1. Given the media intensity given to the Covid 19 (otherwise known as Corona or Wuhan) virus, there seems no reason to have posts on that very specific subject in several forums Accordingly, all of those posts will be moved to "Headlines". All new items on that subject should be posted there as well. This notice will expire on 30 June or be extended if needed.

6.5 is out and two 6.8s are in.

Discussion in 'Firearms' started by HK_User, May 16, 2020.

  1. HK_User

    HK_User A Productive Monkey is a Happy Monkey

    Civilian rounds are great.
    Less recoil than a 5.56

    VSOFIC NEWS: SOCOM Wants Next-Gen Squad Weapon, Lighter Ammo

    By Connie Lee

    Photo by Senior Airman Ryan Conroy

    Special Operations Command has its eye on the Army’s next-generation squad weapon, an acquisition official said May 13.

    When asked if the command plans to adopt the new weapon, Col. Joel Babbitt, program executive officer for SOF warrior, said: "Yes, absolutely."

    “As the Army moves forward, we are absolutely cheerleaders for that effort," he said during the virtual Special Operations Forces Industry Conference, or vSOFIC, which is managed by the National Defense Industrial Association. "Our partnership with PEO soldier out of the Army … is absolutely strong."

    The service’s next-generation squad weapon program has been one of the Army’s most high-profile soldier lethality efforts. Besides new weapons, the program also includes the development of a new 6.8 mm round that is expected to be more lethal than the current 5.56 mm NATO ammunition.

    In August 2019, the Army awarded other transaction authority agreements to Sig Sauer, General Dynamics Ordnance and Tactical Systems and Textron Systems, which are all providing prototypes for soldier evaluation.

    Delivery of weapons and ammo for formal test and evaluation is slated for December of this year.

    Noting that 70 percent of Special Operations Command’s deployed forces are part of the Army component, Babbitt said the command has participated in multiple soldier touchpoints to provide input regarding the weapon and the accompanying 6.8 mm ammo.

    “That certainly is a great capability that we see coming forward,” he said.

    The command is also looking for lighter ammo that would reduce overall cartridge weight by 20 to 30 percent compared to the current brass rounds, Babbitt noted. According to his presentation slides, the command plans to release a request for proposals for 7.62 mm lightweight cased linked ammunition in the fourth quarter of this fiscal year, and award a contract in fiscal year 2021.

    “We have a number of efforts getting after lightweight ammunition,” he said. Potential materials for future cases include polymer or stainless steel. However, “there’s a number of different approaches that vendors should take into this,” he added.

    SOCOM is looking for lighter casing for many of its bullets.

    “After .50 caliber, .338 is probably the next easiest simply because the larger the caliber, the larger the weight savings that you get ... and the easier it is to produce and to get reliable casing," Babbitt said. the command is interested in that technology for "all of our different calibers," he added.

    SOCOM is also working with the military services on this effort, he noted. The Marine Corps is taking the lead on adopting a polymer case for the .50 caliber rounds.

    “All of us are coming together to shift to polymer rounds just because of the weight savings,” Babbitt said. The military wants "polymer cases for our rounds and also polymer links or stainless steel or alloy or something like that to get away from the heavy brass," he added.

    Topics: Special Operations, Special Operations-Low Intensity Conflict
    Last edited: May 16, 2020
    Gator 45/70 and duane like this.
  2. Grand58742

    Grand58742 Monkey+++

    FYI, it's not the 6.8 SPC II, but rather a 6.8x51mm cartridge

    What We Know About the Army's New 'Bullets'

    Seems like this idea comes up every so often and eventually fades away because of the cost and logistics of doing said program in the "Big Army." Let's face it, SOCOM is going to get what SOCOM wants (rightfully so) when it comes to small arms and unique rounds. They have unique mission requirements that the "traditional" calibers don't fit into sometimes and use what works for the situation. That's why they adopt things like this:

    BREAKING: SOCOM Testing SIG Beltfed - MG 338 -

    I doubt the "Big Army" and, eventually, the USMC, USAF, USN and <chuckle> Space Force is ever going to transition over to .338 Norma as a general issue round in machine guns. Nor do I think they will ever transition to a 6.8 general purpose round unless every service transitions at the same time (or a scheduled phased approach) to the new system and round. The idea comes up every few years and eventually the technical hurdles of making a polymer cased round remind them they can't make it work before continuing with the 5.56 and 7.62. Such ideas and testing of plastic/polymer/caseless rounds have been around since the early 80s. There is a reason brass is still used. Because it's cheap, it's effective and most importantly, it works. I doubt you're going to see stainless steel either as that cost would be significant. They might introduce a 6.8 round and try to get it accepted, but I'd bet pennies to dollars it'll be brass cased from the start.

    I'm not sure Congress will appropriate the funds necessary for such a round as well as complicating the logistics system with one service being issued one round while other services are issued another. One good thing about commonality is the fact a Marine, Soldier, Airman or Sailor can utilize any other services' logistics supply areas to load up. If the mainstream Army makes a change, I'd tend to think the other services won't be far behind as you can't have the largest Service component using weapons that are incompatible with the other four traditional services.
    wideym and HK_User like this.
  3. HK_User

    HK_User A Productive Monkey is a Happy Monkey

  4. Grand58742

    Grand58742 Monkey+++

    Perhaps in the fact these programs always seem to fail over the long run. I've just seen PEO Soldier waste a lot of money over the years in programs that just didn't pan out. Remember when they wasted a whole hoop of money on a "replacement" for the M16 mag when commercially viable platforms (Magpul and Lancer stand out) were available? Only to end up replacing the follower and spring in the traditional mags. Or the competition to replace the M4 where they did everything they could in a last ditch effort to get the XM8 adopted only to cheat on the test results and ended up making changes to the M4 and continued with that platform.

    Regardless, the thread title is inaccurate. It's not the 6.8 SPC II round being considered as noted in my first link.
    wideym and HK_User like this.
  5. Gator 45/70

    Gator 45/70 Monkey+++

    Good,Hopefully 556 and 7.62x51 will be dumped on the open market for us peasants?
    techsar, Dont and HK_User like this.
  6. HK_User

    HK_User A Productive Monkey is a Happy Monkey

    Army's new 6.8 x 51 Sherwood round.
    Details on the 6.8mm Switch

    In a Prototype Opportunity Notice posted on Fed Biz Opps, U.S. Army Contracting Command calls for “two weapon variants and a common cartridge for both weapons, utilizing Government provided 6.8 millimeter projectiles.”

    Again, those two variants apply to both replacements in the ongoing NGSW program. The first replacement is the NGSW-Rifle (NGSW-R), which will succeed the current M4/M4A1 Carbine.

    The second variant refers to the NGSW-Automatic Rifle (NGSAR), a replacement for the M249 Squad Automatic Weapon (SAW) in the Automatic Rifleman Role in Brigade Combat Teams (BCT).

    This is a change from the initial plan, which, according to the Army Times, “was to first develop the NGSAR and then allow its advancements to inform the development of the M4 replacement, the NGSW-R.”

    Posted on Oct. 4, the PON notes a 27-month development period, suggesting a winner could be selected at some point in 2021.
    Why 6.8mm?

    Various reports state the U.S. Army had been looking for an “intermediate caliber” in between the 5.56mm and 7.62mm.

    Ultimately, the decision comes down to effectiveness in the field.

    “We’re looking to reach out around 600 meters and have lethal effects even if the target is protected by body armor,” Col. Geoffrey A. Norman, force development division chief at Army HQ, told Task & Purpose in May 2017. “We need to have lethal effects against protected targets and we need to have requirements for long-range lethality in places like Afghanistan, where you’re fighting from mountaintop to mountaintop over extended ranges.”
    NGSAR Candidates Confirmed

    The U.S. Army confirmed in July that five companies have already been selected to produce six prototypes for the NGSAR program.

    The companies include SIG Sauer, FN America, Textron Systems, General Dynamics and PCP Tactical. FN is submitting two variants.
    Last edited: May 16, 2020
    wideym likes this.
  7. Bandit99

    Bandit99 Monkey+++ Site Supporter+

    Yeah...there is so much political in-fighting within the DoD and their Military Industrial Complex that who knows what will happen - probably nothing!

    I do think that it will be SOCOM that will finally break the ice and be instrumental in getting a new firearm into the main stream military. It makes sense since they are much smaller while their budget is much larger in comparison to their size so they could indeed obtain, evaluate and even field a weapon and see if it works operationally before Big Army could even write the Requirement document for one. And, more importantly, no one in Big Army would contest their decision so it cuts out a lot of the in-fighting BS - I mean - what are they going to say, "Well, it might be good enough for our Special Forces Warriors but not good enough for 1st ID or 10th Mountain"...I don't think so.

    So, the fact that SOCOM has the ball on this and is moving it forward gives me hope...

    EDIT: One last thing, for my 2-bits, I hope they go to a Travor type design but with a better round. I recently held a 18-inch Travor and was very impressed with how it handled and balanced given an 18-inch in such a short package. I am concerned with clearing a FTF round given that bullpup design...that I need to look into more before I am convinced but...pretty nice.
    Last edited: May 16, 2020
    HK_User likes this.
  8. DKR

    DKR Raconteur of the first stripe

    Ah, yes. The military-industrial complex must be fed - with tax dollars....

    the .mil is still playing around with the 7.62 NATO even this far on
    7.62×51mm NATO - Wikipedia
    HK_User and Dont like this.
  9. hot diggity

    hot diggity Monkey+++ Site Supporter+++

    Brilliant! This will probably go about as well as the MEU(SOC) .45. Keep switching up ammo and firearms and eventually we'll have something that works great that we can't feed. Or in the case of the new pistols, a perfect firearm that gets "improvements" added until it won't function.

    ...and the solution will be to throw our money at it until it's fixed.
    Oddcaliber, Gator 45/70 and HK_User like this.
  10. Grand58742

    Grand58742 Monkey+++

    SOCOM has been issuing and using "non-standard" weapons for a long time. The SCAR which was thought to eventually replace the M16 FOW was used and issued first in SOCOM. There were reports of certain units using the 6.8 SPC that never made it "big time" in the Big Army. They were using Glocks before any new trials for the M9 replacement.

    There have been a few weapons that have made the "jump" from SpecOps to a more general issue even as a limited purpose. The M14/XM21 series was considered obsolete until it was issued out again as a DMR to conventional units but had been used for years in Special Forces. So there are some weapons that end up coming over from the dark side.

    Also, FYI, one of the potential replacements for the M16 FOW is a bullpup.

    These are General Dynamics’ NGSW contenders — and it’s a bunch of bullpup!
    HK_User and Gator 45/70 like this.
  11. oil pan 4

    oil pan 4 Monkey+++

    I don't understand the point of 338 and long range at all. The BC sucks and the projectile bleeds velocity like crazy.
    If you want to pop a bear or moose at under 200 yards it's great.
    Gator 45/70 likes this.
  12. DKR

    DKR Raconteur of the first stripe

    I'd rather have this
    if the IDF thinks its all that, who am I to argue?
    3M-TA3 and Gator 45/70 like this.
  13. techsar

    techsar Monkey+++

    Nothing says stupid like putting the chamber right next to your face...what could possibly go wrong? It's not like the weapon was built by the lowest bidder...
    ...oh yeah, it was....
  14. HK_User

    HK_User A Productive Monkey is a Happy Monkey

    The reason I like a non direct impingement especially with a can.
    Gator 45/70 likes this.
  15. Bandit99

    Bandit99 Monkey+++ Site Supporter+

    Yep! I believe that is the Travor x95 which is the firearm I was talking about, Israel has gone to this as their standard issued weapon. I think the 18-inch barrel version is about 28 inches overall length. I was really surprised how balanced it was...looking to test fire one as soon as I can. Unfortunately, it is made only in 5.56 and .300BLK and I would prefer something like 6.8 or 7.62.
    HK_User and Gator 45/70 like this.
  16. Bandit99

    Bandit99 Monkey+++ Site Supporter+

    Oh yes, I know SOCOM has been using what they determined they need, not what is simply issued for quite a while. I believe one of the Ranger Battalions were issued the SCAR and I thought that would give SCAR the leg-up in becoming accepted. I guess we'll see when they finally get down to determining the next generation military firearm. I looked at a SCAR but price and the fact that at the time one could only use their magazines (this might have changed now) sort of put me off of it. The .45 also is an example of SOCOM using what they want as some units/personnel carry it still. Interesting about GD's submission...Thanks!
    HK_User and Gator 45/70 like this.
  17. Grand58742

    Grand58742 Monkey+++

    Yes, the SCAR-17 still uses proprietary mags that are extremely pricey.

    There are some aftermarket options now though. But price and mags was why I didn't pick one up a long time ago.
    HK_User and Gator 45/70 like this.
  18. Bandit99

    Bandit99 Monkey+++ Site Supporter+

    Yes, me too, that's the exact same reasons I didn't purchase one. I bought a PWS instead made right here in Idaho, pretty happy with it all-in-all.
    HK_User and Gator 45/70 like this.
  19. 3M-TA3

    3M-TA3 Cold Wet Monkey Site Supporter++

    The 338 referenced above is the 338 Norma Magnum. It is similar to the 338 Lapua Magnum. The 300 SMK has a BC of .768. It's considered effective to 3,000 yards.

    Bandit99, Gator 45/70 and HK_User like this.
survivalmonkey SSL seal        survivalmonkey.com warrant canary