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about that Marine standing guard in front of his kid's school......

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by CATO, Dec 21, 2012.


  1. CATO

    CATO Monkey+++

    smear campaign or some guy living a delusion? You'd have to think someone might check your story out. But, regardless, now the seed is sown.........

    Marine standing guard at California school lied about his record | Newtown Connecticut School Shooting | Bradenton Herald

    Marine Corp Reservists says he violated protocol by wearing his fatigues and not his dress uniform in public. Facing $10,000 fine and 5 years in prison. Also getting a "dishonorable" stamp on his "honorable" discharge.
     
  2. tacmotusn

    tacmotusn Mosquito Sailor Site Supporter+

    I am not sure where you are going with this post. I am not sure (I will reread the entire article in a bit) this guy was even a reservist. What is clear is; the uniform he was wearing was not acceptable as per Marine protocal. He was misrepresenting his rank. He lied about his service deployments. I have no problem with a father offering to act as an unarmed guard (present law does not permit him to be armed that close to the school) as long as he registers with the school, they vet him through the police and Marines or appropriate branch of service. I would like to see schools no longer be declared gun free zones. Signs could be posted indicating that on school grounds only police, school security, and personnell identified and approved by the superintendent of schools will be allowed to carry weapons on school property. Arming properly trained teachers and administrators on school ground would not bother me in the least. This could be called the "Israeli solution", which has proven to be an effective deterent to school mass shootings.
    .
    To add, it seems the only mention of him being a Marine reservist, is stated hand in hand with him representing himself as a sargent which he was not. It appears he served only 9 months and was discharged. Most of these type of honorable discharges are done for some negative reason at the convienence of that particular branch of service under an administrative action (non-disiplinary) to speed the discharge. They are next to impossible to fight. It's a situation where the service decides they will just terminate their contract with the individual. The Navy does this to get rid of its dopers who pop positive on pee tests quick and easy.
     
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  3. tulianr

    tulianr Don Quixote de la Monkey

    I've read a couple of these articles, about two different Marines, and the individuals strike me as grandstanding. An unarmed Marine is not security, he is a target. While the intention of these individuals may be honorable, or not, their actions are ineffective; and could actually attract violence to the particular school at which they have stationed themselves. They could be more effective by lobbying their local and State officials to agree to posting an actual armed security guard, private or police, at each of our schools; or, at the very least, allowing vetted teachers and administrators to be armed.
     
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  4. Tikka

    Tikka Monkey+++

    As a Veteran, he should have known the rules.

    They are dead set and determined to continue to guard the malls with guns and our children with signs.
     
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  5. Pyrrhus

    Pyrrhus Monkey++

    Getting out that fast means one of two things: 1. Drug pop or 2. Failure to adapt. Given that he was a reservist, he almost certainly popped, since there really isn't that much to which one must adapt. I'd be interested to know what his MOS was. Back in the day, it took me around 11 months to go through Boot Camp (3 months), MCT (~3 weeks?), and MOS school (~7 months?). I'm trying to dredge dates from 13.5 years ago, so I might be a little off, but that's pretty close.

    And yes, he should know better than to wear utilities. Service Bravos would have been a much better choice.
     
  6. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    Civvies would have been better, with a CCW and concealed 45 or equal. Methinks he was seeking the attention he wasn't getting somewhere else.
     
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  7. tacmotusn

    tacmotusn Mosquito Sailor Site Supporter+

    I would like to further address the security issue. A number of economical adaptations at the prime entrance point and all others could easily be installed as a major deterant as well. For example; a complete lockdown and alarming of all exterior doors except from inside to outside egress (alarm would sound) in this case unless it was shutdown for leaving the school. Entry at start of school monitored by a facilty member with a radio. An additional facilty member with access to alarms would be in a position to observe this outside at fenceline monitor. If both front and rear entrances were used for this you would have to double down with the radios/monitors/observers. Ditto on all this at end of school day. During school hours all doors would be locked down except for exit egress which would trip the alarms. Doors throughout the school should be of the solid heavy duty type or even steel and lockable, and not of a one key opens all type. These should be high security type keys/locks clearly identified as school district keys not to be duplicated. In lieu of this all HD doors, opening in, and securable from the inside (deadbolts and NY style Security Bars would suffice). Use of multiple security cameras and microphones in strategic locations would also be desireable. A heavy duty Chainlink fully enclosed Sally Port could be used to control entrance at one door to administrative offices from outside. Cameras, intercom speaker, electronic activated doors, and a bank style night depost drop box could be used to convey ID to the admin offices. In a sally port only one door can be opened at a time, and they automatically lock when closed. The person in the sally port would be locked in when communicating with admin. If anything seemed hinky with the individual in the sally port, they could be kept detained until LEO's arrived. It would be desireable that school admin and actual teaching areas be isolated or alarmed and or electronic lockable. Most schools have fire doors, many of them automatic in nature. These still allow egress routes open, but are meant to prevent spread of fire. If due to observation, an intruder could be identified, and location of same reported to admin, the intruder could be isolated from the bulk of the school by engaging one or more of these fire doors. I have serious doubts that all teachers and adminstrators are rabid bleeding heart antigun liberals. A private polling could be made with something like a locked suggestion box to see if there were any volunteers for the security monitoring/observation posts as well as possible vetting, training and concealed carry arming. Some economic bonus could be assigned to these positions. Additionally these ccw armed teachers could be assigned rooms for teaching in such a manner that all areas of the school were covered as well as having a room and teacher who was not ccw armed nearby who could cover and combine lockdown of those two classrooms as one allowing the armed ccw freedom to respond to the threat if they so desired. Some might choose to only be defensive instead of aggressively offensive. Their choice as long as admin knew their wishes.
    .
    Yes I know I have not addressed present laws and states which deny teachers to be armed. This is something that needs to be addressed on a local and state level. Obviously this is not going to occur in NYC or Chitago. I worked in Security in the Military for many years and have also been to Irael and seen firsthand how they do things there. These are just some ideas I think have merit. Others input is welcomed. I am not looking to start or have a major argument with anyone. I am only suggesting some ideas on my mind.
     
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  8. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    There would have to be a way to make a lot of those ideas, all good, less obtrusive. Less like a prison, so to say. Your average architect would not be able to do it, but a good one might find a way to implement most, if not all, those means and methods. I have to say that those ideas might all be implemented at large schools, but quite a number of them would be difficult at best in small schools.
     
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  9. tacmotusn

    tacmotusn Mosquito Sailor Site Supporter+

    I am used to big schools. Good point with regard to smaller schools. For smaller schools I would suggest an 8 to 10 foot chainlink fence all the way around. 2 security personnel could be placed in observation kiosks with closed circuit tv of other kiosk and guard, they would have direct voice coms as well. Placed on opposite corners of the small school near the corners of the fence, but inside, they could control entrance, as well as be observed by the other guard. Each also could observe 2 sides of the school from corner to corner as well as more than 50% of the fence. I don't see any gaps in this to speak of. It could be upgraded with a sally port enclosure in the corner closest to the entrance point as well.
     
  10. Pyrrhus

    Pyrrhus Monkey++

    As if there is an equal to .45 ACP.

    Oh crap, here we go again...
     
    oldawg likes this.
  11. kellory

    kellory An unemployed Jester, is nobody's fool. Banned

    [quote="tacmotusn,
    .
    tacmotusn, let me preface this by saying I am a controlled access tech. That means part of my job is keeping people out of places they shouldn't be. Short of bank vaults and airlocks, it is a fair bet we will install, build, program and repair it.
    "For example; a complete lockdown and alarming of all exterior doors except from inside to outside egress (alarm would sound) in this case unless it was shutdown for leaving the school." This is already done in Ohio (here) no alarms though, because they interfere with classes. Entry is through front doors only,(after general entry by students) and keyed access from staff.
    "Entry at start of school monitored by a facilty member with a radio. An additional facilty member with access to alarms would be in a position to observe this outside at fenceline monitor." Radios are the norm between office, janitorial, maintenance, and deliveries. And web-based cameras would be better. They are small, get much better video, cheap, and record directly to a hard drive, on or off site, and can be accessed in real time, if you have the right web address. We have them on our business building.
    " Doors throughout the school should be of the solid heavy duty type or even steel and lockable, and not of a one key opens all type. These should be high security type keys/locks clearly identified as school district keys not to be duplicated. " This is the standard now. keys are in a "Hierarchy", Each teacher can open only his/her own class room, staff lounge, supply closet. Janitorial, and maintenance, have access to most, but not all, Principle's keys open all, ect. there are even set-ups where use of a master key locks all locks to only that key. We must know how these are to be used, before we install all the lock cylinders. And the school system supplies the keys they want used. they are restricted even from us. (special cylinders and keys, make keyed access very hard to beat.)
    "doors, opening in, and securable from the inside (deadbolts and NY style Security Bars would suffice)" great idea, but not allowed, fire code will not allow doors to open inward, due to the press of bodies during an emergency/ panic. My Sister has a Fox lock bar for her New York house. They do NOT budge once set in their floor socket, and lodged under the knob. But, they CAN be shot out of the way if known.
    " A heavy duty Chainlink fully enclosed Sally Port could be used to control entrance at one door to administrative offices from outside. Cameras, intercom speaker, electronic activated doors, and a bank style night depost drop box could be used to convey ID to the admin offices. In a sally port only one door can be opened at a time, and they automatically lock when closed. The person in the sally port would be locked in when communicating with admin. If anything seemed hinky with the individual in the sally port, they could be kept detained until LEO's arrived." What you are describing is not a Sally Port, but a Deadman Trap, and it can be done much better with solid cinder blocks, security doors and an interlock and exterior Maglocks controlled by the receptionist. combined with a security pass-through for paper work, packages, and ID, it would require explosives to breach. A Sally Post in common usage, is a door, within another door, like a man door in an overhead door. Medieval usage was a hidden/ heavily armored door for entry or egress to allow a small force to exit for a flanking action on an attacking force, or the controlled entry of a returning force without notice. It was always quite small, to prevent it being forced, and exploited, by the enemy. one or two fighters could defend a sally port against all comers, until the bodies plugged the hole.
    "Most schools have fire doors, many of them automatic in nature. These still allow egress routes open, but are meant to prevent spread of fire. If due to observation, an intruder could be identified, and location of same reported to admin, the intruder could be isolated from the bulk of the school by engaging one or more of these fire doors." This will not work. Fire doors are designed to stop air flow, not people. They are specifically made to drop slowly for safety reasons, and work by losing a small part of their spring tension. this allows them to drift down under gravity, and can still be raised quite easily by anyone who tries. They do not and can not lock down. They CAN be triggered by automatics, but work by failsafes in the form of a slug that melts at a certain temp. allowing a lever to drop, this releases most of one turn on the spring. Gravity does the rest within roughly 9 seconds.
    " I have serious doubts that all teachers and adminstrators are rabid bleeding heart antigun liberals. A private polling could be made with something like a locked suggestion box to see if there were any volunteers for the security monitoring/observation posts as well as possible vetting, training and concealed carry arming. Some economic bonus could be assigned to these positions. Additionally these ccw armed teachers could be assigned rooms for teaching in such a manner that all areas of the school were covered as well as having a room and teacher who was not ccw armed nearby who could cover and combine lockdown of those two classrooms as one allowing the armed ccw freedom to respond to the threat if they so desired. Some might choose to only be defensive instead of aggressively offensive. Their choice as long as admin knew their wishes."
    Texas and I believe Utah, already allow CCW for teachers. Make it voluntary, and supersede the the Gun Free Zone,(add body armor) and I have teachers waiting in the wings to Join such a program. Oddly enough, ;) they're all hunters.
     
  12. tacmotusn

    tacmotusn Mosquito Sailor Site Supporter+

    You have to admit the egress of students or anyone else through doors locked from outside entrance, but open to exit is a significant weak link. I would think that security cameras and silent alarms to the admin offices could easily put and end to this weak link. I would also submit that a guard with a radio be constantly roving both inside and outside, and even the roof. Checking in on intervals not to exceed 15 minutes. I conceed my knowledge of firedoors was flawed as well as not knowing the law about doors opening into the classroom. My problem with doors opening out is the exposed hinges. In their place then I would suggest steel doors with steel door casings, double deadbolts, single throw from inside and security pins and recesses on hinge side door and casing to prevent pin removal door breech. Double deadbolts to be about 25 percent up and down from bottom and top. Call it what you like the sally port or whatever as I described was meant to be something that could be installed now not in major reconstruction or new construction. The biggest challenge would be the thru wall bank style night drop box. Also it alieviated the need for a bullet proof glass. I ain't trying to put money in your companys pocket. I am trying to accomplish an adequate security/defense situation as cheaply as possible that will work. My area of expertise was in nuclear weapons security and entrance and access control.
     
    kellory likes this.
  13. kellory

    kellory An unemployed Jester, is nobody's fool. Banned

    [quote="tacmotusn,
    "You have to admit the egress of students or anyone else through doors locked from outside entrance, but open to exit is a significant weak link." Yes, but required for safe exit during a fire. You can NOT lock people in. We ran into a problem with the design of a shopping mall. security gates could be dropped and auto locked by remote (much like what you want) but even burglars are not allowed to die by fire. there is an automatic release if the fire alarm goes off, AND a manual release lever on the inside above the lay in ceiling!
    " I would also submit that a guard with a radio be constantly roving both inside and outside, and even the roof. Checking in on intervals not to exceed 15 minutes." I am not a military man, but I am a hunter. NOTHING gives you away faster than movement. Let the cameras be in harms way, let them be remote controlled and of good quality, and have at least two rovers as a team inside the building, with a live active camera jockey with access to all communications, and radios for all. Rovers should NOT have keyed access to class rooms. (deadmen lose their keys all the time) Their keys should open all other doors. All doors should have maglocks installed and controlled from the camera jockey control room. (if the keys get loose, he can still lock off doors remotely.)
    " My problem with doors opening out is the exposed hinges. In their place then I would suggest steel doors with steel door casings, double deadbolts, single throw from inside and security pins and recesses on hinge side door and casing to prevent pin removal door breech. Double deadbolts to be about 25 percent up and down from bottom and top. " Don't worry about the exposed hinges. Unless they brought a cutting torch, or other cutting tools. Those hinges are ball bearing (lore smoothness and wear) oversized (for strength and long life) NRP (NON-REMOVABLE PIN) hinges. Once assembled, they can only be disassembled with the door open. Steel(fire rated) doors are the standard, and Jambs are poured full of mortar for fire protection. They are both fire rated by law.
    "Call it what you like the sally port or whatever as I described was meant to be something that could be installed now not in major reconstruction or new construction. The biggest challenge would be the thru wall bank style night drop box. Also it alieviated the need for a bullet proof glass." Chain link would be much faster, that is true, but while it looks good, it would not stop anyone with a gun. Shoot a couple of brackets, and a doorway is open (open-sesame!) that would take seconds only. shooting through, OR the THREAT of shooting through, would have your average receptionist pushing the open button (don't shoot me!) Bullet proof glass looks friendlier, granted, but not needed. cameras could do the job of identification. There is no need for a face to face. Most security building we do work for, use cameras and deadman traps. ALL of the banks I know of do. Only one has a face to face through bullet proof glass, and that is AFTER the cameras. Then all packages pass through a 3x3x3 deadman trap, so even that can not provide access. (In fact, if we need a restroom on that site, we have to pass through that deadman trap, only one man is allowed at any time, and guns are drawn. They are serious.)
    " I ain't trying to put money in your companys pocket. I am trying to accomplish an adequate security/defense situation as cheaply as possible that will work." You get what you pay for. Do you want to slow them down for a minute or two, or hold them for the police? Do you want a "presence" of security to pursued them to look for a softer target, or a defense? It is the difference of a deadbolt lock on a hollowcore wooden door VS a safe-room. You get what you pay for, that is why it hasn't been done before this.
     
  14. tacmotusn

    tacmotusn Mosquito Sailor Site Supporter+

    As you said earlier we are not talking about or trying to build a vault, prison, or fortress. The idea is to make it difficult enough so as not to be totally obtrusive and 1984, but to protect the children. There are other weak links that are obvious to me, and I am sure others as well. The best defense and security action in this whole thing is the Israeli Solution such as in place in Texas and Utah. Tried and tested and effective.
    .
    Playing devils advocate, I know I can get in most any Office, house, store, school, without much to stop me. At most a lightweight aluminum extension ladder, a sledge hammer, and a firearm, would be all I would need to get in and do harm. Only armed opposition at entry (not in response) could stop me, and I am a fat old 62 yr old vet.
    .
    It is a problem that needs to be seriously discussed. Action needs to be taken, but gun control and gun free zones are not the answer, and never will be.
     
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  15. kellory

    kellory An unemployed Jester, is nobody's fool. Banned

    I am 49, hunter, no military service, with a construction background. A semi-auto, or pump 12ga, would have been just as deadly, and cops use them to breach doors for a reason. They work. I can reload as I walk, so capacity, doesn't matter much. The only thing other than a structural defense, to stop these kind of things, is a solid offense. CCW.
    (from a hunting site I belong to)
    " The day after the shooting in CT, Dr Ignatius Piazza made an offer to every school in this country.Dr Piazza runs a firearms training institute in Nevada. He is willing to give defensive firearm training... FOR FREE... to up to 3 people from every school that applies. There goes the liberal argument of "who pays for this?
    http://www.ignatius-piazza-front-sight. ... e-wake-up/"
     
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