a ruger 1022 with a folding stock and weaver scope . i have been shooting a 1022 for over 20 some odd years,i was raised by soldiers and sherrifs and can out shoot anyone i know and most ive never met.i am not only gifted as a shooter but am 34 yrs old and have been shooting since i was 8 regularly. my 1022 is my favorite weapon [well next to my springfield 1911a1] [old faithful]i have had this particular weapon for about 10 yrs and have put over 30,000 rounds through it and it just keeps getting better . just last week at 150 yrds i was hitting a 6 inch steel squar target 10 out of 10 every time over and over again. i let one of my buddies shoot it a couple weeks ago and he still cant belive he hit 3 quarters at 70 yrds.3 quarters 3 shots 3 bullseyes.and he never shot it before .this is a deadly accurate weapon. and for those of you who think you cant snipe with it when i get you in my cross hairs ill shoot the 308 out of you hand first just so youll know it was me and my 1022 . at less than 100 yrds the barrell on the 308 is probably big enough to get a 22 round into causing your rifle to explode if thats not sniping nothing is . our boys in blue are killing mother ****ers in caves rite now with surpressed 22s .they say on the side of the box "caution dangerous for 1.5 miles for a reason. [sorry had to use the ole ladies e mail]

    -- scottie (ldempseybabs@ameritech.net), August 09, 2003. ​
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    The .17 HMR is accurate for quite some distance, but the 17 grain bullet is so light even the slightest wind can push it around. Without wind you can get 1 inch groups at 100 yards, but despite its extremly light bullet, at 100 yards it has very little penitration compared to other calibers.

    -- Nick G. (ng835@yahoo.com), August 04, 2003. ​
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    Yes, a 22 can be used as a sniper rifle if you are sniping small game. For peaople you will need a bigger gun. As for buying a 22, I would buy a BOL-action, as they are more accurate. An even better cal. is the .17hmr. It is smaller than a 22 but it shoots faster and is more accurate. It omly drops 2 inches at 200 yards. Try a Savage bolt- action.

    -- steve erdley (serdley@aol.com), July 23, 2003. ​
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    How about one of you .308 fans stand down the range and let me pop a single .22 bullet between the eyes. I promise it will ruin anyone day. The .22 comes in many different bullet weights, and ive seen a few .22lr bullets come with a full 60 grains, which is very close to the weight of the average .223. Also, it is the bullets design that maes the difference. A .22 hollow point will kill much faster than a .223 green tip (armor peircing) bullet fired from any gun. The .22 is a very underrated, and has much more killing power than most people could imagine.

    -- Nick G. (ng835@yahoo.com), July 17, 2003.
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    Take a look at http://club.guns.ru/eng/sv99.html
    There is a nice example of a .22 caliber sniper rifle.

    -- Bruno Galvão (enqt2003@yahoo.com.br), July 16, 2003.
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    P.S. someone please make Mr. Edward Jones attend a ballistics class, or at least make him read the paragraph above. A .223 is a type of .22! An M16 is a 5.56mm, OR .223. And a .223 is a type of .22, a .22 is a .220. So the military DOES use .22 family rifles for combat. I tell my Marines, "collect you intellegence, before you show people your intellegence." Well, I am going to run now, you have abit of searching to do,...try the lost and found. KophJager

    -- KophJager (jager0369@aol.com), July 12, 2003. ​
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    Yes, Mr. John Vancil is correct about what type of terrain you shoot in can determine on the round size. And yes Mr. Vancil, the terrain was brought up in the "where" part of my statement. The Marine Corps will never go to a straight up .22 for a sniper's weapon due to stopping power, mass ammo supplies of match 7.62mm, all of the 7.62 mm sniper rifles we have already built, Remington rifle contracts, not to include a whole new ballistic table for the 10x Unertl scopes. If it isn't broke, don't fix it until it is broke! Have you ever seen a man in real life or on actual footage shot with a M16-2? They are a type of ".22", a .223! They don't always drop on the first shot...second, or third. They don't always drop with a 7.62 (which is a .311, not a .308) but more 95% of the time they do.And remember, if .22 ever that great for long distance sniping, all services would use them as there standard sniper's rifle. Not just the air force (just kidding you fly guys!)
    I shot a old Remington bolt action .22 just for kicks, and I love that thing. The bottom line is just have fun! Don't let anyone nitt- pick your rifle apart. It is made for killing, all of them are. KophJager

    -- KophJager (jager0369@aol.com), July 12, 2003.
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    I would say yes and no on using the .22 as a sniper weapon. First one thing nobody has mentioned here is terrain. There's really no sense at all in a .50 sniper rifle in an area where max shot range is less than 300m. All that would do is give the position away. A .22 cal I belive would be most effective in an urban or thickly wooded area. Simply put it IS quieter than anything else and despite what some might say a .22 between the eyes will ruin someone's day. Period. End of story. Thats my little tirade on that. As far as a good .22 I'd have to say my pick would be a CZ 452 ZKM (get the Lux), mine has sights out to 300m (what it would do at that range is another matter)Anyway happy shooting all!

    -- Jon Vancil (jon_vancil@yahoo.com), July 07, 2003. ​
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    If you planning on attempting a 300 yard shot with your 22, then i highly recommend to use the velocitators or some form of high super high velocity, because wind factor you going to be facing too... But I have seen it done more than once and quite affectively too by other shooters with differnt 22 rifles setup real nice, also depends on shooter as well as the equipment too...just some pointers...But GOOD LUCK ANYWAYS!!!!!!!!!!!

    -- n8xfj (n8xfj@charter.net), July 06, 2003. ​
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    How about I just punch all you girls in the face that are playing with your dollies? Guns are for kids who were beat up too much in school and have developed an inferiority complex. So if I see any of us cousin-marrying morons I'll just kick your teeth down your throat.

    -- Stephen (s&sfirearms@yahoo.com), July 02, 2003. ​
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    I have a Marlin Model 60 which fires at 1/4 MOA with CCI Mini Mag Standard Velocity rounds. I want to see what my .22 can do at 300 yards so I am wondering if I should use the standard velocity rounds because of the accuracy or use CCI's Stinger HV rounds, which fire at 1/2 MOA from my rifle, so the round have less time to be pushed off target .

    -- jared (lovtoad@aol.com), June 28, 2003. ​
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    I guess so, look at the difference in weapons...I have 308's here that 5 out of 5 shots you can cover the hole with a nickel at a 100 yards. It cuts the same hole with no problem..I shoot 500-1000 meters all the time quite affective with them too...

    -- (n8xfj@charter.net), June 18, 2003. ​
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    My Browning 308 will take on anybody who wants to go against me with a little 10/22. We'll see who comes out the better shot

    -- Clay (wati69@watavaley.co,), June 12, 2003. ​
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    There is no doubt in my mind that a .22 rifle can be used as a decent sniper rifle. I would prefer a 7.62 NM M1A with a scope under normal conditions. Shot placement is the most important issue when shooting. The next thing is tactics. One tactic I developed in Nam as a sniper was to give the bullet time to work. In other words I would shoot, hit the target and then wait a few minutes so the effects of the bullets would be felt. I own a Ruger 1022 and I've tested it to the point that I know out to about 300 yards a guy can do head shots all day long. If you couple accurate shots with good tactics and pre- planning, you'll be amazed how smooth things can go. One other thing... If you want to be more effective think about a decent .22 magnum rifle as a sniper rifle. They have a little more power and a little heavier bullet.

    -- C. Dodd (Dodd173@insightbb.com), June 06, 2003. ​
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    http://www.savagearms.com/rimfire/mark11_series/mark11fv.htm Ones who are interested in a nice bolt action 22 and very highly accurate click this link and check it out. This is what i have and have won several shooting matches first place with it already! I also failed to mention that 22's are the cheapest to shoot as well. you can buy 500 rnd bricks from walmart anywhere from $7-$10.. When I catch them on sale, I buy several bricks at a time because I shoot alot every chance i get.I mentioned ealier in my other thread that it was the 64 fv but it is the mark2 fv series, sorry about that for listing it incorrectly. No hard feelings to anyone nothing pointing to anyone!!!!!! Happy Shooting to EVERYONE!!!!!!!

    -- steve (n8xfj@charter.net), May 19, 2003. ​
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    22's by all means can be used as a sniper rifle but only at close range of a 100 yards or less for the best affectivness! I have a jiffed up ruger 10/22 and a savage mark2 fv, rite out of the box holds a 1/2" group at almost 50 yards..I snipe coyotes at 70 yards with my 22 no problem.It is as they say, {One Shot One Kill} and it is definatley all in where you place the shot!! I used to be a sniper and most of my oldest family members that has retired years ago from service is retired snipers.. I also have several 308 sniper rifles and you be surprised what distances with the rite ammo rifle and optics and of course the shooter, what you can do with one and at super distances..I shoot anywhere fromm 500-1000meters all the time with my 308 affectively! But back to the 22's, most people underestimate that caliber very much so. Try some of the new hyperv ammo that travels 1750 fps for the 22..Only thing I can say is,I would not want to be on the receiving end of it!! A 22 will kill a man or any other target just as dead and just as fast as any other caliber with less mess to clean up..And a good suppressor on one, hooooyyyaaa look out!!!!

    -- Steve (n8xfj@charter.net), May 19, 2003. ​
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    whats the best .22 round to shoot?

    -- (david101805@aol.com), May 05, 2003. ​
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    If you look at the definition of sniping then ANY weapon can be used as a sniper's weapon. Some people do like .22 caliber rifles. I agree, it does depend on what you are shooting. BUT, also where, why, and what kind of damage you are hoping to give. It is simple, it all comes down to terminal ballistics! What kind of damage you want to make INSIDE of the target. In some U.S. military communities we use .223 rounds for sniping (that's a 5.56 mm for you rocket engineers out there.) That is the bottom line. If you are really looking for hunting light game birds, it is fine. Large game or man, it is okay depending on you loads, the projectile tip of the bullet, and where you aim. I like a large size round to drop a person. I have had to use three 5.56 mm rounds to drop a man before. Not to mention the M40A3's M118 173 grain or 175 grain rounds at a thousand yards sometimes have a hard time pushing through the target depending on the thickness. "one shot, one kill!" KophJager (Head-Hunter) P.S.-The M4 is junk. I have broke three of them.

    -- KophJager (jager0369@aol.com), April 28, 2003. ​
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    P.S. If you are looking to snipe a person DON'T, cause if you need to ask this question to other people you obviously don't have enough knowlege to even make the attempt. Not trying to be mean just the way I see it.

    -- Matt (ddtotonka@yahoo.com), April 17, 2003.
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    I also have some money burning a hole in my pocket and want to set up a sniper rig. I am not sure what you are planing on sniping but I really want to sock it to some crows that usually flock 250 yards across the road from my house in a group of pines. That will not happen with a .22 unless I stalk up close. But the problem does exist that any larger caliber will cost plenty of cash if I want to shoot it like a .22. 7.62 may be a good choice otherwise.....the ammo is cheap (under $.09 per round) and it has plenty of power to reach out and touch someone (if that's what you are looking for) The "nessisary" caliber of a rifle is proportional to what you are killing, how far you are killing it from, and how well you shoot. I have to agree with Jim you could easily kill a man within 100 yards with a .22 I also have to agree with John and Edward that if you are serious about sniping then a .22 won't cut the mustard.
    Don't get me wrong about .22s it is my favorite gun in the world. I have a ruger 10/22 and I can drive tacks with it and it's so cheap to shoot(I have very likely put about 10,000+ rounds through it) If you want to get away cheaply look into 7.62x39mm if you want something with sheer power look to a 7mm WSM.

    -- Matt Mohn, WI (ddtotonka@yahoo.com), April 17, 2003.
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    Don't listen to Jim craig about going into battle with a .22. There is a reason why the military uses 5.56 mm ammunition rather than .22. Jim Craig, if the united states issued .22s even to the best sharp shooters rather than M-16A2s the United States' infantry would be inferior to Canada's. So if you want to go to battle with a .22 by all means do so. I'll just go to battle with a colt M4 or an SR-25 and kick your ass before you even see where I am. P.S. No offense Jim.

    -- Edawrd Jones (Gookkiller@aol.com), April 08, 2003. ​
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    Let me answer your question with a question. Could I be a sniper with a red rider BB gun. I dont have much shooting experience aside from shooting a few .22s but im pretty sure that if you want to hit something from long ranges, like any sniper, you will need something more than a .22 caliber rifle. Nothing against .22s but its clear that it was not designed to be a sniper cartridge

    -- John Davis (Fillup287@aol.com), April 08, 2003. ​
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    I love .22 Rifles. They are my Fav. I cant hit anything with a 22 hand gun either. But I love my Rifle. I have a savage sporter .22.Its old but it still shoots pretty straight. If anyone can tell me what to look for in a good .22 That would really be helpful

    -- Phil A Carso (dkm4ever@yahoo.com), April 02, 2003. ​
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    Howdy Folks, In regard to the .22 cal rifle being used as a sniper rifle; I saw a guy kiled with a .22 ruger hand gun one time. Nothing to it. He just fell over dead. More people are killed with .22 each year in America than any other caliber. It is my understanding that the chinese border guards cary Ruger 10/22's.
    The only rifles I shot prior to joining the Marine Corps were .22's. I made the first opposed landing in Viet Nam with the 1st Marine Brigade out of Hawaii. I was carrying an M14. The first time I shot an M14, I broke the range record. I'm not braging, just pointing out that I shot thousands of .22 rounds prior to joining the Marines. I shot squirels, fish, grashoppers, bottles, bottle caps, rocks, hickory nuts, most anything one could think of, I shot. I learned how to shoot with a couple of .22 rifles. One was a pump action Remington, and the other was my Dad's Browning automatic.
    If I were going back into combat today (2003), I would carry my Ruger 10/22. Now, this 10/22 is not an off the shelf model. There is not much still on the rifle that is original. But, I have to tell you, the off the shelf model is pretty cool. With my jazzed up one, I can hit a silver dollar at 100 yards (every time). At 50 yards, I can hit a dime (every time). At 25 yards they all go into the same hole (every time). With a good suppresor, one can do some pretty cool shooting in a combat situation.
    Now, I know a lot of guys like the big guns. That's Okay. I see them at the range several times every month. I just sit down for a few minutes, and soon they are out of ammo. They can't afford to shoot their guns because of the cost of the ammo. Now, me, that is a different story; I can buy a brick (500 rounds) of .22 ammo at Wal Mart for under $10.00. I can carry a thousand rounds of ammo into combat on my person. I am one of those guys who subscribes to the position of "bullet placement." If you can shoot, you can knock off any man on the planet with one round from a good .22. Get one and practice. They are fun to shoot, cheap to shoot, and one day, you may find that a good .22 might be the gun to carry into combat to save your country.
    Now, after having said this. There are a lot of .22 rifles and handguns out there. I can't hit anything with a hand gun. I admire people who can. I am a .22 rifle nut. Buy the best .22 you can aford. Jazz up a Ruger 10/22, or get one from the guys out there who build up these Rugers to shoot really well. Get a Kimber, Cooper, Anchultz. They are expensive. But, man, they will shoot.
    When I was a kid shooting squirels, sometimes I would miss, and I just could not beleive it. I didn't find out until years later, that the ammo one uses in his rifle makes a big difference in how it shoots. A rifle/hand gun will like a particular brand of ammo (and sometimes manufacture's lot numbers) over others. When you get your .22, try every ammo you can find until you find what shoots best in your gun. Shoot off a sand bag, or some kind of stable rest, so you can find how well it shoots. Don't shoot 3 rounds like I hear a lot of guys say they shoot, as anybody can shoot 3 rounds close together. Shoot 5 rounds. When you get a really small group with 5 rounds, you know you have found the ammo for your gun.
    Shoot for fun. Get good at it. A good .22 will not let you down when the going gets tough.
    If you want to talk to a .22 nut. I'm your guy. I love 'em.
    Good luck.
    Jim

    -- Jim Craig (CraigJim@msn.com), March 08, 2003.
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    The .22 is an awsome weapon in the hands of a skilled craftsman...problem is, ain't that many of'em left, lots of wannabes but damned few craftsman.....

    -- (slalderman@earthlink.net), February 01, 2003. ​
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    preferred sniper weapon in south america i have been told. good source who performed clandestine acts during contra era. during y2k i was belittled for this information, claims that it wasn't enough gun. think about it, it has killed everything on this continent at least once, and if u had an ak and i wanted it i could snipe you, use your ak til the ammo ran out and then pick up my light weight ....22 and go on with life. it is not a distance gun, but i have heard alot of big men claim that a .308 is not big enough to knock down the southern white tail. they claim they have to trail the game after they shoot it. they say they need more gun! all i can say and i'm not a marksman by any means is "shot placement, shot placement, shot placement!!!" daddy used to get on to us boys for anything but a head or neck shot on a deer,and a squirrel or rabbit better be a head shot. My uncle is a vietnam vet, he agrees.

    -- dirk "dirtbag"holland (dctholla@bellsouth.net), December 27, 2002. ​
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    LMMFAO @ Rick

    -- Handout (fredjarvin@hotmail.com), December 15, 2002. ​
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    yes, .22s can be and have been used as sniper rifles. the israelis use integrally suppressed 10-22s, and the russkies developed a sweet little take-down system called the sv-99. the military can use it in MOUT situations where a quiet (sub-sonic match-grade .22s are common), compact, relatively light rifle with more ammo than the use of a .308 would accomodate is desirable for soft targets out to about 100 yards. further, the .22 would allow the shooter to carry a second long arm to supplement the spotters rifle and their pistols for team security. granted, the team would be exposing themselves to enemies that were perhaps closer than desirable (or at least closer than what might be the case with longer range guns), they would be able to rely on the inherent quietness of the gun and their fieldcraft skills to evade undesirables. police could use .22s to quiet dogs, take out street lamps, tires etc., and maybe confront different facets of a given situation with as little noise as possible.

    -- tom pepper (herrrepp@aol.com), December 08, 2002. ​
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    Quick, there's an NVA squirrel battalion commander. GET'EM!!!!

    -- Rick Powell (rpowell75@hotmail.com), December 04, 2002. ​
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    Not unless you're planning on sniping squirrels.

    -- Handout (fredjarvin@yahoo.com), December 02, 2002. ​
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    Being a light round the .22 main downfall is windage. It can get the range but being such light round it loses the velocity needed to make a first round fatil wound, in the sniper world can be imperative to the job. But as far as accuracy the .22 can hold its own to a certain point. Some of the most well known .22 cal. rifles are the legendary Marlins and the Kimber .22 rifles are are also great for accuracy and alittle more stylish that=n the Marlins if thats your style. Have fun shopping

    -- A.J. (longerange@swap.net), November 18, 2002.
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