A tale of self defence

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by monkeyman, Oct 9, 2006.

  1. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    I couldnt decide where this would go best so I decided to put it here and if needed it can be moved but found it on another site I frequent and thought it was a good enouph read to repost here.

    A guy and his lady friend are walking down a street after eating a nice steak dinner on Friday night. The area is busy and the only parking available was a nice walk away, not a problem on a beautiful October night.

    So the guy, who has had a lot of firearms courses notices a van slowly driving the other direction on the street. The guy notices the deep gurgling sound of the exhaust, but really doesn't think much of it. Then he notices a couple of thugs crossing the street; said GTer is uncomfortable because he and his lady friend seemed to get too much attention from the guys crossing the street. One of those "it just doesn't feel right" type of things.

    So the couple continue walking toward the parking garage, when the GTer notices the gurgling sound of that van slowly passing by them. Then the GTer, who regularly uses windows to watch his 6, notices the two thugs that crossed the street coming up behind them. One of the thugs is clearly holding his right hand suspiciously around his belt buckle area. Then said GTer notices the van stopped on the side of the street just ahead and the 2 thugs behind them are getting closer.

    GTer tells his lady friend that they are going to duck into any open business they see, but there were not any available. Just as they were coming up on the van, 2 ****-eaters jump out of the van and block the sidewalk. Gter draws his Kimber .45, and moves to engage the thugs 5 feet behind them; the intention was to go to low ready and size up the situation. The two from the van did not appear to be armed and one behind them was already spotted as armed.

    So GTer turns and starts to shout at the two thugs on foot when the armed one begins to pull a revolver (SW .38 special). GTer, had the jump because the thugs in the rear did not see him remove his pistol from his daytimer style carry (they had been where alcohol was sold, but he did not drink).

    The GTer always, always, always shoots failure drill at the range and trains at least twice a month.

    As the BG #1 pulls the pistol, the GTer puts two rounds COM and moves up and puts one in the eye area. There was absolutely no reaction to the chest shots in the BG. The second thug turns to his falling comrade and tries to get his pistol, as GTer puts 2 slugs in his COM and one in the side of the head, GTer didn't know he hit BG #2 with the first 2 rounds. The second thug didn't have time to get turned around to face GTer, and didn't go down from the two to the chest, so said GTer puts one is the side of his head. Both third shots, at 5 feet, were very messy. Luckily for GTer, the second thug did get his hands on the pistol (a fact that would greatly help him in the future). So after the two in the rear were neutralized, GTer turned to check on the two from the van who had started moving his way. When GTer turned to engage them, gun at low ready, they turned and ran to the van got in and the van sped off.

    The thugs were linked to other rapes and 2 abductions of similar method, and had sheets as long as your arm. (funny how that wasn't admissable in court) The thugs from the van looked more pissed than scared, and GTer would encounter them later in life. Turns out they were members of the Gangsta Disciples. The Gangsta's don't take lightly to seeing their bro.s being shot down in the street.

    The aftermath: Said GTer was charged with manslaughter (the jury was given other options too) and was found not guilty by a jury of his peers. Deliberations took less than 3 hours. Some of the city council PERSONS believed that failure drill represented too much force and GTer should have not made the last shot on the guys. Of course, if he had not made the third shots in the failure drill, the thugs would be alive today. So city council PERSON, pressures the DA and viola, the decision is made to charge him.

    The cost to GTer to stay out of prison was $18,000+. That works out to be $3k per shot, or $9k per bad guy.

    The situation doesn't often end as well in his dreams, as it did in real time, but he never can quite get it behind him. He carries a strange sense of guilt.

    The girlfriend that GTer was trying to protect, broke up with him 3 weeks later. She just never could get over it and could not understand the violent nature of his counterattack. She dumped him, which broke his heart, but she was a very good witness for his defense, and for that he is eternally grateful.

    The follow up encounters (turns out during a trial, it isn't hard to get the home address of the defendant) with the Gangsta Disciples were a little better; and no charges were placed in those instances.

    Sorry if GTer wasn't armed with and AK, but then they would never have picked us to attack.

    The morals of the story: Live with what happened, or with what may have happened- his girlfriend being abducted..... It is better to be tried by 12.... When the SHTF, you fall back on your training in automatic mode. So train well and often.


    I didn't mean to hijack this thread, but greg brought it up. I started out telling it in third person because I really don't want to sound like I am proud of it or bragging and I don't mean to be. I did what I had to do and was vindicated.

    Yes it did happen. October 1998. The whole thing exhausted a lot of my savings, and some credit card debt that has since been paid for. The PD Commander on the scene allowed me to go home that night and to come in the following week with a lawyer to make a statement. Everything was clear and obvious to them that night, some officers even commended me.

    My initial intentions were to confront them while in the low ready, and hopefully shout them off. As I turned around, the guy had his hand on his gun and was pulling it. I am sure that if he had seen my gun sooner, he would have it pointed at me. And there is the possibility that he drew because he saw mine, but had he stuck his hands up or ran off, I would not have shot. That and their priors convinced the PD that I had acted properly. There were 3 witnesses approaching from behind the van ****-eaters that saw what the van did, and the whole thing. They told the police that night, I had to do it. When they blocked us in, I had no choice but to act.

    I was handcuffed and locked in a patrol car for a while, where I puked up that fine steak I had just eaten. Odd feeling when it is over.

    The DA prosecuted under political pressure. I did not spend any time in jail, because it was only after the political pressure did the DA decide to prosecute. I surrendered and had bail arranged before we went in. The PD were really nice to me, and they even indicated they thought I was getting a ****ty deal. The Assistant DA that handled the case did not seem to be too interested in getting a conviction. The investigating officers were better witnesses for me than the state. She (assistant DA) allowed my lawyer to seat my dream jury (some code words there) and she let him get some stuff out. At one time my attorney indicated that she wasn't pushing it because of the way she conducted herself.

    Girlfriend: Leslie was a nurse and one of those "I could never hurt anyone" types; I am a nurse and we heal...blah blah blah. Another long story. She did not know I was armed that night, or most nights we were together. I found out early that she didn't warm up to guns, so I didn't push it. No huge loss, the timing is what hurt. With all else going on, the last thing I needed was her breaking up. It was not until the trial that I really knew what she would do on the stand. What she did on the stand was enough to settle it for me. I hold no grudges against her, never did. But I won't date another nurse.

    As far as the terminal ballistics of the .45. In classes my failure drill from concealed holster generally run in the 1.5 to 2 second area. I doubt any handgun caliber will create adequate results in less than two seconds. I just opened up like I had trained to do. I was going with the 3rd shot, unless the guy was on the ground out of it. When I say there was no reaction to the first two rounds, I meant his head was still where I expected it to be. I never have planned to stop and fully asses the vital signs of an attacker. My plan has always been to do the failure drill if the pumpkin was there and it was. It all happens so fast, you wouldn't believe it.

    Since I was innocent, I can still carry.

    As for the follow up visits from the Gangstas, I prefer not to get into that right now. Very long ugly stories. On 2 possibly 3 (the 3rd I spotted them and called the police and kept riding around the parking lot, the police came and ran them off so I don't know what their intentions were or if they were there to visit me) different occasions there were young gentlemen waiting for me when I got off work, once was an attempt to kick in my front door while I was home. I highly recommend the Remington 870.

    I moved after the initial incident, and the phone company messed up and my 'unlisted' number got listed. So I moved again. A Lt. with the gang squad said that after a while, the membership would turn over to the point they would forget about me. That officer was at my trial and alerted me to potential retribution. There were a Gangstas at my trial. Relatives of the deceased I guess. I currently live in another city with an unlisted number. It has been 4 years, so I hope the follow up visits will cease. Everyday when I step out to get in my vehicle, I stop and scan the parking lot real good. My experiences have served to give me an edge and to keep me on my toes, and to keep me awake at night. Better than the alternative.

    If I may offer one piece of advice to anyone who will listen:

    If you are ever involved in a shooting, resist all urges to look at the guy after he is down. Move out of the area, and don't ever look at them. You want to remember them as a threat, not as a corpse.

    Thanks for letting me get if off my chest.


    Just don't say a word after it happens. Tell the officers you will cooperate, but you are in no condition to make a statement. Every word you say will cost you money.

    If you are in the right, and it was a good shoot, you won't have much of an attorney fee. Just for one to meet with you and go in to make a statement. Your range will probably know a good lawyer for this purpose.

    I would be willing to be most pro gun lawyers will allow you to pay as you can.

    My problems came from politics. Basically, a democrat council woman did not like the idea of me engaging her constituents. Other than that, the PD would not have recommended charges. I thought I was free and clear until an investigator called me and told me what was going on. He suggested I retain a lawyer and to give him, the officer, the lawyers name so we could arrange a time for me to come in and surrender myself. That made it a lot smoother.

    Cooperate with the PD as much as possible. If it is obvious your shooting was just, they won't push you for any answers. In fact, they may even suggest that you not say anything without a lawyer present.

    The officers on the beat sees what happens to victims and are usually glad when the intended victim gets the upper hand.
  2. E.L.

    E.L. Moderator of Lead Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Wow. What a story.
  3. Quigley_Sharps

    Quigley_Sharps The Badministrator Administrator Founding Member

    Yes it is a good story, I would like to know which city this was in.
  4. kckndrgn

    kckndrgn Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    If this is the same story that I read on GT, then it was Membabwei, er Memphis, TN.

  5. Valkman

    Valkman Knifemaker Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    He's lucky. He should not have faced any charges but he could've lost way more than that starting with house and job. As to the GF, good riddance and he found out BEFORE marrying her how she was. How happy would she be if she'd of been raped/killed?

    Don't know about that, the best guy here has a $15k retainer. You have to know that shooting can cost you everything, and that's why people with money don't actually "own" anything. They can't sue you for anything if they can't find it.

    He doesn't mention a civil suit, and that's as big a worry as the criminal part. Hard to believe he's not being sued.
  6. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Yeah I believe it was originaly posted on GT by one of their members, I read it on www.missouricarry.com where it had been reposted.

    We are supposed to get a castle doctrine law here in MO in the next year or so, or at least try, and Im REALY hopeing we get it and that it is similar to the one FL has where it includes protection from any and all civil suits for a defensive shooting. I would realy love to see us get one of the parts that was trimmed from theirs before being passed that would have made it so that if you were arrested for a good shoot the cops had to pay you for any expenses +, if the DA filed charges and it was determined to be self defense by a jurry then they had to pay all of your leagle fees plus expenses encoured such as missed work and such or may have even been double I dont recall for sure. With a law like that then it at least makes sure that if its a clear cut self defense shooting you dont have to defend your self a second (or third) time with the courts.
  7. jim

    jim Monkey+++ Founding Member


    Sure sorry that you had to go through this. I worry about being ruined financially because of a justified shooting. I carry sucker money to give them so I can have some sort of comeback in proving I tried my best to avoid the confrontation. That wouldn't have worked in your situation though.

    I've heard plenty of nurses come back with that "I'am a healer" crap. I used to know a paramedic that carried a cocked and locked 1911 in his bag, and wasn't afraid to use it. The world is full of idiots.

    Good luck
  8. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Jim, Fortunately the story was not my own, I simply read where a member at another board had posted it and found it to be a good example of a defensive shooting in detail from the victim/shooters point of view with good reminders of things that should be trained for and also considered in what may occure. Thanks for the concern however.
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