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1st post. Who studies martial arts?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by grooveline, Aug 19, 2007.

  1. grooveline

    grooveline feelin x-tra paranoid

    As the title says, who studies martial arts? I have abeen studying wing tsun for a little over two years now. it is a close quarter, no frills martial art.

    I find that all the talk about guns to be limited in that each state has diff. regulations, and fines for not following such regulations. not everyone can/wants to carry around a pistol in their ride. i don't want mine taken if the cops get uppity.
  2. Blackjack

    Blackjack Monkey+++

    First of all, welcome to the Monkey!

    Secondly... your speakin' my language :) (once I get started talking about it, it's hard to stop).

    Third... there is something I really like about Wing Tsun, but I'll hold on that for a sec.

    (I'll paste my history from another thread)
    From age 12 to about age 32. I'm 38 now.... and very much out of shape.

    Started with Tae Kwon Do, Judo, and wrestling in school, went to boxing while in college. Won my division at Indiana Golden Gloves in 87. Joined the army, got on the all army Europe team. While in the army in Germany, was introduced to a variety of styles, my favorite at the time being muay thai. Got to do some mma events while there (back then it wasn't organized like it is now, but you could make a little money on the side).

    And I've had several jobs where a lot of the technique was put to practical use. I've been a bouncer in a strip bar and security at an emergency psych ward. Throw in my being a bit "easily provoked" in my younger days, and I'd like to think I've been able to get a good feel for what works in real life and what just looks good in the gym or dojo.

    To show for it, my nose has been broken a couple times, I've got a bad knee, bad wrists, one bad knuckle, a few minor scars from stitches, a jaw that inexplicably locks up every so often, and my two front teeth are made of porcelain. But you know, I wouldn't change a minute of it.

    Now about Wing Tsun:
    For a long time my MA pet peeve has been that traditional ma techniques are mostly unrealistic in a fight and do nothing but get your butt kicked. Most of the experts.... are NOT, and have never even been in a real fight. They teach (for example) a hi block or side block, but these techniques are useless in a fight. Not only useless, but foolish and dangerous to try. As a group we learned this when all the "experts" came together for the birth of the UFC. None of the rigid techniques worked, which is why I always preferred (in general) "combat sports" over "martial arts".

    Which is why I like Wing Tsun (for what very little I know about it).
    I'll quote Wikipedia....
    "The central idea is that, under pressure, it is impossible to visually recognize the precise direction and speed of an attack and make a conscious decision on an effective way in which to react, all within the very brief amount of time you have before your opponent's attack lands. Rather, one must (counter) attack immediately in a very direct and protected manner, and rely on reflexes to determine how to react if the opponent's attack continues to pose a problem."
    Bingo! That's where, I believe, Wing Tsun has it right and most others have it wrong.

    Now my questions for you as I'm always anxious to learn more. Does Wing Tsun ever get into takedowns & throws, ground fighting, submissions/chokes? Or does it stick to just striking? And is there a competitive element to the style (tournaments/free fighting)?
  3. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    Jeeez black jack, no wonder your back is acting up thats alot of hard abuse..but I 'll still call you next time I 've a bunch of "del fuego " butt to kick...[touchdown][winkthumb]
  4. grooveline

    grooveline feelin x-tra paranoid

    Now my questions for you as I'm always anxious to learn more. Does Wing Tsun ever get into takedowns & throws, ground fighting, submissions/chokes? Or does it stick to just striking? And is there a competitive element to the style (tournaments/free fighting)?

    A: Takedowns? yes. Throws? yes. Ground Fighting? We train to avoid the reaction to grab. rather to hit continuously. But yes we do train ground fighting. Submission/Choke? We train to hit the center line. Nose, throat, sternum, groin. I guess you could chock on your broken wing pipe. As you progress you learn how to use soft control of people.

    The main concept of getting good at wing tsun is chi sao. Chi sao itself is not a fighting technique, but it facilitates the pressures encountered in combat, letting you fine tune a specific action to a specific pressure, and to stay close and sticky to your opponent. thats why chi sao is called stick hands. I.E. Oppent throws a right hook... your left hand goes to intercept this strike. since the strike is make a curving motion from your left to right, this pressure will make your arm do a specific motion all the while staying in contact with his arms.

    anyway i figure that a lot of people here grandstand about how they're gonna make to their cache of supplies and wait it out. well... what if you don't? what heppens if you get put into a fema camp? then the guards stop feeding you and other americans for your beliefs. they have guns and you don't. i don't want to here the lame response of " shit, i'll just go crazy on 'em" it just won't work.

    To be perfectly honest fellow survivors... I had a premonition in 7/2005 that i only had three years to get prepared for some of the worst shit possible. There, I said it.
  5. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    I have trained a fair bit in various styles and also worked the bars, clubs and unarmed body guard stuf when younger. That said I will say that while MAs can be an excelent tool to add to the ones at your disposal dont delude yourself into thinking its the begin all end all. While I dont consider myself some kind of badazz or anything, at 6'2" and about 250 lbs with experience behind me, I dont really fear being attacked hand to hand by anyone and even a few punks with ballbats I have more than once stood and offered them their chance while unarmed and walked away when things were done BUT likely as not if I go out this evening and some guy drops into a fighting stance and appears that he may know what hes doing while 10' away...I'll pull out my handgun thats always on me and pop 3 or 4 rounds in his face then it wont matter how many blackbelts he had.

    I dont say this to say that MA are not an excelent tool, they are. Just like a hammer is a great tool but not every problem is a nail ad not all needs will be met by MA for defence. A balanced aproach is needed. In the situation you mentioned a good knowledge of improvised weapons and their use would be more valuable (or better yet just good ability at E and E without confrontation) such as makeing a shank out of a glass shard or sap out of a rock and a sock or what ever so the captor could be approach in a friendly nonthreatening manner then attacked by surprise from behind after passing and the gun taken from the coarpse. Even then you would most likely be killed rather than succeed and if you did succeed then the other dozen guards would most likely put so many holes in you the wind wouldnt even slow down before you could ever get the ones weapon from his body....it would just be a situation not likely to live through by confrontation, would require yet other tools. The MA might however be helpful against the other hungry prisoners if diplomacy couldnt convince them to go be the cannon foder for the guards while you ran.

    I guess what Im basicly trying to say is that MA are a great idea, just dont fall for the super ninja myth...like one of the fundamentals to all MA (or at least all of them I can think of) keep your balance.
  6. Blackjack

    Blackjack Monkey+++

    I agree with monkeyman..... don't just rule out the firearms, a beginner with a 45 is a lot more dangerous than any seasoned fighter with his fists.
  7. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    Man may have a point,and has presented an interesting scenario but Ask black jack if martial arts helps inmates in a max security operation where you've got 1 p.o.'d 250lb inmate throwing feces and 6 corrections officers with helmets, Vests, electric shields, CS, and tasers...Just another day on the job for those guys. wing fung fu or not....[own2]

    FWIW purely the opinion of a martial arts outsider, I just believe common sense says fighters are taken into account in handling procedures , super max or not; turn around hands through the slot for cuffs; shackles on the feet .multiple officers/tasers and.cs

    You may kill one unsuspecting guard, and that may be enough for your break,Or in a martial law situation you could be shot dead in your "horse stance". No soldier is gonna stand toe to toe and duke it out and take a potentially fatal beating; When they don't have too.As a non martial artist, I wouldn't. "The prisoner threatened my life": bang. lunch time...[troll] Guess Monkeyman said basically the same thing.
  8. Blackjack

    Blackjack Monkey+++

    That would be the cell extraction team..... and they always win ;)

    It's surprising how compliant a combative becomes when a little pepperspray is introduced into the cell and they're allowed to "cook" for about ten minutes. Of course no correctional facility admits to using that practice, so it must not really happen.... right. [booze]
  9. grooveline

    grooveline feelin x-tra paranoid

    Please read more carefully.

    Supermax prison and a fema camp are mile wide in difference. Supermax= convicts. Fema Camp= Patriots, fellow americans.

    Martial arts in a supermax? yes... against the inmates. Not against a ratio of 6 guards to one convict... hell i watch the History channel. lame on your part.

    Fema Camp? I would say yes considering we would be bunking with many people per shack/ cabin. People who are not criminals and who are very pissed off.

    By most of the answers it seems that if the NWO were to send out it's monkeies to disarm you and take you away... you'll just roll over.
  10. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    Agree that was a weak point in my reply however: I meant to point out people in charge take into account not every guard or cop is a 6' 3 300lb brawler: procedures and equipment are in place to more than even up the oddes in favor of the authorities....

    I agree with monkey man its a great tool to and i'm sure it has many "healthful" mental and physical benefits. BTW Welcome to the monkey.

    Fema Camp? I would say yes considering we would be bunking with many people per shack/ cabin. People who are not criminals and who are very pissed off.
    "By most of the answers it seems that if the NWO were to send out it's monkeies to disarm you and take you away... you'll just roll over".

    Easy to be brave on the keyboard "grasshopper".

    Jeez integrity insulted because I (and 2 others) pointed out a possible flaw in your self generated scenario.
    Go beat your chest in the dojo , I'm sorry 3 reasonably rational folks pointed out ( oddly enough; the same) flaws in your carefully crafted ninja scenario.I don't care what you think about rolling over; beating my (keyboard) chest and rattling off a resume of dojos or belts and rationalizing one style over another based on a carefully crafted fantasy is internet bs.
    Minuteman can expound on the legions of "cold dead hand folks" who shout, then wither and quietly slink out the back under illumination.

    If you were playing badazz in a bunk kicking everyones butt. someday 10 or 15 of your bunkies may take offense at the same time.I'm getting sick of people justifying their particular skills or even purchases by claiming everyone else is stupid or nuts.
    "quote":I don't want to here(hear) the lame response of " shit, i'll just go crazy on 'em" it just won't work."
    Well seems all four of us tend to agree there.
    Well welcome to the monkey.

    If I were to go to prison would I prefer to be a strong quick martial artist?.( of course no brainer!).Not happening in reality though. besides I don't have a dog in this fight.( other than being personnally insulted for pointing out the possible flaws in your premise) I wasn't planning on getting into urination contest here tonight.

    If you are fast, strong and disciplined that's very admirable and to be envied. Great for you; I'm sure you worked hard to get that way.
    Perhaps the Gunny will check in; He's the guy with real world training and experience in lethal hand to hand combat..He can play in that league and has much reality to pass on.All I can do is offer an outside view from someone without years invested
    towards one "style" or style or another.Common sense tells me if I go up against a trained fighter barehanded I'm going to the hospital or worse. I'm sure you wouldn't argue otherwise. big deal. It is an unfortunate reality a .45 or .38) can best years of sweaty bloody knuckled training (its only physics).It may not always be at hand: that is the advantage of years of sweaty bloodied knuckled training.Great.
  11. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    [peep]:oops:(Note to self: :stay the hell on ebay at 0130)

    I'm sorry, that was embarassing...and it strayed way off the interstate through the medium( er- ah "median"?) .I have no business sticking my nose in a thread on martial arts.[OT]eek3[tng2][micro]

    fish on....
    Good time for a self imposed ban take a break for abit....(I'll be hangin w/clyde).
  12. grooveline

    grooveline feelin x-tra paranoid

    Tango! Don't go!

    Let me clarify my position.
    1) I 'm not saying one style is better.. any style is good as long as it is treated like a skill and practiced often.
    2) Regarding bunkmates in the fema camp.. i would fight them... we as a collective would as they say in COunter Stike: Storm the front!
    3) There is no such thing as a super ninja.
    4) And I want this considered... You just got picked up by US troops and thrown into a camp because you were resisting unjust martial laws. What do you do?
  13. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    First let me also say welcome aboard, and I do hope my responses will be taken in the spirit they are intended, simply to give things to consider to close any potential gaps in a line of thought or maybe have another view made clear enouph for me to find another way to look at things.

    Ok that said, I'll mention my own thoughts on a couple of the points. As to point 2 above while its a grand idea and MAY be able to happen, in your senario the guards ae armed and the prisoners ae not. While the fact is that most likely there would be far more prisoners than the guuards would have bullets to shoot, they would likely only need to pop a couple rounds in the dirt to make 95% (conservativly) of the prisoners behind you perfectly compliant and have them hideing in their bunks. VERY few would charge live fire, especialy unarmed, to make sure the others could get to the shooter with a good chance of being shot. So figure on the mass charge turning into a mass retreat very quickly with only a very small handfull at best attempting to press on.

    As to point 4 of what would I do captured by troopers and tossed in the camps? Well I will asume I was unarmed and or masively out gunned (second being VERY likely) and the anwser...I would most likely go along peacfuly and respectfuly and while being a drain on their resources in the cmp I would be as fine a prisoner as possible and even try for a position as a trustee or some such while I would bide my time and keep a close eye on what materials and oprotunities were available to aid in an escape or in strikeing a wound to the forces against the people. Get in a position where you are a janitor and you are likely to have access to bleach and amonia, get in a position of maintnance and you may have access to a lot of things like tools and materials and even a gas tourch, as a cook you would likely have access to knives, the food supply for the guards and likely a gas stove with containers that could contain it. Lots of things nessicary in any compound/prison/camp can be rather dangerous or at the least a big distraction that gets all attention on one end of the area while you exit the other end unnoticed. Basicly my point is that it may be possible to escape or be a thorn in their side even from within a camp and at the least keping you there costs them a LOT more than a few bullets so I would go shepishly along to their camp and wait for my oprotunity rather than charge an armed man or try to beat him unarmed and toe to toe, it would only get you a bit of lye and a hole in the ground at best and for that matter it would be the same if faceing a dozen cops/soldiers who were attempting to apprehend you on the street if you were armed.

    MA have their place but fighting people with guns, especialy if there is more than one or the confrontation starts beyond contact distance (and anyone with training like guards will try to be sure thats the case) is NOT it. It would be more likely useful in this senario for use against your fellow prisoners who might try to take the crumbs of food you had or some other basic mugging type senario.
  14. Quigley_Sharps

    Quigley_Sharps The Badministrator Administrator Founding Member

  15. Blackjack

    Blackjack Monkey+++

    No kidding? You really don't see the difference?
  16. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    A Lurker responds: as previously explained my reading comprehension skills hit the door around 0100...The "gist" I caught was training to
    A) fight the guards
    b) grab the pudding cups from your fellow hungry patriots..
    c) keep the riff raff out of your "corn- holio"
    A: was rediculous.. b: I considered ahbhorent.c:, made some sense
    I would go along like monkeyman to live to fight from inside by organizing fellow patriots inside.fighting guard troops after the "riot act " is read is a noisy version of suicide.
    a weakly organized( or loosely associated) mob will flee at the first burst of gunfire, a strongly motivated force( teammates, squad members, friends) with an objective and people who would die to protect each other win engagements...Thats all we're saying.
    Be handy to have a weapon ingognito like a trained martial artist or seal vet to do the dirty work from the inside...[nutkick]
    whoops just made the "red-list" there
  17. Ommega

    Ommega Monkey+++

    [​IMG] Re: 1st post. Who studies martial arts?
    <HR style="COLOR: #d1d1e1" SIZE=1>Tango! Don't go!

    Let me clarify my position.
    1) I 'm not saying one style is better.. any style is good as long as it is treated like a skill and practiced often.
    right on brother!

    2) Regarding bunkmates in the fema camp.. i would fight them... we as a collective would as they say in Counter Strike: Storm the front!
    Ditto again!

    3) There is no such thing as a super ninja.
    Not So; I've known and fought some super ninja type folks.
    My teacher Kim was a close friend of Bruce Lee and was also ranked in the book of who's who as being the second best in the world.
    First I'll say what is possible by explaining what I did and who I beat a long time ago, then I'll tell you about how to do the same.
    If the third degree two year D.C. area kick boxing champ is still alive..... please sign on to confirm the following statement:
    Did I kick your butt at fort Bragg Army base in 1967, and did I hit the NC heavy weight boxing champ so hard that it stopped his heart after he landed on his ass?
    (My weight was just 148 pounds at 6' 3" tall.)
    Hope I got your attention!
    Take any Karate school and go to every class they have.
    Always give 101% effort in every punch, kick and block!!!
    Use empathy as a tool for improvement. (think about what your opponent is thinking)
    After you have been hit with a good move, go home and think of what you could do to prevail if that move is used again.
    Practice, practice, and practice is what Bruce told me to do after I asked him how he got to be so good.

    There are people that are as good as Lee out there still today....Maybe even better.
    There are SUPER NINJAS and most likely would be able to take away your toys and shove it down your throat...or worst!
    CQC skills will be needed if you are unarmed and confined.
    The problem is that they require much work to acquire and maintain!
    I gave away my Karate patch that said "The ultimate in Self Defense"...."It's your mind stupid" is my new patch :)
    The ability to reason is our greatest weapon!!
    Your Bud,

    4) And I want this considered... You just got picked up by US troops and thrown into a camp because you were resisting unjust martial laws. What do you do?
    First you need to THINK about your limitation, and work within that limit as to assure success!
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