20mm Lahti, True redneck special, not good for home defense, but works well as a neighbor defense round. Your neighbor calls in a danger close fire mission and you just shoot through his house. Guaranteed the felon will flee. Watch Thunderbolt and Lightfoot, works for felons and bank entry.
I think I need one of those, I could clear every townhouse on my block with one shot, then call the FD to put out the fire on my east wall.
No actually first off You're obviously an inferior handgun shot yourself without the basic foundation of skills to even defend yourself and certainly have NO business training a novice in the use of anything than perhaps the telephone to call the cops . No doubt you wouldn't recommend a weapon with which you yourself have no skill . I have trained my nephews , children and wife as well as assisting many younger and novice shooters at public ranges I have yet to see a pupil I can't have hitting targets even at ranges well beyond defensive distances in less than 50 rounds . My daughter who has no interest in guns was hitting a 6 inch swinger 50% or so at 15 feet in no time "Less than a box of 50 rounds" . Home defense shootings are measured in feet not yards and unless the pupil has zero eye hand coordination it can be done rather quickly if the instructor is worth a damn . If you find this insulting so be it , I have seen to many people with no clue try to instruct others and have done nothing but turn them off to guns . Next time try using a large target set at perhaps 4 steps away and encourage them to use their natural pointing ability to aim . Bring the weapon up to eye level "just as they would if pointing their finger at something" , concentrate on the target and fire 1 round slowly at a time . Simple question . Which weapon is is faster to bring into action 1) the pistol ON the nightstand or in the drawer or 2) the shotgun or rifle that is propped up between the bed and nightstand/wall or maybe under the bed or in a closet ? I have seen people keep long guns under their beds wrapped in a blanket with the ammo in closets usually kept "somewhere" many times . Long guns are 2 handed weapons , 2 hands that may not be available in a fight . So now why do you suppose handguns got their name ? Many a gunfight has been settle at contact distances which make even training at 10-15 feet seem useless , if you can't teach some1 to reach out put the muzzle against a paper target and hit it I suggest YOU should sell your guns and depend on dogs and pepper spray .
Allright, this train has jumped the tracks. Time to get back on course, everyone take a chill for awhile. This thread is about what kind of gun for an old man who will probably never use it, not tactics thereof, that can be another thread. Don't make me get the pump action .38 with buckshot out.
Actually, guy hears a noise down stairs,rolls outta bed, grabs his teeth, glasses and the shotty drops in two OO, dials 911 while training it down the hallway choke point, he's safe.only us testosterone loaded "dunderheads" are gonna clear every room lookin for a dirt bag to ventilate. ( here comes the flame...) guess that doesn't account for checking out the noise though....
Wow, I have been put in my place so I guess I will just have to relent. No I don't have much experience with pistols. At least not enough to get first place in the san diego IPSC competitions. I have only placed midpack. Hey some of those law enforcement guys in the competitions are pretty good. I can however engage 3 silhouette targets double tap each in 4 seconds from tone to 6th shot from 5 meters. All shots landing inside 8" center mass. Is that enough to get top spot ? Hell no, some guys can do it in half the time. Some national level open division guys will engage 5 steel targets in under 1 second. But I'm in standard division and what I can do is enough to get me mid-pack. Which is better than quite a few law enforcement guys. But hey, you must be some an uber rambo God if you can disarm people holding a shotgun. I'm sure you would dazzle me with your combat pistol skills. This is why I choose a shotgun for home defense. I mean what happens if I have a national level ipsc shooter break into my house ? I only stand a chance with a shotgun. I admit it.
We're not talking a SWAT entry team, we're talking one old guy that just got woke up in the middle of the night.
Exactly, which means he needs the most simple, least skill required tool. It can't get much simpler or easier than a shotgun.
No one has convinced me that a shotgun is the best single weapon. A pistol on the belt is worth more than anything more than 5-feet away. Someone (wish I could remember who) said: "...the pistol is only to get you back to you rifle..." Ultimately, the rifle/shotgun is preferred to a pistol, but you need to have something to get you there. It's kind of hard to take your shotgun with you while mowing the lawn or checking the mail. If my 4' 11" wife can hit a 6-inch target at 15 yards with minimal training and with a pistol that hurts her wrist when firing, certainly a 60 yr-old man can too (unless he's disabled or something). He's only 60! -- he's not decrepit. My nickle...
That is called bullseye shooting and with that you take your time and aim carefully. You don't have that luxury in stressfull conditions. Usually stressfull conditions means you are very short on time. You must draw your weapon and put rounds on target in the shortest time possible. The first stage of ipsc shooting is a single target and you put two rounds in it center mass. You start with your pistol holstered both hands raised up by your ears. Time starts with a tone. Upon hearing the tone the shooter draws, aims then fires two rounds. The time ends on the second shot. Both shots must be center mass. To start people are given 4 seconds to acheive this. The best people can do this in a touch over .5 a second, yes that is a half a second. What you can hit normaly with bullseye shooting you may find yourself unable to when your fighting the clock. Ipsc shooting goes well beyond single targets and does eventualy include different movements and scenareos. Some require engaging targets from a sitting position then standing and moving to another location to engage a third target set further back. Some require moving while reloading, shooting while moving, shooting from a laying position on your back etc. Ipsc shooting was created to simulate combat shooting. Look up a local ipsc group in your area it might fit well with your goals of home protection.
Bingo..... I'm with NVBeav. Hartage, nobody here would argue that a revolver is a better defense weapon than a shotgun, but if he won't have the shotgun with him, where he would the revolver.... the winner is very clear. 1) Working in the garage 2) Mowing the grass 3) Gardening 4) Walking the dog 5) Out for errands/shopping 6) Checking the mail Infinity............. As NVB also said "A pistol on the belt is worth more than anything more than 5-feet away".... couldn't be more spot on in a situation like this. And even a short bbl shotty with a pistol grip is far more difficult to effectively use inside a house than a revolver. I've practiced clearing my house with both revolvers and an AR15 carbine (shorter bbl than shotty and pistol grip), and despite the better stopping power of the AR, I will use my revolver if I can choose. The carbine is just too unweildy around the corners and harder to fire from concealment.
Yes, unfortunately I will have to agree on that point. Pistols are far smaller and lighter making constant carry a possibility. If you read back on my earlier posts I did state that (constant carry) as one advantage of pistols. In my times on the border I always have the sks slung over my shoulder. Even it's carbine size does not make it invisible. But in that terrain pistol will not do well (wide open spaces) so rifle is a must. I suggested shotgun because of the person being so new to guns (never having one before). And the criteria of " 1 weapon " . With that criteria the shotgun is far more flexible in shtf scenario. It can serve well out to 75 yards (slug) hunt deer, rabbit and even anti-grizzly bear (with hardcast bernake slugs) In shtf and ONE weapon only along with the person being a beginner with guns that put my suggestion solidly in the shotgun camp. It can defend you short and longer distances as well as put food on the table and defend against wider range including grizzly bear. The same cannot be said of pistols. So forced with a single weapon the choice for me is still shotgun. Without a single weapon criteria, like you it would be pistol with a shotgun.
I think, if possible a bit more info on the criteria and situation might be helpful. After rereading the original question (kind of hints at more different things than just the title) Im not sure if its talking about a guy who has nerev HANDLED a gun or a guy who has never OWNED his own guns. If he's 60ish then good chance he had military service (would be about the right age to have been drafted if nothing else) and so may have had some training there as well as the possibility of haveing shot some as a kid but didnt buy his own guns when out on his own. Now aside from any prior experience the question seems to hint with, concern about current and possible future situations, at the idea he may be talking about hedging his bets against TSHTF rather than JUST home defense. Next what dose the current level of intrest seem to be? Is he just 'well, I suppose it wouldnt hurt to have one in the closet' or has he made a solid decision (say BECAUSE he is older now and not so sure he could whip the pups that get out of line with his hands) that he wants to be armed all the time? Or around the house? or when going to town around all the little thugs? One more thing to consider is that since it seems the question may also be intended to apply to more a general group of older folks starting out on guns I figure it may be worth mentioning the differences in men and women on the topic. Even with older folks the men typicaly have more strength and bulk so the shotgun may be easier for them to handle than wemon whos age is higher than their weight BUT in my experience (and from ALL the cases of the scared/angry gals who never touched a gun grabbing the pistol pointing and hitting dead on) the ladies take to point shooting a handgun better than most men. The ladies in general are more accustomed to pointing that finger right at you and as long as you dont have them get into trying to aim then they can point and squeeze and most can hit definsivey from the start so long as they arent scared of the gun and flinching bad. Most men on the other hand seem (again in my experience and BOTH refering to 20 yard MAX ranges) seem to take to long arms quicker than most of the ladies. Now with all of that said, there would be a few options dependent on which use its for and who its for. IF it is ONLY for home defense then the pump shotgun is still a very viable option but 2 handguns would seem to top the list IF they seem to take to handguns ok. One choice would be the S&W .38 spl snuby (IIRC its an airweight) that comes from the factory with crimson trace grips for about $450-500 NIB since learning to aim is then no problem, loade it up with hydroshocks and its good to go for carry around the house or out and about or to sit on the nightstand or in the drawer, etc. The othe choice for a handgun IMO would be even better for home deffense but sucks for regular concealed carry (the 12 ga revolver idea) you can pick up revolvers like the Thunder 5 or similar in the $500 range that have long cylenders chambered for .45 LC and ALSO shoot .410 shotgun shells. So with one of these you have the portability of the handgun, wider patterning than a normal shotgun (good across the living room or down the hall) and can shoot IIRC 7 00 buck pellets with each shot and cover a larger area with more impact/knockdown than other handguns. Now if its to carry ALL the time then the .38 w/ laser grips is still an option but might consider going to a semi thats easier to carry and has higher cappacity. My thought if was going to go that road would be a Bersa Thunder 9mm UC for about $300-350 since its very inexpensive, has a 13+1 cappacity and the one I have in .380 has fired around 1k rounds and not had a single malfunction and have heard from other owners of the gun this is the norm. Its also very comfortable and easy to carry and comfortable to shoot and very simple to operate and maintain. Now if it for significant concern with home deffense but ALSO to fill the general bill of 'cover all the bases IF shtf' then by deffinition I would say that HAS to be a shotgun for the wide variety of its abilities from the rabbit to the grizzley and all things in between inside 100 yards (and if they wont be shooting a lot that all anything will do for them). Now if the primairy concern of these 2 is the home defense angle the (but still has to fill the rest of the bill) then would say the pump. If the primary is 'just in case' for a shtf situation but if someone breaks in it should work there too, then I would say get the NEF pardner modle shotgun from Wally world for about $80 then send in for a couple of extra barrels in rifle caliburs (check to be sure first as you can buy both shotgun and rifle barrels one way and ony one type the other so may have to buy the rifle for a bit more money) then you can get the barrels to fill other roles in a SHTF situation and cover whatever bases you want from a long gun. It has the draw back of being a single shot but I have personaly stoped a group of over a dozen home invaders all armed with clubs with just pointing a rifle and not even fireing the first shot so in 99% of the RARE cases (how many folks have you killed in self defense? or even had to pull a gun against someone?) that the gun come into play a single shot is all thats needed. No one wants to be the ONE BG who gets shot before his buddies rush you. Now, if possible then assumeing would BI in a SHTF then to cover all bases as best as possible and kep the cost down I would go with a Charlse Daily pump shotgun and a Bersa thunder 9mm UC at a total combined price of about $500, but thats just me. Theres a good reason WHY there are SOOOOO many types of guns out there, no one guns is right for everything or everyone. So it would have to be a prety detailed description of the job its to fill before you could say for sure and even then there would be some debate based on personal experience. Basicly we know BASICLY what the job is, kind of like if we knew the guy wanted to remove a scew and wanted to know what tool to use. Well the choice seems narrow and the job well defined he will need a screw driver (or a drill with a driver bit!) but we could each come up with a different tool since I may be pictureing a slot head, someone else a phillips, another a star tip but guess what we were all wrong its a hex head screw. So each person had the best tool for the job they thought was being discussed but we ALL assume its that job and the question wasnt any of them. So we have to specify exactly what job our suggested tool dose and from there I doubt there would be much disagreement since most jobs do have a particular perfect tool if you narrow the job enouph. Just my nickles worth.
H... we actually are in agreement about the value of the shotty post shtf. If the subject were "me" instead of the guy in question, and I could choose only 1 firearm, it would be a 12 gauge without hesitation. My first deer was at around 90 yards with a scoped 870 (20 ga). And nobody could deny the usefulness of one on small game and birds. I will be using one to put meat on the table post shtf (as I do now), but I doubt the guy we're talking about will. Luckily, I'll never have to make the "one firearm" choice Maybe we should start a thread about "two firearms"
So it comes down to this. It is NOT IPSC. It is NOT hunting or dual purpose. It is NOT something that gets daily, weekly, or monthly use, maybe no more than once or twice a year does it even get cleaned and checked over. It IS usable by a (given in the question) an elderly man with little if any familiarity with guns in general. To narrow the question a bit, we can assume he won't carry it to the mailbox nor while mowing the grass, and further that he'll use it after being woke up by a noise in the house. (Not a chance in hell the noise that gets his attention will come from the room he is in, the fight is over before it starts in that event) so he has time to put on his glasses. I'll assume (since I can) that his grandkids aren't around, so having a loaded gun is OK in the house. Further, I'll assume (since I can) that the guy is currently in good health with minimal deterioration of physical function. Further, I'll assume when he gets woke up, he'll call 911 and take a defensive position behind the bed, then call melbo since we know the cops will take too long, and he knows he can't clear the house by himself, since untrained. So it's a choice of a shottie of whatever flavor or a revolver, case is made for both in the thread. I still think the shottie takes the cake, in 20 ga with at least 5 on board, extended tube even if possible. Takes care of safety issues (grabbing the wrong end of a pistol) gives him some leverage for retention if it comes to that, light kick for the inevitable deterioration of physical skills which comes as he ages. Airweight 38 gets the second nod, but only if no arthritis in hands or wrists. It comes to personal choice and what the gentleman is most comfortable with. Let this be the select committee report that goes to the thread starter, I think it is flogged quite sufficiently.
Melbo, I suggest having a shotty and a .38 and have the gentleman try them both out to see which one he uses the best, and is the most comfortable with. Before picking one out, discuss the use, environment, and feasibility of each weapon. Let him try to load and pump the shotgun, load and shoot the pistol. If possible do a dry run of him walking through and clearing his house, or at least getting to another room where loved ones are, or where he might need to get to a phone. Direct him, but let him try and choose. If he is not comfortable with it, he will not be confident about using it. It is after all, his life.
