.22 Cal. penetration test on fresh deer skull

All great posts here. I thank you all for thanks on the test. It was a little scary bringing it out because I was afraid of lots of attacks from those who think .22 rounds bounce off bone and such. Touting poachers is kind of bad but the truth is those guys are very good at killing deer with small quiet rounds like the 17 hmr and .22 rim fire. I had to do the test to see why and how they get it done. Scrambled brains drop deer. Its that simple. I have posted this test on another website and the replies there are not as positive but they are kind of speechless about the penetration and I know many are shaking their heads in disbelief. I think it all boils down to guns are dangerous, all of them.

One of my next tests is going to be a crossbow bolt with a practice point on a deer skull. I wonder if it will go all the way through? Kingfish

 

King, ya gotta remember the first word of this Forum's name is "SURVIVAL". PC don't really cut it with us so we tend to not BS at all. Its a realistic view of things we have. Sum of us have prejudices but we know we do & tend to look beyond them toward what works. Personally I consider a .223 marginal on a human, but I still KNOW it'll work. Thats just my caliber prejudice. I know that even a lowly .22lr will kill a Bear if put in the right spot. Catch is, getting that right spot before the pissed off bear eats YOU!!! LoL

 

I am a huge fan of the.22lr; But we have to realize: that deer head was laying on the ground not attached to a swaying neck. the firm ground contact allowed all the energy to transfer; if the still attached skull moved with the neck when struck by the projectile some of the energy would be dissipated by the"give".

Also I'd like to add "lethality" and stopping power" are twoentirely different things.
If I have to stop you before you bring a knife down on someones head;with a.22:

Unless I scramble the brain or achieve a central nervous system hit; you may very well carry out your deadly deed, just to wander off and die a few minutes later. Even as a stout proponent of the .22 I sadly have to admit it is not a panacea or imbuedwith paranormal abilities. Good thread though!

 

Kingfish

Thanks for bringing this up, it needed to be posted. As you and others have found out, the lowly .22LR penetrates very well.

My late father used to help out the local farmers slaughtering hogs and steers. He used an old Remington bolt gun and RemingtonHP Golden bullets. He shot many hogs in the 400 lb range, and a couple of bulls in the 1200 to 1800 lb range. All but the largest bull went down with one shot to the head. He was swing his head because of a fly or something and moved during Dad's trigger pull. It still stunned him well enough for Dad to run up and plant him with the next shot.

I prefer neck shots instead of head shots, shooting for the spine best I can. That will drop deer sized animals with one shot easily.

A cousin of mine doesn't have a decent defensive rifle, but he does have a 10/22. Sine I owe his dad so much (like a 2nd father to me) I've been thinking of buying a scope rail for him, and a red dot sight of some type with a couple of bricks of ammo. Top it off with a few 30 rd mags, and I think he will be good to go. A 50 yd zero will be perfect with this setup, and he should be able to make 100 yd shots as needed. I'll see to it.

I've been thinking of a .25 cal muzzle loader flintlock to replace the existing .22's I have if the ammo runs out. Maybe up to a .30 for that. Any suggestions?

jim

 

Muzzleloading "squirrel rifles" are usually .32.( or.36?) molds, balls and load data are available in.32.
.25 I am not familiar with( but that don't mean much!) lol

 

The most recent richchet of a .22 I saw. was on TV's, "Swamp People" where the guy shot a 'gator in the wrong spot and it splattered, some bone fragments and a bit of lead hit a guy! Now since I live in the desert, I doubt that I'd have to be too familiar with that "quarter sized spot" to kill one, but ya never know! I have seen them bounce off a few things, but none from an animal...yet!
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(That test with a "frozen"(!)turkey wrappedin 3 layers of clothing took place at 300yards! through and through penetration!)


"Actual information not being available, I decided to conduct a test myself to see how far would a 22LR round penetrate 3 layers of clothing and penetrate skin as well. I looked at several options such as using ballistic gel, wet newspaper, etc… but finally ended up with the cheapest option and, what I thought the somewhat most realistic as well: purchasing a frozen turkey, thaw it and wrap it in 3 layers of clothing. This would be a good test to see how far the 22LR would penetrate."

 

Those are valid points. When I do another one Ill suspend it on some ropes or bungy cords. My Idea for use would be from a tree stand with a down angle giving me total control of the shot placement to the top ,side back or frontal lobe. From what I saw The bullet only needs to go in not out. My next test will be a 1400 fps 40 grain jacked hollow point CCI Velocitor.

I dont think there will be a lot of change in the results of how I suspend the head. A bullet moves so fast that there is no time for the head to move. As it was it could have rolled on impact but didnt. But that's a good observation and Ill try the next one suspended. KF

 

Just had to bring that up; worked as a calibration tech in a USAF precision measurement lab; Looking hard for sources of "induced error" in tests was part of the job.
I'm a "one gun what can you pickup and carry guy"I dearly wish the .22lr was the end all be all solution. (.22wmr mayactually be "it" though.) I can't afford too many toys;I certainly can't carry too many.

 

In some areas the .22 rimfire is the end all, only gun you need and in others it doesnt have much use at all. What I have seen are too many radical internet know it all cut and paste experts who dont have a real clue as what any cartridge does much less the .22. They make statements like if you shot me with a .22 I would just get mad and beat you to death with your rifle. How about this one, .22 rifles are only good for practice. The truth is they are as deadly as any other rifle in the hands of a competent shooter. Way too often there are comments made by morons that have stopped a guy or gal from buying a good .22.

For me(where I live) My .22 rifles are the most important rifles we have. But that doesn't mean they are so important I don't have shotguns and much bigger rifles in center fire. When it comes down to defense stopping power is so much more important. I mean sure I could ambush an attacker and make a head shot from like 50 yards and drop him like a stone. But what then? What if he has 5 buddies with AK-47'S?? I just dont see a .22 in a gun fight unless I have several others on my side. I think a Ruger 10-22 with 30 round mags shooting high velocity rounds would be great for suppression fire out to 150 yards. The much cheaper rounds being wasted while my sniper uses his .223 or better to take out individual targets.

I just think the .22 has so much importance in the fact that rounds are cheap and wasting them isnt a big deal. My deer head test shows us all just one will do to a skull. Im telling you, you put two or three velocitors in a guys chest center mass? He is NOT going to charge 100 yards to beat you with your rifle. Hes going to die and faster then most people think. My 10-22 is my third choice in defensive weapons after my AR-15 and 30-06 rifles. I place it before my 20gauge 870 as I feel it has better range,accuracy,AND MAGAZINE CAPACITY. I know lots of guys will disagree the it should be 4th after the shotgun but I like the 30 round capacity and the much better sights and optics. I can also carry way more ammo then I can if Im carrying my shotgun. Kingfish

 

There have been more deer taken with a 22 all other calibers combined !!!!!!!!
LMAO

 

Probably so, however, in a Mad Max world I'd hunt with the 22 while packing an AK or AR.

 

I'd forgotten this, but one of my great uncles told me that back from the turn of the last century until they lost the ranch during the depression, they had a Winchester .22 singleshot that they did most of their deer killing with. According to them, bucks went to around 150 lbs (unlike now!) and they killed more deer with that little rifle firing shorts in the heavy brush (Hill Country west of Austin) than with anything else.

I remember reading Jack O'Connor writing that the standard velocity .22LR's shot flatter and more accurately over long distances than the High Velocity stuff. The HV was supposed to do better at ranges to 50 yds. Never tried it out to see if that was true or not. Does anyone know?

Thanks for the calibre suggestions. I'm thinking the smallest size like maybe .32 would be best for varmints, but then I can do wooden arrows and a light bow on them too. Maybe I'll get a .36 that way I can cast for a CB revolver too.

I think Tappan suggested if your retreat was attacked from ny range to just use a .22 to sucker them. Fire five rounds, wait long enough to make it seem like you are reloading the only thing you have, then fire another five rounds. Once they commit to an open attach then you can hit them with the bigger stuff.

jim

 

I read an article in Backwoodsman magazine a few years ago that described how to reload .22LR. I'll see if I can dig up that issue again.

It process involved using an small nail inserted into the case and used to tap out the crimp left by the firing pin.

Cleaning the case real well, and then replacing the primer with strike anywhere match head primers (I'm sure that the primers have been reformulated since then to make this harder or impossible)

using a bit of black powder for propellant, and seating/crimping a new bullet.


I can see three logistical issues right away, a source for bullets, crimp/die, and the Primer......

I thinks that reloading for .22lr is not impossible, but more a matter of "is it worth the effort?" especially when you can buy it for $20/500? I've just been buying 500 every payday for the last 10 years, and plan to keep doing so until they are no longer available.

I'm more interested in a bolt action with a suppressor on it.



Fanderal

 

Saw a cz455 .22wmr in a gun shop yesterday(I see they are easily convertible to .22lr or.17hmr with a barrel /mag kit $130.00for lr).$430.00
Smoking hot rifle!IfI just deer hunt with the enfield mk4 this year I can use my "cookie jar" money for the cz! drool.

.
Oh yeah;FWIW here's a post on.22wmr penetration through various metals:
(Please, scroll down to reply #6...)

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f33/22-wmr-93-fv-savage-accuracy-30600/

 

A friend who farms uses a .22 Mag to kill deer while driving around harvesting crops. I said a .22 Mag is not much of a deer gun, but he got 49 deer with 50 shots, hard to argue with that!

Over on snipersden (?) desertfrog was shooting at a store bought turkey at 300 yards. Yes the test is flawed, frozen turkey thawed, hollow (bullet actually passing through maybe two inches of meat), etc., but until I want to do some tests with a deer off the side of the road, that is as good as it gets. At least HE actually "went and done", which is more than I have, and I give him a lot of credit for it!

 

The last several deer that I took, I shot with a .22 Colt Woodsman while huddled under a quilt on the porch of my cabin next to the garden. I have never shot one with a .22 rifle, but I did beat a buck to death with a boat paddle once. CCI Mini-mags rock!

 

Jim2, regarding what Jack said about 22lr. The subsonic rounds are said to be more accurate because they do not transition the sound barrier. As far as shooting flatter, he said that about a lot of stuff like the .270. Kinda true but a stretch. Not true of the standard or subsonic LR. There is a point where slower velocity rounds can penetrate more than the same bullet going faster. I don't think that is the case with the 22lr. I do know 22lr rounds do penetrate deeper than some pistol rounds.
Thanks for the information guys. As far as the CZ 455. I would buy it. I have 2 CZ452's they are very accurate and well made. They do not have the interchangeable barrel though. Hard to beat a CZ for the money. Not cheap I know but well worth it. I have a bull barrel 10/22 that is great and nearly as accurate as the CZ's.
I dunno about MOA 100 yard shots with a 22 LR. Accuracy falls off about 75 yards as the bullet slows down and becomes less stable. I would not try a brain shot at that range. Most 22 LR would be good accuracy wise to 50 yards, your mileage may vary. I changed this post.

 

Good points above, however there are many types of .22 rimfire available and all of them together make for difficult choices. From the little .22 short like the CCI CB shorts which travel at 710 fps to the Aquila at 1700 fps. bullet grains from 29 to 60 hollow points and solids, copper jacketed and plain lead. Lots of different loads and they all do different things from pistols and rifles. That was really the reason we did the penetration test thing. For instance we found that using a cci stinger at 20 yards on a squirrel blew the animal up. Why? 1600 fps with 36 grain hollow point is why. Best small game round was the cb short at 710 fps. This round wasted zero meat. How ever from a pistol the stinger only did between 800 and 1100 fps depending on barrel length making it better for close range handgun use as it got penetration and expansion without over expanding.

The main problem with .22 is the lack of shocking power which is the very reason you dont try chest shots on deer with one. Even a 1440 fps 40 grain velocitor hollow point will not kill a deer fast enough with a chest shot. The lack of blood trail would be a lost deer almost every time. The only setup I would use would be from an elevated tree stand using an accurate rifle shooting a solid 40 grain bullet with shot placement to the central brain lobe. Straight on that is right between the eyes into the crown, from the side as I demonstrated or from the back which would really be the best angle into the brain cavity. Hitting the skull is the only way that there is enough shocking power where a .22 can be assured of knocking the animal down. You may still have to cut the jugular to finish the deer. Poachers have used head shots with .22 rifles for decades with devastating results. I talked with one of my local D.N.R. officers who told me about the carcass piles they find in the woods from professional poachers. almost every one shot with placement right between the eyes. This leads them to believe that spot lights are used at night and the shooters just aim between the two glowing eyes.

Where the round really gets disrespected is out to and beyond 100 yards. We all know the round is very lethal inside of 50 yards. However from a long barreled rifle a higfh velocity round like the Velocitor is still making over 1000 fps at 100 yards. The only rounds that are effective past 100 yards get better than 1300 fps at the muzzle. They include the AQUILA which is 1700 fps and is rated the fastest .22 lr. the CCI STINGER at 1640 fps , the Velocitor and a couple others like the Yellow Jacket. There are ballistic charts out there showing which rounds drop off the fastest. We really found that the Velocitor was the best all around .22 round for larger game as it has the heaviest bullet of all the hyper rounds and still made 1430 feet per second. It did the best in long range penetration tests and held together in medium range tests. I load our .22 pistols with this round.

The best all around hunting round is a standard 40 grain solid as I showed in my deer head test which blew out the skull and on squirrels they dont explode like the hypers do. I stock more of those than any other round. CCI mini mags are by far the most reliable of those although I have several thousand Winchester Wildcats which so far have worked real well.

I do NOT advocate using these for defense. I have .44 mag, 30-06, shotguns and other means to stop human threats. BUT;;;;;;; If you have to use a .22 for defense you are very limited in what will work. In my humble opinion only the Velocitor measures up surpassing the 25 acp,32 and 380 in penetration from a hand gun. The .22 should never be intentionally relied on for defense but you should know what round is the best for defense. The 40 grain hollow point will expand on contact with flesh at 25 feet to 36 caliber and moving at close to 1000 fps will kill quite quickly especially if you get more than one round in the chest. On contact with a rib it will go to 38 caliber and may even fragment causing more trama and bleeding. The solids may just pass through as they dont have #1 enough speed and #2 no expansion from a pistol. From a rifle it is a completely different set of results. The velocitor will most likely fragment and may not penetrate near as far due to over expansion. Solid soft lead bullets are more effective from rifles at close range.

These are just facts taken from test results. Then you have Ronald Reagan who was shot with a small slow bullet from a handgun that bounced of the door of the car and hit him in the armpit. The bullet was like a dime when it hit him . He would have bled out in 15 minutes if he had not gotten medical treatment when he did. There are always going to be exceptions like this. There are also going to be exceptions where you shoot a deer between the eyes and it does not go down. That is the legacy of the .22 rimfire.

I see it as the best all around survival round as they are cheap, easy to store in ammo cans, they kill most any game size animals up to deer. They can be used for 150 yard surpression fire and last resort defensive weapons. I would rather have a .22 rifle and 500 rounds then any Bow or non firearm weapon . There is no other round that you can carry enough to survive for two years without resupply. Knowing what each type of .22 rimfire can do is the key to using one in your survival plan.


Accuracy really is an important thing in this round. Your rifle or handgun will tell you what it shoots best. I have a Marlin (pre Remington) 981-t bolt action. It shoots cb shorts to dime size groups at 20 yards . I make head shots on squirrels ALL THE TIME. Shooting standard CCI mini mag 40 grain solids the group at 30 yards is 1/2 to 3/4 inch at 100 yards is about 2 inches shooting from a rest. With my Ruger SR-22 Pistol at 25 feet shooting velocitors I can empty a 10 round mag in seconds and keep all of them in a 6 inch circle. Test your .22 weapons and know what gives you the best performance . Everything matters with this round.