An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power 3:00pm Friday, July 08, 2011 by Greg Ellifritz

Discussion in 'Firearms' started by john316, May 4, 2016.

  1. john316

    john316 Monkey+++

    arleigh, Yard Dart, Ganado and 3 others like this.
  2. AxesAreBetter

    AxesAreBetter Monkey+++

  3. Dont

    Dont Just another old gray Jarhead Monkey Site Supporter+++

    Very interesting and had some common sense in the study.. I'll stick with my .45 1911.. And the 12Ga. loaded with staggered bird shot, 00 buck, and slug's.. Oh, and the 270 and 300.. Oh crap! Have to learn to dive first.. But I have a nice hatchet that will ring every time I hit a piece of wood with it..
    oldawg and Yard Dart like this.
  4. jim2

    jim2 Monkey+++

    He makes some good points. I've always maintained that shot placement is king combined with at least a medium caliber pistol. I do in fact prefer something in .40+ caliber as they might help with some of the marginal hits I will probably make under those conditions. I too prefer a rifle or shotgun for this when available/applicable.
  5. Yard Dart

    Yard Dart Vigilant Monkey Moderator

    The reality of this data is important....practice, practice and more practice on making quality shot's that will incapacitate!!

    Pax Mentis, kellory and 3M-TA3 like this.
  6. marlas1too

    marlas1too Monkey+++

    lets see I have a or several 357/38 specials revolvers, several 1911 45acp,a few 44 magnums and even a few 22 semi auto s but i will never have a 9mm my carry is 357,45,or 44 as i want to stop someone with one round and stay down just MHO
  7. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart Snow Monkey Moderator

    If you hit them, with a 9MM, in the forehead, they will drop like a "Sack of Potatoes" It is ALWAYS, Shot Placement, over Caliber....
    arleigh, VisuTrac, AD1 and 2 others like this.
  8. kellory

    kellory An unemployed Jester, is nobody's fool. Banned

    Shoot what gun you are most comfortable and accurate with, with less emphasis on bullet size. No need for a hand cannon if it is a tack driver.
    arleigh and AxesAreBetter like this.
  9. Kingfish

    Kingfish Self Reliant

    I wish I was a good enough shot to make head shots on a charging bad guy. Im pretty good at snap shooting chest shots and hitting a moving target but the head is just so small and the brain is only about 25% of that meaning not only do I have to hit the head but the top 25% from eye level up. I dont consider our Ruger sr-22 pistols to be very good stoppers.
    AxesAreBetter, Ganado and Yard Dart like this.
  10. Yard Dart

    Yard Dart Vigilant Monkey Moderator

    There is a reason that LEO and military training emphasizes on shooting center mass..... you have the best opportunity to hit your target in the torso. Anything above and beyond that goal is outside of normal practices. Advanced shooting for head shot's is just that, advanced, and not part of normal day to day defensive shooting.

    The yahoo's that declare the cop should have shot the perp in the leg, have no idea on how low a percentage shot that is, under the stress of situational shooting. The attached study in this thread, reflects that well.....
  11. Legion489

    Legion489 Rev. 2:19 Banned

    Always loved the "no need to shoot a cannon if you shoot a tack driver" quotes. Of course they are always posted by people who have never been shot or shot at, never seen combat or been in a life or death fight, or what MIGHT have been one with serious combatants. Go out in the REAL world a few time and get into a few situations with your pea shooter and come back and tell me about it. You ain't that good, I don't care what you say, and you can't always get what you want the way you want. Two facts of life. The ONLY two things that people who went and done ALL agree with when the SHTF is "I wish I had a bigger gun! I wish I had more ammo!" 'I wish I had a few more people with me!' runs a close third.
    arleigh and AxesAreBetter like this.
  12. kellory

    kellory An unemployed Jester, is nobody's fool. Banned

    Well you know what they say about assumptions. I am not military, that is true. but I have been in a firefight trading bullets with gang-bangers. With the same 38 caliber revolver I carry now.
    Sorry if my handgun is not up to your standards, but since that's the only handgun I currently own it'll have to do.
    I read through all the data provided, and it doesn't show very much variance depending on what type of bullet used. What it does show is that accuracy matters more than the size of the bullet.
    I've been trained since I was a child not to waste ammo, no need for second shot of the first ones fatal ( just damages more meat), only fire to kill, and to kill cleanly, so I hunt at ranges well less than the maximum the guns can handle, to ensure the one shot I take is an ethical sure kill shot. (I owe a clean quick death to the game).
    I am a good shot, as anyone who has ever hunted with me could tell you. But you could not know that. I seldom ever need more than one, unless I have more than one target. Assuming only military trained can shoot, could get you killed by a backwoods hunter with a squirrel rifle.
    I would LIKE a better gun, but that doesn't mean I NEED a better gun. I'm glad the data agrees with what I already know. (Shot placement matter more than the size of the hole , (at least in breaking off the attack. Not in the amount of damage done.)
    If you chose to argue with the data the man said "do your own survey"
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  13. AxesAreBetter

    AxesAreBetter Monkey+++

    I've been undergunned with a .30-06 (do you know how hard alligator hide is?!?) and overgunned with a's know how to play the odds that counts. Accuracy matters, but I do tend toward the largest caliber I can hit with. Experience has taught me that is the most I can rely on, and that everyone respects an ax.
  14. Kingfish

    Kingfish Self Reliant

    I think that the 45 and 44 magnum rounds are about the best standard stoppers. A 44 magnum 240 grain hollow point is one bad sum biotch. I would think that round would take the wind out of most sails . But that is a big handgun and the weight is a huge trade off. 38, 9mm, 10 mm, 40, etc etc etc. I sit back and watch the debates all the time on many many websites. None of the lesser cartridges match the .44 magnum. I guess we will keep debating the issue of 38 versus 9 versus 45 acp etc. Even the .22 is deadly . Mine is for getting back to my rifle or shotgun. Maybe keep some dudes head down while I back away and get to a better position. My eyesight is not very good on longer range pistol shots and with out some form of laser or optic I'm not going to be very good using a hand gun to stop anyone. My shotgun is a much better choice as are my rifles. If I carried concealed I would most likely opt for a pocket 9mm as they seem to get this round into a pretty small light package. But hey? I am again enjoying the debate. Proceed :)
    kellory likes this.
  15. Yard Dart

    Yard Dart Vigilant Monkey Moderator

    The ammo type is critical to the equation of stopping power..... ;)
    The ammo being produced today greatly improves performance over ball in the 9MM.
  16. UncleMorgan

    UncleMorgan I like peeling bananas and (occasionally) people.

    One thing that the study above kind of suggests is that one double-tap will usually get the job done.

    Bang-bang is better than bang.

    While it's always nice to be able to shoot someone in the left eye (so the pelt isn't damaged) most people just don't have that kind of shooting skill--especially when under pressure and when wounded.

    I'm aware that many Special Forces soldiers have ditched the 9mm entirely and gone back to the .45ACP because it apparently takes four 9mm in the chest at close range to stop one motivated Jihadi, but it only takes one .45.

    That's pretty much out of the horse's mouth, because my son was over there with them.

    There is one other thing about handgun caliber that doesn't show up in the hit statistics. That's the deterrence factor.

    When the bartender whips out a 12 ga. shotgun, racks a round and tells everybody to sit down and shut up, they usually do. It's a long-standing tradition.

    If the bartender whipped out a .22 Derringer instead, it's probable that no one would take him seriously at all.

    And it's the same on the streets. In the few cases where displaying a firearm before you pull the trigger is appropriate, whipping out something that's large enough for a Volkswagen to drive out of is a whole lot more intimidating than a .22 sissy-pistol.

    Either one can kill, but...

    "Tough guys" often assume a little gun won't kill (or even particularly hurt) them. No one makes that assumption with a .44 Magnum.

    I tend to be a little on the lazy side, myself. I don't want to have to pull a trigger at all. Ever. But if I have to, I also don't want to have to pull it twice.

    I'd much rather just pull it once, toss a horseshoe through the hole in the guy, and call it a day.
    oldawg, Yard Dart, Legion489 and 2 others like this.
  17. Legion489

    Legion489 Rev. 2:19 Banned

    UncleMorgan says
    How can this be?! What if it was a tack-driver?! You know, if he was shooting through the left eye?! You know he really doesn't need a second shot because he's been trained since he was a child not to waste ammo, so no need for second shot if the first ones fatal ( just damages more meat), only fire to kill, and to kill cleanly. Obviously you know nothing! HUMPHF!;):rolleyes:
    Last edited by a moderator: May 5, 2016
  18. kellory

    kellory An unemployed Jester, is nobody's fool. Banned

    @Legion489 , that top quote is not mine. Nor do I care what your opinion is. Since my experience was in defending my home, I will use any weapon at hand.
    I'm not bothered too much by the size of the hole, as long as the holes are in the right places. And since I don't intend to eat it later, the meat damage will not bother me a bit. (Ymmv)
  19. Legion489

    Legion489 Rev. 2:19 Banned

    Come on Kellory, get a grip. The first line was from Uncle Morgan's post just above mine, if you had bothered to read it instead of taking umbrage at every little thing I say. And I'm accused of trolling?

    Of course everyone has an opinion, but sometimes people want to attack someone for no reason other than they can and can get away with it, pulling posts and pushing people around. I find a good way to expose logical flaws is to take the logic to it's logical conclusion. A good way to expose foolishness is to take the foolishness to it's logical conclusion as well. What next? Obummer getting Leno fired because he made a joke about him? Oh, wait, that already happened!
  20. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    Does staff have to clean up this thread or can you guys settle down?
    VisuTrac likes this.
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