How about trying your calculations again with 6 cent per KWH and 3.75 a gallon gas? Anyway, we are Americans, we don't care about facts anyway. If it works ... it works. It doesn't have to make cents, actual or fiscal.
Is this a real place? The cheapest electricity is in ND with $0.11 per kWh. I don't know about localities. You are talking about some place with Western US gasoline prices yet half of North Dakota's electricity prices? Very atypical. They tend to go up together. In the US, a place with expensive gas tends to have even more expensive electricity, proportionally. A blue state with more expensive gas and electricity also tends to have higher solar system costs. And there are some red states that are unusually expensive too.
Grid plus existing solar array and net metering and one can push just over 50 percent of usage back on the grid .. well there you are. I know, you hate EVs. I do too, but when it comes down to dollars and cents, there are circumstances where it's the cheapest option for one's use. So, in this case OP4 is right, and we are wrong. Unlike me, I don't think that OP4 is going to buy a vehicle that is impractical for half of his intended use. Do I need a Prado? Half the time no, I could get away a coupe or a sedan and have triple the fuel economy. But I have a Prado for the other half the time where a coupe would be on the edge of being stupid to use. Also if we have a popup protest, the Prado has full skid plates and 9 inches of ground clearance makes it easier to go over stuff and not get stuck when the going gets bumpy and slick.
That means that you are not consuming half of what you paid (dearly) for and are paying interest on. And the power company tends to sell you back electricity at a DISCOUNT The average American household consumes 30 kWh a day. Recharging only one EV after an average American daily drive (37 miles) is another 12 kWh a day. And right there is 15,000 kWh-a-year solar system with nothing to spare. Which is what most solar cost-benefit calculations are with, the least expensive system. And don't forget that you also need an expensive battery for your solar system to store energy to charge your EV at night. To give half of it back to the grid, you would need a more expensive 22,500 kWh-a-year system. Or cut your consumption in half. And there are so many big extra hidden costs with solar that I could list that are not included in the price calculation. However, like with EVs, it is possible that they may become more cost-effective in the future. I don't hate EVs. I already calculated that they are not economical for the average American at this time. I don't know what his unusual personal circumstances are, but daily driving with an EV is a (long-term) money loser compared to the alternative. People can be tricked easily by short-termism, concentrated benefit vs diffuse cost. Hauling well above the tow rating is also reckless, shortens the vehicle's lifespan, which is already short. EVs don't yet make sense for the average person as well as for the larger society/political economy. Even if gas prices are high. Because then electricity prices will be high too. Even keeping national average electricity prices steady (which is unrealistic because they go up as gas prices go up), I calculate that national average gas prices would have to be at least $4/gallon (and probably even more than that), for several years for EVs to be more cost-effective than hybrids. Which has not happened in this century nor the last, not even close. Only for months in 2022 and 2008. Currently it's a tossup for vehicles with mpg well in their 30s, and there are several with similar or better tow ratings: https://www.reddit.com/r/whatcarsho...e_there_any_brand_new_30mpg_cars_with_2k_lbs/ Currently vehicles with mpg in their 20s or lower are less cost-effective than EVs, unless they have special capabilities/features that are judged by the consumer to be worth the extra cost. Like pickup trucks, that are actually meant for towing things. Compared to a hybrid, I can only see EVs being cost-effective in a long-term high-gas-price, high-electricity-price scenario, with a relatively inexpensive and sufficient home solar system. Big if. Again, too many variables there, with all costs considered (which are rarely considered in solar cost-benefit analyses). Or in some scenario where there is zero fuel available or a Mad Max scenario, and in both cases you will have much more serious problems than driving! I understand, I inherited old guzzlers and diesels from a collector, including early 80s Land Cruisers! Thankfully I do not need to drive myself much with them, maybe a few days a week for several miles. If I had to drive a normal amount, then I would use something else. Very uneconomical to drive, but very simple reliable machines, minimal or no electronics. Fuel, stabiliser and parts stockpiled, can be maintained and fixed at home indefinitely. Will not last as long as an EV with a home solar system in a long-term zero-fuel scenario. But do not require several hours to charge and can go a lot farther than 70 miles if needed!
Maria739 Said: .... I already calculated that they are not economical for the average American at this time. I don't know what his unusual personal circumstances are, but daily driving with an EV is a (long-term) money loser compared to the alternative. .... And there is the issue. I can guarantee you that just about everyone on this board is not the average American. For OP4 he is getting about 3-4 miles per KW (granted not when pulling equipment) so with no solar he's paying about 4-5 cents per mile. And if he can send back 50 percent of what he uses via solar net metering .. he's down at 2-3 cents per mile. Hell of a deal for him. He let someone else take the depreciation hit on the vehicle , hell he even got one with a fresh battery replacement so he's good for 10 years or more. So not a money loser. But yes, if you buy brand new gas vs EV. EV owners are going to get hosed. But there are very few here that would do that ... because we are frugal. We aren't here to save the planet via virtual signaling. Hell, some of us are on wells/springs/cisterns and don't have indoor toilets. EV is not only for a niche market. It could be widely adopted but it's going to be only viable in the big cities where folks own a home and can install their own garage charging station. It even makes sense in the hinterlands if you have a large enough solar array and your trips are modest. I agree Hybrids make the most sense, I think his wife's vehicle is a hybrid. I'd bet you that he has a 1970s or 80s truck that with a quart of brake fluid and a can of starting fluid would make the run to town and possibly back. But you cannot say that EVs aren't economical because each scenario is different. Anyway, I think we've beat this data not equal information thing to death. #ILiveLifeAtTenMilesPerGallon!
How is the leafs life span short? Mine is well out side what you think their life should be and I beat the hell out of my leaf. When the leaf first came out I had memorized all the relevant specifications, so I could make fun of it and talk trash. I used to think exactly like you did that the batteries wouldn't last, the original run of batteries were pretty bad but they fixed that after the first few thousand cars. There was virtually no DC fast charging in 2011, so if those original batteries were made today and used in cars with fast chargers they would be almost unusable by today's standards. I found a power bill from 25 years ago. Electricity prices have barely gone up. Gas prices 25 years ago were under a dollar a gallon everywhere that doesn't suck. What's with 1,500kwh per year? That ain't shit. I make more than that most months. What are you going on about sending half of the solar power one generates back to the grid and having to double the size? The leaf isn't my only vehicle. Not going more than 70 miles is irrelevant. I bought the thing knowing it was a one trick pony I knew precisely what it's limitations and weaknesses were years prior to buying it.
Over the past 20 years, US average gas prices doubled and electricity prices doubled. us average gas price 2000 - Google Search us average gas price since 2020 - Google Search us average electricity price since 2000 - Google Search California gas prices doubled and electricity prices tripled. CA has by far the most EVs per capita california gas price since 2000 - Google Search california electricity price since 2000 - Google Search EVs are a money loser for the average person, even where gas prices are highest, because then electricity prices will be even higher. The average person also cannot seem to afford solar. Electricity prices only stay low partly if people do not use EVs, ironically. As I said, EVs and hybrids currently cost about the same to drive per day at $3.16/gallon and $0.1747/kWh, which are the current averages for the US. And on the West Coast, electricity prices are double that and gas prices are "only" 50% more. Hybrids have a longer life expectancy without major repairs/replacements than EVs do, so hybrids make more sense for the average person for basic driving. At the current gas prices (21st century average), a regular ICE car with mpg in the 30s still generally makes more sense than an EV because of its longer expected lifespan without major replacements or repairs. National average gas price (assuming that current electricity prices held steady, which would not happen, electricity prices would increase rapidly as well) would have to be above $4/gallon for several years for EVs to start making some sense if you don't mind the very limited range and other features that are lacking. National prices were that high only for a few months in 2022 and 2008. The severe and rapid depreciation of EVs shows that the market does not expect them to last long. The market knows that Honda Civics last longer. Yes, there are some African blacks that live to be 100 even though life expectancy is 60. 15,000 kWh, not 1,500. Read again: "The average American household consumes 30 kWh a day. Recharging only one EV after an average American daily drive (37 miles) is another 12 kWh a day. And right there is 15,000 kWh-a-year solar system with nothing to spare..." And don't forget that you also need an expensive battery [costs as much as a few used EVs on Carfax] for your solar system to store energy to charge your EV at night without paying the power company. To sell half of your power (net) back to the grid with an EV charging in your garage every night, which is merely the hypothetical example that another poster used, the average household would require a larger more expensive system, 22,500 kWh or 30,000 kWh, depending on whether you want to sell back half of what you consume or half of what you generate. And even then I don't know if it's worth it, depending on your interest payments and whether the power company sells electricity back to you at a discount. That's VERY relevant. Most Americans like road trips. Rural Americans need to drive longer distances. 70 miles round trip is a joke, barely crosses the LA basin, which we do a few times per year. In parts of rural California or the Western US there are no big stores for that distance or more. EVs fit in nicely with the elites' agenda of restricting freedom of movement. I knew it! Isn't that always the case? EV owners often have and use an ICE vehicle whilst promoting EVs and painting a rosy picture of them.
Again…..FFS it works for @oil pan 4 ….. I don’t see him saying it works or would work for everyone but it works for him. I drive a V8 diesel Landcruiser and regularly need to carry extra fuel so I’m never going to get the range or performance I need out of an electric or even hybrid but around Sydney and other capital cities they make some sense.
I now hate Leaf's and hate them so much I may torch a few for the rest of the year or when I see one which is never?
We aren't going to convince this one. Gotta be right, the math maths in their view of how EVs are supposed to be used. Situational data is being ignored thus digging in harder to be right and not backing down.
Fewer and fewer Americans want to buy EVs as of 2024, I wonder why? Maybe because it does not actually make sense in real life for most? 'The math is not mathing' for normal people, only for niche upper classes who like Teslas and can afford magical thinking No wonder the EV market is doing poorly EV Ownership Ticks Up, but Fewer Nonowners Want to Buy One
Clearly some people struggle with basic math and reading comprehension Market data, gas prices, electricity prices, basic math, who cares?
You nailed it. You missed his purchase price, his actual electricity cost after net metering and annual usage and you'll find where the maths no longer math.
And you clearly missed where I stated SEVERAL TIMES that I am referring to the AVERAGE PERSON Not some very atypical guy in a very atypical locality or situation
Ain't no average folks around these parts. It works for him, we do our own calculations it might be worth it to some, others not. But by no means are we average. And that yet another thing ya missed. We don't go by what is good or bad for the average person.
I don't live in the average shitty areas with expensive everything. My electric is cheap $31 surcharge and 8.0 cents a kWh base rate. In 2017 it was $25 and 7 cents. In 2000 it was $20 and 5.5. Hardly double. Gas barely stays under 3x what it was. And fuck California. I don't liv there and never would. Bringing up California is completely irrelevant. Already ran the numbers. Wife's hybrid costs 7 to 10 per mile depending on gas prices and about 1 cent per mile for the oil change. It would be 2 to 3 cents a mile of an oil change place did it.... My base electricity rate is 8 cents per kWh and I get between 3.6 and 4.4 miles per kWh. So your "just as expensive" myth absolutely does no apply to me. There is no "and an expensive battery". So stop lying to people. Grid tied systems do not have or need a battery. Enphase does make a hybrid grid tied system with a battery, these are very uncommon. There 3 types of solar billing. First an most common net metering. Where you get full retail credit for any solar made but not used. Excess at the end of the month or year is sold back at generation rate, which is more like a third of retail, not half. Net billing pays out the full retail price for all solar power generation. This is a great way to create an expensive unstable power grid. No billing plan may pay generation rate for any solar not used in that instant. This appears to be very uncommon, almost unheard of, generation rate is usually more like 1/3 to 1/4 the retail price. And has fuckall to do with electric cars. Having a 70 mile range is irrelevant to me. I realized around 2016 that about 96% of my driving occurs within a 20 by 8 by 20 mile triangle. Our road tripping car is my wife's hybrid or my dodge Dakota beater truck. I fill up my truck with gas once a month and it's usually not anywhere near empty. So it's irrelevant. I already though of this. Limitations were already known and countermeasures already in place before I ever considered buying my leaf. Yeah I know about the depreciation. I bought mine used during a price crash. Irrelevant and not my problem. According to you if something breaks I can just set mine on fire and go buy another one just like it for $3,000 because no one wants them. A $3,000 car, replace every 3 to 10 years, How am I losing anything in that deal? How does having an electric car restrict ones movement when our other car has 630 miles of range when full and there's a pickup sitting in the garage, usually full of gas? Otherwise cool story bro. Seems to me like you read the most clickbait articles you can find written by the by people who failed math.. I'm generally anti electric car and anti solar, but I'm even more anti bullshit. If someone askes me about electric cars I tell almost everyone not to get one. If you're only going to have one car, get a gasser. Anyone that lives around here, I tell them not to get grid tied solar. The reason I got solar panels was a fuck you to the power company, they were trying to sell out to advangrid an evil foreign owned energy conglomerate that doubles your power bill and only ever provides shitty service.
A pretty average situation is 2 adults live together and have 2 vehicles. One of them could be an electric.
Your (supposedly) 8 cents per kWh electricity cost is totally irrelevant to the average person or reader on this forum Cool story though! Most people pay a lot more than that for electricity. You are not telling the full story and there are more costs that you are not calculating. Your solar system was not free. California is relevant only because this is an example of a place where people actually use EVs, and this greatly increases the demand and price of electricity faster than gas But it does not matter, we can use any state or the country as a whole. I used the national average for calculating. National average gas price is $3.16 per gallon and $0.1747 per kWh. They both tend to go up together and it's pointless to compare to pre-War-on-Terror prices, LOL. (The more EV users, the higher the electricity demand/price, rising faster than the gas price, like in California.) What percent of people actually pay 8 cents per kWh, do you think? What is a more realistic cost for most people? Again, your unusual personal circumstances are totally irrelevant for the average reader. And is the $30 surcharge per year? Per month? And you are forgetting the cost of a solar system per kWh in the first place. I don't know what hybrid you have, but a Honda Civic costs about 6 cents per mile to drive nationally, and 1 cent extra per mile for the cheap oil change. It does not cost 10 cents a mile for any length of time that is significant for long-term calculations, that would be $5/gallon national average gas prices, not even the California average reaches that level! Most sources suggest 3.5 miles per kWh for the 2010 leaf. Nissan LEAF Real Range & Battery Capacity / New vs Used / Winter vs Summer. Nissan Leaf 24 kWh 2013 - EV Charging Calculator USA | Green Cars Compare US EPA rates Nissan LEAF fuel economy as 99 mpg-equivalent (combined); 73-mile range For the average person ($0.1747 per kWh), that costs 5 cents per mile. For Idaho (least expensive power state, $0.1188 per kWh), that costs 3 cents per mile. And this is with charging at home, since public chargers cost more. In your cool story (8 cents per kWh, riiiiiiiiight) with 4 miles per kWh, that costs 2 cents per mile. (I originally calculated 3 kWh per mile for a 24 kWh battery with a 73-mile range as when it was first released, 5.67 cents per mile) Google Search You conveniently leave out the many costs of your solar system per mile, which I am ignoring in this calculation. Might be several cents more per mile. You are not telling the full story so there is nothing to say there. People are easily fooled by concentrated benefit vs. diffuse cost. Your solar system was not free. For a normal person, assuming that both cars cost the same and are driven the same amount, at current/21st century average gas prices and current electricity prices, assuming a cheap EV battery replacement cost of $4000, the difference even between the 5 cents per mile and 7 cents per mile at current prices (which are also 21st century average prices including recent years) is small. With a 2-cent difference, that is an extra $0.74 per day to drive the Civic hybrid for the average American 37-mile daily drive. Here the EV is most cost-effective only if it lasts 15 years/200Kmi without the cheap battery replacement. With a 3-cent difference, that is an extra $1.11 per day to drive the Civic hybrid. Here the EV is more cost-effective only if it lasts 10 years/133Kmi without the cheap battery replacement. With a 4-cent difference, that is an extra $1.48 per day to drive the Civic hybrid. Here the EV is more cost-effective only if it lasts 7.5 years/100K mi without the cheap battery replacement. Including the price of EV battery replacement LABOUR, that might be ANOTHER 1 or 2 years added until the EV becomes cost-effective. If both cars are driven for a shorter average daily distance, then it takes EVEN LONGER for the Leaf to be more cost-effective long-term. And the more expensive batteries only give longer range not lifespan, at much higher cost. In your case you are not telling the full story, but with a similar 6-cent difference, that is an extra $2.22 per day to drive a mid-30s mpg ICE car, the EV is more cost-effective only if it lasts 5 years/65K mi without the cheap battery replacement. For differences at around 5 or 6 cents per mile or higher (fuel economy at mid-30s mpg or lower), one must consider the worth of the different features/intended uses of the vehicle.
