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All it takes for evil to flourish is good men to stand by...

Discussion in 'Firearms' started by RightHand, Nov 12, 2011.

  1. RightHand

    RightHand Pioneer in a New World Moderator Founding Member

    All it takes for evil to flourish is good men to stand by and do nothing

    In today’s world, communication is immediate, opinions are public, and facts are often in short supply.

    The story of the Ciener arrest has been making it's way around cyber world, even here on SM in the thread titled ""Ciener in the joint......" With the comments I have read, I am dismayed to find so many here in our little community, seem to be what we all disdain, sheeple.

    I approach the subject of Mr. Ciener's arrest from several different perspectives - that of a member of the firearms community, as a manufacturer, as someone who deals with customers demands on a daily basis, as a participant in many, many firearms forums, and not least in importance, as someone who believes that a reputation and a livelihood can be easily destroyed by the internet chatter of those who seem to suspend thoughtful deliberation in favor of community acceptance.

    Fact 1, business is exactly that, business and the object of the business is to make money. It is not a hobby. Enjoying what we do is a bonus, not a business plan.

    Fact 2. As a business owner, I have the right to accept or reject clients/customers for no reason other than I don't want them as clients/customers; I have a right to fire anyone as a client if they are more trouble then they are worth (think ROI); and I have the right not to take a loss because of a client's ineptitude.

    I spend an inordinate amount of time online trying to protect Sadlak Industries from uninformed and incorrect statements made on gun forums about our products. There is one particular old gun mechanic from Texas who does not like me, does not like Sadlak products, and uses every opportunity and forum available to spread his opinion. It doesn't matter if he is right or wrong, just that he can be public, he has an audience.

    From what I have read, Mr. Ciener may not fit the model as a jovial, anything to make the customer happy kind of businessman, but he provides a product and service that is both legal and desired, has the skill to do this very well, and none of his "demands" are unreasonable.

    Aside from my association with Sadlak Industries, businesses call me in to clean up their messes, I think of it as being the garbage collector and I charge accordingly.

    I have clients from whom I will not accept a business or personal check, only cash or certified funds. I do not accept credit cards. If these terms are not acceptable, go to someone else. No harm, no foul.

    I am good at what I do and command a fair rate for the services I perform. If the customer thinks it is an unreasonable rate, go to someone else. No harm, no foul.

    Don't expect me to forgive the bill if you don't like the dinner - If they don't like the answers I give them, hire someone else next time. No harm, no foul.

    Just last week I thought of pinning all my client names to a dartboard to see who would get the call that I was dropping them from my client list. Fair to the one the dart hit, probably not in their view but more than reasonable in my view. When the customer is more trouble then they are worth to the business, or my piece of mind, I am not legally bound to work for them. This is the very freedom we all purport to cherish but then reject in practice.

    Do any of these business practices warrant arrest? Of course not. Autocratic maybe but not illegal.

    What in my mind seems to be true is that Mr. Ciener is an asset to the firearms community, a quirky, autocratic businessman, and law enforcement and the ATF have been after him for years but unable substantiate their cases so now the claim is unethical business practices. One of my mother's favorite sayings seems apt "there's more than one way to skin a cat."

    In the end, I will say what I tell my grandchildren - you don't have to agree with me, you don't even have to like what I have to say but you do have a responsibility to make sure the opinion you are voicing is your own and not simply one that would be agreeable to your friends.
    Conagher, VisuTrac, melbo and 13 others like this.
  2. Seacowboys

    Seacowboys Senior Member Founding Member

    That is a well thought out opinion, Rh. Remember the Zumbo fiasco; he was uninformed and shot his mouth off without thinking and it cost him damn near everything. It was only after Ted Nugent invited him to his Ranch and took him hunting with the evil black rifles, that Zumbo realized what a stupid mistake he had made and is now an executive in the Second Amendment Foundation, something that I am a Life Member of.
    Many of us are members of the 'Gun Culture" it is a way of life to us, not a hobby or a collection, or a need to be a badass; hell, someone called me a 'Mall Ninja" recently and I thought it was both funny and uninformed to the point of blatant ignorance, but didn't want to conflict someone's considered opinion. I got my first rifle on my forth birthday and shooting has been a family pass-time my whole life. i probably own enough firearms to qualify as an arsenal and certainly have many thousands of rounds of ammunition af many calibers. I also have a fairly extensive library of survival oriented books and .pdfs, enough supplies to allow my family and neighbors to survive natural disasters for weeks or even months off the grid, plenty of subversive literature like Unintended Consequences, the Poor Man's james Bond, The Anarchist Cookbook, volumes on fireworks manufacturing, and several taxed NFA weapons belonging to a Trust that I am executor of. i could be on the front page of any major news paper and get crucified by these same people because I collect firearms and shoot in at least seven different competitive sports including USPSA, IDPA, SASS, 3-Gun, Trap, Sporting Clays, and Steel Challenge.
    Tango3, STANGF150, Falcon15 and 3 others like this.
  3. Pax Mentis

    Pax Mentis Philosopher King Site Supporter

    I think what bothers me here is that so many of the gun community (which obviously overlaps the prepper community quite a bit...not sure I have ever met an anti-gun prepper) are so ready to immediately believe the worst about a member of that community because the government says so...

    I have just about quit gun forums because of the people there who are quickly judgemental and so quick to make statements about people with whom they disagree that they are "unfit" to carry a gun and should lose their "permit"...let's not head the same direction here...please.
  4. Falcon15

    Falcon15 Falco Peregrinus

    First, I wish to "say" - Hear, hear, RightHand. Truly well said, and appreciated from this person's point of view, whatever that may be worth.

    Pax, I could not have said that better myself.

    Pax, again, I agree wholeheartedly. I quit gun forums long ago. I read several, peruse several more, but do NOT participate for just that reason. I am currently a tactical handgun instructor and getting re-licensed as a CHL instructor in Texas. That does NOT make me special, just gives me a unique perspective.

    I can say, thankfully, that particular behavior has not reared it's ugly head here, yet. I think the general caliber of the regular members precludes this behavior. I cannot speak for any new members, but the "old guard" are above that.

    Again, RH, Sea, Pax, all well said, very good points. Hear, hear.
  5. goinpostal

    goinpostal Monkey+

    I didn't know anything about this guy until mentioned in this and the other thread. After a bit of googlefu, I would never buy nothing from the guy. Someone that takes your check, cashes it, and then never sends you what you paid for, is commiting mail fraud. That's not only unethical, it's a crime. How many peoples' complaints about a business does it take to disuade you from buying from someone you dont know? As I said, I don't really know enough to judge the man, but there is enough doubt that I would think long and hard before doing buisness with him.
  6. chelloveck

    chelloveck Diabolus Causidicus

    There are times when I feel it my duty to say.....

    what may be unpalatable if I feel that what needs to be said is done in good faith and not out of malice. If I am uncertain about the facts then I usually reserve my judgement until a sufficient weight of probative evidence is adduced upon which I can make an informed and reasoned assessment.

    Government agencies have learned, that if they can't get at a citizen in one way, they will skin their mark another way. The FBI got to Al Capone, not by convicting him on racketeering charges, but on tax evasion. I am not suggesting that the gentleman in question is a racketeer....but governmental agencies when they are on a mission to scew you over, will grasp at a littering offence if they can't get a conviction on anything else. Let the due processes of the law take their course, with the entitlement of presumption of innocence until proven guilty, and such protections as he is entitled to under the law.

    Cephus, RightHand, gran-free and 2 others like this.
  7. Seacowboys

    Seacowboys Senior Member Founding Member

    We're the Government; We're here to help you.
    Falcon15 likes this.
  8. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    (off topic but related)
    "Seacowboys": I really hope that "mall ninja" thing didn't comefrom a flippant comment I made elsewhere; It was most assuredly not directed at YOU personally: but referring to the generic 18 year old "video game tough guys"; I've been dealing with on another forum I will no longer contribute to.
    Pax bro':D
  9. Falcon15

    Falcon15 Falco Peregrinus

    The most terrifying words in the English (or any) language. Bar none.
    Cephus likes this.
  10. Seacowboys

    Seacowboys Senior Member Founding Member

    If we, as the members of the "Gun Culture" fail to stand behind our brothers and unite to join in the public lynching, then we truly have lost the battle. I first saw this trend on WarRifles with the Wall of Shame, and then later on AR15.com; I no longer participate in either of those forums, where before I was a financial contributor.
    When one of our members steps over the line into a grey area, I would remain silent rather than adding to the lynch-mob mentality that hurts the the rights of all that value our Freedoms. I place no faith in the ability of our press to offer an unbiased opinion or even to present the facts, or at least all of the facts.
    I recognize that many of our members only buy guns to be "tacti-cool" and have what they think they might require when Mad-Max builds Beyond Thunder-dome, I do not believe there is any hope for reprieve for those type folks, I do, however, believe that those of us that are legitimate members of the firearms culture can band together and put up a real front against those that jump on the crucifix wagon whenever one of our brothers or sisters get caught in the web of deceit that fosters public opinion and allows such atrocities against our very liberty to grow.
  11. RightHand

    RightHand Pioneer in a New World Moderator Founding Member

    Well said Seacowboys
  12. Cephus

    Cephus Monkey+++ Founding Member

    I stopped gun boards several years ago and more or less stopped all posting on the net because they all seemed to be on the PC kick that we should clean up all of the so called crooks in the gun world .Well they were mostly the ones that were in competition with each other and were all just bad mouthing one another to the point all gun people were picking sides of who was right and who was wrong ,I lost some so called good friends over it but I haven't lost who or what I am in my own eyes .
    To me that is more important than the fight .
    Thanks for a place were we can be ourselves and not conform to what others think is right !!
  13. melbo

    melbo Hunter Gatherer Administrator Founding Member

    Thank you Righthand.

    My comments are not directed towards anyone on this board, no matter what has been posted in the Ceiner thread. I'm speaking in general about my net wide observations and how we can better handle future events like this - at least on the Monkey.

    My larger concern is the lynch mob mentality that quickly forms based around internet hearsay. We can find a lot of negative things by Googling a name or a business but remember that it only takes a handful of dedicated individuals to spread negativity far and wide, even if not true.

    We should sit back and evaluate 'breaking' news when we see it before immediately jumping on the wagon that parrots and repeats claims and allegations with no first hand knowledge. This is why SM has generally not been a 'newshound' site and I've been thankful for it.

    I always try to remain impartial when evaluating events. Who stands to gain? Who might want to discredit? Who could take advantage of? What's the credibility of those bringing the complaint?

    Think of how easy it would be to publicly discredit many of us:
    "During the raid, authorities uncovered numerous assault weapons, thousands of rounds of ammunition (capable of penetrating the body armor commonly worn by police), a military field manual on Evasion and a large portable supply of food. Thanks to the pre-crime unit for foiling this planned domestic terrorist event before it occurred."​

    How do you defend against something like this? What do the people in your community think? Will you have your job next week? Does anyone care if it's not true? Can anyone hear the truth in a sea of lies?

    We members of the gun culture have watched our rights erode over the past 30+ years. We live 'one stroke of the pen' away from an outright ban on our firearms. If we stand apart, chuckling at others in our community who fall, we might one day wake up and realize that we are standing alone. How hard would it be for 100 members of DU/Brady/etc to blitz the internet with 'complaints' against _____________________? We have dangerous enemies who scour our message boards looking for every opportunity to disturb our order and divide/confuse us. Never underestimate our adversaries and the steps they will take to destroy us and our freedoms. Who was it that said "nothing political happens by accident"?

    Is it remotely possible that all 88 BBB claims against JAC were submitted by either anti-gunners or by rogue federal agents who want a chance to put a Class III manufacture in the hurt locker for a few weeks?

    I don't know if Ceiner took people's money without delivering the product or not - I was not there but it's 180 degrees opposite of my successful business transactions with the man... which is exactly why my initial comment in the Ceiner thread was only based on my personal experience. If he defrauded his customers, I'm sure it will come out in court and is not for me to judge before hand. I like to rest on the assumption that a US Citizen is innocent before such time as they are proven guilty.

    The viral possibilities of the internet work both ways and we need to choose carefully which situations we support and which ones we damn. Me, I'll stay in the middle until it's something that either directly affects me or that I have first hand knowledge of.

    Actually, the Ceiner case does affect me - I probably won't be able to purchase additional mags for my 22LR conversions in the near future - if ever.
    Tracy, VisuTrac, ghrit and 2 others like this.
  14. Seacowboys

    Seacowboys Senior Member Founding Member

    "Actually, the Ceiner case does affect me - I probably won't be able to purchase additional mags for my 22LR conversions in the near future - if ever."
    Black Dog Machine Works makes much better magazines that work just fine with the Ceiner Conversions.

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