An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power 3:00pm Friday, July 08, 2011 by Greg Ellifritz

Discussion in 'Firearms' started by john316, May 4, 2016.


  1. kellory

    kellory An unemployed Jester, is nobody's fool. Banned

    Naw, let it stand as a reminder of how stupid it is to pine for the perfect weapon, instead of the one you have in hand.
    It doesn't matter how big the hole is, if you can't connect. So accuracy trumps hole size.
    I'm done here, may the farce be with you.
     
  2. Legion489

    Legion489 Rev. 2:19 Banned

    Kingfish, the .44 Mag is a great cartridge, but as you say, the guns are big and heavy, plus the recoil is a bit much (you said heavy, I said recoil a bit much. Don't want you to attack me for adding that last part as you didn't say that, I did). Even Elmer Kieth said in print he didn't like shooting full power .44 Mag loads very often. Who wrote UNREPENTANT SINNER? Can't think of his name. He liked the .44 Mag for game but not defense as the gun was too hard to control, especially for repeat shots. Even Dirty Harry used .44 Specials on the range.

    I find a big bullet making a big hole in a gun that is controllable (.45 ACP) is better than a big bullet making a big hole from an uncontrollable gun (short barreled .44 Mag, especially lightweight ones) even if the first bullet hits. Otherwise a .50 BMG handgun would be ideal. Want something more real world? .45-70 revolver of which several makes have been made. Apparently they didn't sell well to the pipsqueak shooters, even though they were reported as being accurate, as they are off the market now. If someone wants to claim that they carry a .25 ACP because they are going to shoot the attacker through the eye (actual quote of one fool I know, and every net loser) but when they hit the range they can't hit the head of the IPSC target at five feet with it, unhurried and in good light (again, actual case), well I have my doubts they are going to do it in darkness, under stress and in a hurry. Same with most other fools making wild eyed claims, when we hit the range neither, both the shooter and the claims, seems to stand up well under pressure.

    If someone wants to carry a .22 (I have) for defense, or a .50 BMG revolver (talk about big and uncontrollable! However since both you and the shootee are in no condition to continue, even if you miss, after one shot it doesn't really matter) personally I got no problem with that. As with all things in moderation, I prefer something in the middle, a .45 ACP over some pipsqueak cartridge or some huge uncontrollable cartridge, and the truth over lies or wild exaggerations and claims.

    So which cartridge is ideal in all cases? I don't know. I know I am still walking (well hobbling anyway) around so what I used worked, but ideal? Well that is another matter. As for the debate, like you said, "Proceed". Which I am taking as "Let the debate continue" or words to that effect.
     
  3. AxesAreBetter

    AxesAreBetter Monkey+++

    I think UNREPENTANT SINNER would look cool on a gun...but I think it would also give me issues with the law if I had to use it. Dang it.
     
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  4. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

  5. AxesAreBetter

    AxesAreBetter Monkey+++

    Plus .45-70 Derringers. Haha.

    Seriously, why does no one make quality double barreled hunting pistols any more? Is it the ammo crunch?
     
  6. arleigh

    arleigh Goophy monkey

    If you can't draw and fire from the hip with out hessitation, and hit tin cans at 30' your out of practice.
    If your taking time to aim your out of practice .
    Like pointing your finger you need to know where the bullet going instinctively .
     
  7. arleigh

    arleigh Goophy monkey

    This is one reason I practice with air guns ,it gives good instinctive trigger time and is cheaper to perform and quieter too.
     
  8. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    OK, cowboy. Only the pros do that and under tightly controlled conditions. Firing from the hip is a reactionary move, and at best ill advised. Better to anticipate the problem, sez me, that's what the pros actually do, get into a position, settle the mind, then on signal draw and fire. All the practice with that routine will not get you set for the Wally World parking lot assault.
     
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  9. arleigh

    arleigh Goophy monkey

    Actually with the sheriffs I had worked with the captain actually recommended this skill .
    And yes, it takes practice.
    The point is ,your not brandishing the weapon ,the idea is to draw and shoot in one movement .
    The competition for survival is a lot higher the more aggressive people become. the moment of hesitation can be one's last.
    I see people practicing at a range shooting paper targets and believe to them self that the bad guy is going to be standing there like that when in fact the only people that stand there like that are those that are unarmed and being held up .
    I train my students at an indoor range and use the motorized target to advance on them as they shoot and show them the difference.
    The target wags from side to side in the wind of the advance making it much more difficult but more realistic.
    The only thing far more realistic is training with airsoft guns, and dealing with bullets actually coming at you and have to deal with a closer taste of reality.
    Bad guys are not going to be standing waiting for you to shoot them while you are taking your stance and getting comfortable lining up your sights.
     
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  10. Kingfish

    Kingfish Self Reliant


    Yes I know they recoil like a beiotch . I almost impaled myself in the forehead with a Ruger Red Hawk once. I carry a .22 Because I can afford to shoot it a lot. I am not good with a hand gun. I am at the point where I can snap shoot a man target center mass and do a 10 round mag dump in about 2 seconds on that target . I can get all ten in the lungs and heart area. At 25 feet. Any longer Im starting to suck . I have blended bifocals and am not good with anything that has Iron sights. At 25 feet and in I am looking over the top of the sights and shooting instinctive. Even then Im all over the target right left low high grouping like 10 to 12 inches. Thats shooting fast and dumping the mag. If I take my time and Aim Im much better. I have no plan to use a handgun for defense just to get me to my main weapon if its not already in my hands. Someday maybe Ill go back to a real handgun and most likely it would be a .45 But I have to be able to afford the ammo and that is the only reason Im shooting a .22.

    Also , I have to say that if I dump 5 or 6 Velocitors into some perp. and some of them hit ribs going in??? Well , 1000 feet per second hollow points will expand nice. Just saying. My .22 is better than no gun in my hand. and if it buys me the time to get to my shotgun or my AR? IM IN THE GAME.
    If things go bump in the night here I carry my shotgun with 7 rounds and 7 more on the stock. My little .22 goes in my back pocket and a spare mag in the other pocket. thats 34 rounds 14 of which are Buckshot.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 6, 2016
  11. Legion489

    Legion489 Rev. 2:19 Banned

    PLEASE NOTE! The quote above is from KINGFISH. Of course everyone already knows who I am quoiting if they bothered to read this thread. Thank you.

    At the club I can start at the surrender (hands above shoulders) position with handgun (1911 in .45 ACP) in the holster and at the signal draw and get off seven aimed shots easily, and often eight rounds and some times reload in under three seconds (timed fire, three seconds start beep to finish beep). Of course that is strictly middle of the road, 12th or 13th out of 25 shooters, the better shooters can reload and get off a few more rounds.
     
  12. Kingfish

    Kingfish Self Reliant

    Well I didn't start with my hands in the air or actually timed it. I can dump a mag in about 2 seconds. I dont consider that fast.I saw Flannigan dump a shotgun in UNDER 2 seconds timed. 3 SECONDS WITH A RELOAD IS WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO BE ABLE TO DO.You can all see I have a long way to go to be proficient with a hand gun.

    I had the gun in my hand already on target. Im sure you can dump a 911 mag faster . So dont make fun of me :) I am not good with a pistol. I am practicing shooting fast (as fast as I can) and snap shooting ( SHOOTING WITHOUT AIMING) . I do Okay close at 20 to 25 feet. I can keep the rounds in the lungs and heart area. The SR-22 has very little recoil which is a plus. Im not aiming at all. Im looking over the top of the sights. A reload would take some real work for me. I would be lucky to reload in 20 seconds ha ha ha .
    here is what I call fast..



    I try and practice on multiple targets moving from one to the other. I dont have any way to use moving targets but that also plays into rifles and shooting them as well. I am trying to learn how to shoot instinctive or snap shoot meaning swing and squeeze with out aiming. But yes bad guys are not going to stand there and let you fill them with holes. I wish I had some kind of motorized set up for practicing.

    Back in the day I practiced shooting at running deer with rifle and Bow by stapling a balloon to a tire and having my buddy roll it down a hill. not only was the balloon moving right to left but also up and down. It simulates bounding.

    In Militia training we drilled on the 21 foot rule. Had a guy with a rubber knife and we all had our pistols unloaded and holstered. This guy was walking around with us the whole day during patrols and camp time . He would just come at you with no warning and you had to draw and simulate fire before he had you with the knife. We even knew he was there and he still got everyone in the group. I put a tree between me and him but he still got me before I got my pistol out. Real life training is hard to get unless you have access to a training course with all the whistles and bells.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 7, 2016
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  13. arleigh

    arleigh Goophy monkey

    That is the message I've been trying to get across.
     
  14. Kingfish

    Kingfish Self Reliant

    Yes that was tough to take and it made me rethink having a big bad pistol and spending hundreds of dollars on ammo. Instead I learned how to disarm an attacker with a knife and mess him up with a punch to the throat . After you disarm a knife attacker then you can take him out. To try and draw and shoot against one is almost impossible. Our main trainer was an Army staff sergeant and he got his pistol out and simulated a head shot on the dude. But he saw him coming in time and his training did him proud. The rest of us all failed.
     
  15. AxesAreBetter

    AxesAreBetter Monkey+++

    I'm hoping to get a dirk project I've been working on finished soon. I'm going to start packing that bad boy, and that would be my honest first response to a close range knife encounter.
     
  16. arleigh

    arleigh Goophy monkey

    Almost no one wins in a knife fight . you might be the last guy moving but you'll still bleed to death eventually .
     
  17. chimo

    chimo the few, the proud, the jarhead monkey crowd

    Actually it is ALWAYS the largest caliber that you can fire quickly and accurately. Would you only box with left jabs if you had a nasty overhand right to go with them? Nuff said. ;)
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2016
  18. chimo

    chimo the few, the proud, the jarhead monkey crowd

    Only if I don't believe he can hit what he's shooting at with the little, inaccurate .22. It's not about the caliber...ANY caliber pointed at me is a good deterrent...as long as I believe the shooter can hit me with it.

    Anyone wanna volunteer to get shot with a .22? Didn't think so. ;)
     
  19. UncleMorgan

    UncleMorgan I eat vegetables. My friends are not vegetables.

    I admit that when I wrote earlier in this thread about shooting people in the left eye, I was just funnin'. In the first place, you just about can't find any place that'll buy the pelts, these days, even if they are undamaged. And in the second place, I'm right-handed. so I usually hit the right eye anyway...unless I'm having a problem with my dyslexia, in which case I hit the eye right, instead.

    That's a seriously important point that Kingfish makes. Knives just seem to make people move faster than the speed of light, and the time to stop someone with a knife is the instant you perceive the threat. Waiting for (or responding) to the start of a charge is the almost certain guarantee that you will experience the end of the charge.

    And not to your benefit.

    As a general rule, almost no one that gets into a knife fight avoids getting cut, either by their opponent or by themselves. Or, on a really bad day, by both.

    People who carry edged weapons for combat use should also carry a few bandannas and a couple of rubber tourniquets for use after the festivities have concluded.

    My understanding is that a truly skilled knife fighter never shows the blade before the (usually) lethal strike. That means the defender is always at a disadvantage, and a state of high awareness may or may not be enough to insure survival in an attack.

    And, it follows that in a knife attack it may be a mistake to automatically rely on a weapon as the primary defense. A timely unarmed response is better than a tardy armed one. If you can deflect the attack, and maybe put a few fingers in the attacker's eyes or throat, you may get that precious few seconds that allow you to unlimber the old hawg-leg and resolve the dispute favorably.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2016
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  20. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart Snow Monkey Moderator

    Apples & Oranges..... Boxing is a Blunt Force Trauma excersize..... While Shooting in the Forehead is a Penetrating the Brain, with a significant Energetic Penetrator....
     
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