An intelligent discussion on drones

Discussion in 'Technical' started by gunbunny, Dec 19, 2012.


  1. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    The Wiki article you show, makes a bunch of assumptions, that MAY, or MAY NOT, be valid for an encrypted 802.11xxx link...
    1. That the link does NOT encrypt the Header of each Packet, as it is being transmitted. With the Header encrypted, there is No Chance of recovering ANY of the encapsulated data including any SSID that may be there. Only a Receiver that would run each packet, as received, thru it's internal decryption process, would see, and respond, to such a transmitted Encrypted Packet.
    2. Sniffing each Band Chunk (Channel) only allows one to inspect a completed Packet in that Band Chunk, and it takes a LARGE Number of sniffed Packets to even begin to break, even the oldest, least SECURE, version, of Link Encryption. You should try it, in your AoO, yourself... It isn't easy even with the best Software Tools, and even if you KNOW what you are doing.
    3. The $50K isn't for the Drone Links, It is for the MINIMUM Detection Hardware, and Computer Power, to even come close to figuring out what is out there and around your AoO.
    4. Your going to look pretty funny, housed in the FEDs GrayBar Hotel, after you blow a GPS guided Drone out of the Sky, because you jammed it's GPS,
    and the Agency that owned it, comes looking for you, and it, knowing that it lost GPS Signal from Jamming. Heck that kind of Jammer shows up on a Spectrum Analyzer, MUCH better, than a GIANT SIGN, that says "Here AM I, come Get me" and ALL the Detection Vans the FCC has are equipped with multiple Spectrum Analyzers, and the Crews KNOW how to use them, and how to see that Giant Sore Thumb. Ask "Me" how I know.... I used to run one of those Vans.... If they want you, and know where you are, within 100 Sq. Miles, your toast, and it is very HARD to say "No" to a Federal Marshal, and walk away.... ...... YMMV.... but don't bet your life on it.....
     
    tulianr and kellory like this.
  2. Airtime

    Airtime Monkey+++

    I think we need to be clear what drones and situations we are discussing.
    1. It is post SHTF and the concern is a civilian/hobbyist built and operated AROV, not a law enforcement owned and operated unit. I think maybe incorrectly that was the OP's concern.
    2. Not a SHTF or TEOTWAWKI but still an AROV constructed and operated by a civilian/hobbyist. This might be a bit like the PA pigeon hunter situation
    3. A law enforcement or other gov agency owned and operated AROV in not SHTF or TEOTWAWKI.

    What might be wise or stupid may be a bit different for each of these situations.

    AT
     
    gunbunny likes this.
  3. kellory

    kellory An unemployed Jester, is nobody's fool. Banned

    My understanding, is we are discussing bambi-thumpers, and parasites, not LEOs.
     
    gunbunny likes this.
  4. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    I am just discussing the Technology involved, I really could care less what Senerio that the technology is used in, or by who, because it has no bearing on the technology. It either works, or it doesn't, and it is either capable of being interdicted, or NOT. These are the questions that I am interested in dealing with. .....
     
  5. gunbunny

    gunbunny Never Trust A Bunny

    Great disscussion, but I wasn't expecting so much anger. Airtime and Kellory are correct about the situation I am talking about.

    I've seen the video of the PA pigeon hunter's good shooting, and the interview with the moron who was whining about his drone. Some people are so worried about what other people are doing, and are more concerned about the welfare of animals than that of people. What's to keep someone like this from arming his drone and shooting at the hunters?
     
  6. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    The Hunters, themselves, which will be shooting BACK..... Once they down the drone, they are going to go looking for the idiot who was flying the thing... and he will be fairly CLOSE. Certainly within 1000 Yds.... and when they find him, if he has used it to shoot at them, they will then SHOOT Back for SURE...
    The Operator will NOT be in a Gun Free Zone.... More like a Live Fire Zone..... ..... YMMV....
     
    VisuTrac likes this.
  7. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    There are two reasons non government operations won't field armed drones. First is the lift power needed, second is ability to handle recoil. Both are expensive to deploy, and then to lose to ground based firepower.

    I'm not so sure such a gadget wouldn't fall under the batfor's definition of a destructive device. Now, THAT would be an interesting twist.
     
  8. kellory

    kellory An unemployed Jester, is nobody's fool. Banned

    Ghrit, have you seen Charleen, in post 13 of this thread? It is a military prototype, but reverse engineering happens all the time. I think it could badly misused.
     
  9. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    Yes, I saw it. There is a debunking of that on the web that I've seen. Evidently a pretty good fake.
     
  10. kellory

    kellory An unemployed Jester, is nobody's fool. Banned

    I have seen several videos put out by this guy. I haven't seen any problems with any of them. This guy just loves playing with powerful toys, and blowing stuff up. If you have a link to the debunking, I would like to see it.
     
  11. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    Wasn't able to find it earlier. Will look again in a day or so.
     
  12. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    I watched his video, and the thing is noisy, and ANYONE with 12 Ga ShotGun could blow it out of the sky, with just one shot.
     
  13. kellory

    kellory An unemployed Jester, is nobody's fool. Banned

    In the open air, true. But a closed car or truck, or watching TV? I think it could sneak up or you, and kill you by stealth. At a ball game? or on a moving boat? It is not that loud.
     
  14. Airtime

    Airtime Monkey+++

    There was a multicopter called the e-volo that lifted a person off the ground for the first time recently.

    Carrying 5-10 pounds of payload is not hard, you just need to feel it's worth the bucks for Li-Po batteries and lots of motors and ESCs. But considering there are turbine jet engines that put out 80 pounds of thrust and cost 5 grand and folks are buying them for their RC, sometimes two at a time....
    YouTube

    The quad copter the PETA crowd used on the hunters had a good sized video camera. Hmmm.. replace it with a lightweight polymer frame auto handgun like a Ruger LMC or Kel-tec P3AT. I am hesitant to think that they couldn't be designed to carry enough weight. Wait. You can buy one now for 5 grand and you know how resourceful DIYers can scrounge the bits to make a copy of something for a quarter of the price.
    The Camera Bag: X88-J Octocopter is Drone of Your Dreams (or Nightmares?) for Shooting Awesome Aerials with Your DSLR - Imaging Resource

    As for the recoil, these AROV folks are working out some very good controls using gyro sensors. Take a look at these of people pushing and batting the quad-copters around. Most I've seen recover very well in just a second or two. Folks can easily flip, roll and loop these now and easily recover.

    AeroQuad AcroBatics Christmas 2010 |

    The challenge will be to have a stable enough gun mount to hit something predictably from any distance. But just as the internet has brought this prepping group together, it has brought the DIY drone crowd together and they are collaborating on controls and all kinds of systems. A good camera platform will be the foundation for a gun platform.

    Civilian DIY AROVs will certainly exist upon which a gun can be mounted. They probably already do and it's just a matter of time before the gun is tried. Quite possibly has been but one can understand why they wouldn't be talking.

    AT
     
  15. VisuTrac

    VisuTrac Ваша мать носит военные ботинки Site Supporter+++

    why mount a gun on a drone.
    a smart individual/group would use the drone as an expendable distraction, while you are watching the shiny thing, they'd just shoot you.
     
  16. Airtime

    Airtime Monkey+++

    Agree completely.

    These things have no trouble conducting some very effective surveillance but as noted in my first and last posts, the challenge is being stable enough to not require them being 10 feet away to shoot you. The Russian guy's machine gun AROV was a very good example of what I'm talking about. His control system yielded pretty poor stability compared to other videos I've seen but does illustrate well the challenge. This guy couldn't predicably hit my barn from 100 yards yet to be an effective weapon we all know better accuracy is needed. There are some DIY platforms I really do believe could hit my barn, maybe even my SUV but I suspect, maybe incorrectly, pretty low probably of hitting me from 100 at this time. But I wouldn't be surprised to see that change in a couple years.

    AT
     
  17. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    Miniature Gyro Systems are around that could be designed into the platforms stability controls. Just see what the Model Choppers are doing these days.... There is a whole slew of engineering in designing these things, and that really is beyond most hobbiest Users...
     
  18. Airtime

    Airtime Monkey+++

    Agreed. However creating Linux was beyond the ability of one person but through the collaboration of others each contributing elements in which they are particularly skilled much can be accomplished and then shared with the community.

    DIYdrones.com is that very forum. They have created various flight controls based upon Arduino controllers, lift and power calculation software, smart phone apps, autopilots, you name it. And it's just time before they collaborate on a very stable platform for long lens cameras for nature photography or something similar that can be adapted. Just thinkin...

    AT
     
  19. VisuTrac

    VisuTrac Ваша мать носит военные ботинки Site Supporter+++

    Actually, I thought the first Kernel of Linux was created by one person. Linus Torvalds.
    He released his OS to the world for FREE.
    and that's when everyone else jumped on. ;)
     
  20. kellory

    kellory An unemployed Jester, is nobody's fool. Banned

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