The Transit Level or a Contractor/Construction Level. I am a old school kind of guy so don't bother with the modern tech laser models. Guess they are good for folks that can't do the basic math to calculate distance etc. Back in high school one of the elective classes available was Land Navigation and Surveying and the teacher of the class was the owner of the local surveying company. Important because having a teacher that has engaged in the profession for 30+ years make a real difference vs learning from a teacher that has only read about it and learned about it from those who actually do it for a living. One of my Great Grandpas was a land surveyor back in the 1800s and I inherited his kit. It is ancient LOL and it is old brass. It is like a lot of things that were passed down to me. No one else in the family had a clue what to do with it, so either sell it or hand it off to Mike. So I get things like that Surveyors Kit and and am curious and have some drive to learn how to use that old transit, compass and sextant. I am by no means a Master of their use but have found that old kit and the journeyman level skills to use them to have been a valuable and worthwhile skill set to have over the years. So last Thursday I broke out the old kit with the intention of surveying the Lake area and calculating the acreage down to 1/16th of an acre. Very first shot I slipped on some clay clods hit the transit and knocked it over sending it sliding down the dam. Didn't break anything but decided it would be best to pack it up in its wood box and return the entire kit back to the loft of the Cabin. I figured it would be much better to just put together a new survey kit with more modern and less fragile tools. Started building that kit yesterday with a Johnson Contractor/Construction Transit (no lasers or computer chips) and a new telescopic stick. Used a known base line to calibrate it and started shooting the lake bed. The differences between a A land transit and a contractor transit are few, a Contractor transit and spin a full 360 degree but typically has a shorter range from 20' to 1,000 feet. A land transit has a much longer optic range but does not swivel a full 360 degrees. For my use and purposes a Contractor Transit with a 800' range is more than adequate. Finished up shooting it and doing the math about 30 minutes ago. I learned a few interesting things! First the contractor either does not know how to use his $4,000 laser transit or does not know how to calibrate it. The very first shot from the SW Corner of the dam level with the bottom of the spillway shooting to the full marker flag at the end of the South arm told me the contractors flags are WAY off. The water line at the end of the South Arm is going to end 350 feet farther up the the draw than his marker flag says it will. The elevation of the Marker flag is 37 inches lower than the reality. So both depth and distance are WRONG his flag will be under 3' of water His acreage calculation according to his fancy tech also way off! His calculations had the surface area at 10.73 acres. My original estimate prior to the lake construction starting was pretty close. The main lake will be 14.89 acres (My estimate was 13.75 that was a few rough transit shots and eyeballing it. ) The South arm Silt pond after I build its dam will be 3.54 acres and the North Arm Wood Trash Catch Pond will come in at 3.89 acres. NOW I KNOW to within 1/16th of an acre. Why does a few feet of depth and surface area acres matter? If I had built the boat dock and sunk the post trusting the contractors measurements and calculations......... the completed boat dock would be under 3' of water. The Woods Pond and Silt Pond dams would not have been high enough or thick enough and the silt pond dam would be in the wrong location. The Two points at the Channel and South Arm rather than being 8" above the water line would be 11 inches below the water line. If I did not have the tools, basic knowledge and skill to figure this out it would have been a real mess when the lake fully filled. I suspect the Contractors problem was that his self leveling, self calibrating lase transit (That really are not self calibrating) was 1-2 degrees off and shooting at a slight angle downward. lol a fraction of a inch at the top = feet at the end. Just one use for a transit. Other uses I use mine for are making straight and square fence rows, making square structures, putting up a 42' wide 120' long high tunnel and getting it square within a half inch is a whole lot easier with a transit. Grading land to make it level or angled....... the transit tells you exactly where you need to be and how much more you have to go. Long before the was GPS and Lasers, transits with the optic and knob adjustments and locking levers were doing the same job With the Stick and some math and doing the job very well. I just prefer the old non electronic laser computer chip way of doing things. It is about $3500 less than a do it all for you modern set up. Does not require batteries or a power cord and well it makes me feel in touch with those guys like my distant Great Grandpa and those before him that went out for Months to years at a time surveying the USA, Using a Fragile Brass Transit, a wood stick, Sextant, Compass and a watch. The Tech of the modern gizmos and gadgets might be easier and even more accurate but they sure don't invoke the feeling of being in touch with our history that the old tools do Cough and a big Solar Flare is not going to fry the circuit board and computer chips in my transits....... Because they don't have any Before GPS someone skilled with a sextant and a Clock could pinpoint their exact position on Earth down to a couple of feet. I am not even a little bit skilled with a sextant but I hold it and marvel at the man I never know that was skilled with it. Cough I cheat a bit with a laser I have a magnetic on I put on my rifle barrels to zero my scopes in. I learned yesterday that it sticks to the new transit housing just as well as it does a rifle barrel and that I can calibrate to transit to zero in on the Red Dot just like zeroing in the scopes So I admit using the laser to pin point on the stick the exact inch is a bit easier than going by the transits cross hairs. Anyway a Transit is a very valuable tool no matter whether it is a modern flavor or less advanced flavor. It might not do any actual work but it sure takes a lot of guessing and work out of doing the work. And in the case of the Lake provided knowledge that prevented my from having some labor intensive and costly errors......... Like building a dam 250 feet farther down a draw than where it needs to be built! Or a boat dock that would have been 3 feet under water.........
Laugh out loud, the Brits took control of India in the 1800's and like every military before them and since, said God do we need maps to run this place. And then of course you can not buy, sell, loan money, etc on land or buildings that are not located and recorded. The Brits did this in the 1800's in India. The transit they used weighed about 1,000 pounds, with an arc used in measurement in the many feet range, the baseline used was 7 1/2 miles, they compensated for the effect of the length of the chain based on temperature changes, allowed for the effect of the curvature of the earth, allowed for distortion in the atmosphere, and starting at the ocean, moved to the base of the mountains and calculated the Height of Mt. Everest, the man that lead the survey. The painstaking, monumental task of mapping India in the 19th century Using a sextant to get a straight line across country, using chains, using math, Everest concluded that the mountain was 29,002 feet high, accurate within a few feet and still open to debate due to snow and ice on peak, and off about 30 feet in distance from its actual location. Since he was not allowed to get closer than about 100 miles from peak due to politics and national rights etc, a really remarkable feat. Lot to be said about old methods and a lot to be questioned by some new ones. Love the "Rest of the Story" Thunder5Ranch and please continue to enlighten us about the real world, under water docks and all. If you aren't careful, we will have to have a "sticky" placed on that blasted pond, one of most interesting posts in a long time, humor in building it, beautiful pictures, pathos of under water docks and the modern "error free" tech, old tech, real conservation and green not just words, creating a new ecco system, use of semi primitive tools, oh the depth of it all!!! Love it! Almost as bad as some of BTPost's electrical articles. Here I am with a 6 pac of double A batteries and he is talking about rebuilding older slow speed massive gensets for another 20 years use. Good reason to take your dog home and not get in the fight, I am totally outclassed.
@Thunder5Ranch I would like to recommend a very interesting and short read to you, 'Longitude: The True Story of a Lone Genius Who Solved the Greatest Scientific Problem of His Time' by Dava Sobel. Today we take navigation as part of everyday life to be common as dirt but in truth it took hundreds of years to solve the greatest problem. While latitude is made by nature, longitude, the other requirement necessary to perform any form of navigation, is man-made and it was anything but easy to solve. Plus, after doing so, the politics involved in its acceptance was horrendous! It's a tremendous read as the author takes great care to keep the story interesting and for laymen. I was so inspired by this book that while reading it, I wrote down and still keep handy, notes of critical information so I wouldn't forget. Amazing book! I think you would enjoy it. It's $8 for the Kindle version, a bit much for an eBook of less than 200 pages but in this case, I would tell you it is worth every penny as I consider it in the top 5 of books, I have read in my lifetime that has left an impression on me throughout my life. It's truly excellent. Amazon.com: Longitude: The True Story of a Lone Genius Who Solved the Greatest Scientific Problem of His Time eBook : Sobel, Dava: Kindle Store
Solving the Longitude problem changed the entire world more than people today realize. I have read quite a bit about John Harrison over the years. Can't remember if I have read that particular book though. I have a huge amount of admiration for people that are told something can't be done and then go on to do it.
I use the transit occasionally ,, it is an interesting tool to use ,, I'll have to read that book Bandit recomended . I've never worked with the sextant part of it ,, altho I don't have one that has that featute anymore . The one I have now is basically for grades ,, but can do left and right degrees also . I handle mine with kids gloves ,, I'm very careful with it ,, and don't let just anyone mess with it . I take it in every few years to have its calibration checked or set . A fella I know bought one of those laser transits from an online auction from a tool rental company . Don't remember what he paid for it ,, but ,, he was wanting to use it to set the grade on the house I'm building for him . I suggested we drop it off to check the calibration ,,, good thing we did ,,, the tech said it was off ,, and something was broke in it ,, he couldn't get his computer to connect to the transits circuit board to set the calibration . So it's basically worthless . So ,, are you going to be able to get the contractor back out to raise the grade ,, or are you going to have to take care of it yourself .??
A little note about Harrison's clocks Longitude found - the story of Harrison's Clocks It is well worth the view to just scroll down and look at his H-1 timepiece as well as H-4 being a large pocket watch. Even more fun was that a lot of it was wood and he used two weights and a spring to compensate for ship movement and counteracted almost all friction and temp effects. The Harrison Timekeepers H1, H2, H3 and H4 – Redfern Animation The thought that went into building a clock out of wood, with very low friction, and able to handle motion is almost beyond belief. Harrison solved the problem by pure thought and trial and error. His invention for example allowed the Brits to map where the new world actually was in respect to a given point, Greenwich, and ships to know where they were at by a couple miles after a long voyage instead of often off by 50 or more miles. Lots and lots of rabbit holes here Thunder5Ranch. One of the old timers was given credit for finding things out and he said he stood on the shoulders of giants, today we have a lot of self professed experts out there that are pygmies and take it as a great threat if you wish their thoughts and beliefs backed up by "facts"..
I have dads transit I've played with off and on, still in its original wood box. I know basically how to use it, but never had the occasion to use it seriously.
The one I have is basically a semi plastic toy, but it works very well for a couple hundred feet. Saves hours in laying out fences, finding corner points, etc. I have a laser as well, but it just doesn't seem to work as well. That said, using a rotating laser to level a concrete floor, set floor joists, top off concrete form heights, etc is a no brainer, they may require set up to be as accurate, but getting a beep when you are at the right point and arrows before that are so very handy. Don't use often, batteries go bad, and calibrate charge can be more than I paid for the laser, so I tend to "borrow" one when I need it for a major job.
He built a Great Dam! Followed my specs to the letter on dam part of the job but I put chalk lines for base width and checked twice per day on the angle/slope of the dam side and made sure he was compacting the clay tight and every foot layer. We had two pretty heated arguments on finishing the dam. I wanted the dam level from North to South over 90% of the length of the dam going South and the last 10% to drop at a slope to 1.5 feet lower in the South West Corner of the dam to the spillway in that corner. The second point of contention was the Spillway he kept trying to put it in the Center of the dam rather than the SW Corner where I wanted it. Could not pound into his head the logic and reasoning for why I wanted it done that way. So ended up just saying I am the one paying for it just Fing do it the way I tell you to! The reasoning for the way I wanted it done that way are FIRST if we get and epic down pour that over loads the spillway I want the water that the spillway can't handle funneled to the SW corner and allowed to flow over that last 110 feet of the dam rather than over the main body of the dam. I have since reinforced that 110 feet with a layer of 6" rip rap and covered it with a 6" layer of 3" rock on top of the 110 feet and a double layer of compressed in rip rap on the back of thew dam going to the same 110 feet. That 110 feet will act as an emergency overflow and forces the water out the SW Corner. The Second I strongly dislike Center Spillways they are harder to maintain, harder to install and every dam that I have seen rupture has had a center spillway or a pipe only overflow...... that got blocked by debris. A side spillway on the other hand is easy to install can be cut into hard virgin clay the channel down from the spillway behind the dam can be cut at an angle away from the base of the dam and it is a much gentler slope down that can be maintained and more rock added as needed with very little effort. Pretty much Zero Chance of washing the dam out with a side spillway. After arguing those two points for a week every morning of that week and spending the last 9 days scraping top soil off of 5 acres of the North arm that he spread a half inch of clay on to hide and claimed he scraped the top soil out. And Now finding he didn't correctly mark the water line. NO HE WILL NOT BE COMING BACK I am fighting the urge to sue him for breech of contract as it is for the North Arm Top Soil stunt alone. He Built a Great Dam....... I have built a lot of ponds and small lakes. It was a major part of the Landscape Company. I ran a full time excavating crew just for Pond and Lake Constructions with a D4, a D6 and D9 with a BIG 4wd tractor that pulled 3 big dirt pans, one big CAT Trackhoe and one Smaller Komatsu Trackhoe and a not as big but big 4wd tractor that pulled a 20' wide 18 ton roller compactor. LOL we did a bit more than mow grass and plant flower beds First Lake and silt pond I built in 1997 still ranks as the best body of water I built. Customer insisted on a 36" pipe overflow that went down and out through the base of the dam. Might be 30 years from now but eventually that pipe overflow will have major malfunctions. Last Lake I built in 2009 before selling off that last of my heavy equipment. This one the spillway is in the bottom left corner and goes down at a angle from the the dam through the middle of the line of trees. That dam and spillway will still be going strong 1000 years from now. This is the deepest lake I ever built and the biggest dam I ever built, the dam base is just short of 800 feet across at the base tapering up to 120' wide on the right narrow end and 300ish feet on the left wide end. Dam is 60 feet tall from center base to center top. Deepest point of water is 56 feet deep. Lake itself is only 6.8 acres and the dam is only 500 and some change feet long. Built it to flood two very deep ravines and had endless good clay to pull out of the bed and never once hit any under ground water. The sheer volume of clay that went into packing that dam was epic! I was so damned bored after 6 weeks of going around in circles there with the pans!!! Anyway my point is I have built a lot of lakes and ponds more than my contractor has even dreamed about building He is a average equipment operator and would make a much better employee than Company Owner. He is a mid 30s knows everything bullshit artist that does average to below average work. He built a Great Dam because I was constantly on his ass and driving down to the dam to observe and check his work. A lot of things I don't know a lot about....... Dirt Work and Killing People I do know a lot about and am very good at both. While the demand for killing people might be high in the Civ world it runs into a lot of potential legal problems Working with Dirt Not so much LOL. So I decided to work with dirt rather than becoming a MERC or a Hitman All I really ever wanted to do is just be a small farmsteader and leave everyone alone and be left alone This contractor though was constantly trying to Shit a Man with a Turd in every pocket when he ran into me. I don't believe I could stand another hour let alone another three days of him and his lines of bullshit without reverting to the other profession I am very good at Easy enough for me to just raise the tops of the points with the tractor, the bucket and the box blade.......... Just time and fuel and I am actually finding working on fixing and doing what he didn't do to be relaxing. Whole different mind set building for yourself vs Working and Building for someone else! The only regret I have in all of this is that I wish I had built my lake myself before I sold the last big tractor, 2 pans and the D6. I feel sorry for people that he does half ass work that are just average home and property owners that don't have the tools and skills to fix what he doesn't do or half asses. Hell just fixing the Dozer Ruts he left while trying to push mud the day after that huge rain would be beyond the average property owners ability.
A friends dad had a spread out in the county, and decided to buy the elderly neighbor lady's acreage to add on. The deal was made based on her deceased husbands' amateur survey of the land using his equipment, 22 acres. $22k later Hugh now had 42 acres. Ten years later she passed on, and her son gave Hugh right of first refusal on her house and remaining 1 acre, which he bought. He decided to have the whole shebang surveyed and the old lady's house along with 5 acres cut off for his son, my friend. It turned out that Hugh's original 20 acres was right, the guesstimated 1 acre with the house was pretty close, but the land he bought was 43 acres in total, not 22, and took up most of a neighbors "land" on the road a mile over. It seems that back in the 50's the husband made a huge mistake in his survey and pounded rods in the ground in all of the wrong places except the first one he found by the house from the original survey. This was in the early 80's before satellite mapping and GIS surveys, so the missing 21 acres was just in no-mans land. Once the survey was done and filed, naturally Hugh had a larger tax burden but didn't really mind. Back home in NC, many family farms were passed down with no survey, many chunks of land were sold by "stepping it off". Add in all of the handshake deals for land use and it made for a real mess. The counties finally got smart and started drilling down in the 90's to get it sorted to get the tax revenue. I guess the moral of my story is that a proper survey is the cheapest insurance one can get. It has always been a skill I wish I had and has always amazed me.
My old high school had one of the best industrial arts set ups in the PNW. The local JC used to come to our shops because our shops were state of the art-at least back then. Anyways, the wood shop teacher had a class called building trades. You had to take a couple of wood shop classes before you could be considered for this class. He basically hand picked his students. He taught us how to build a shed, barn or a house and find property lines. He taught us to use the transit as one of the 1st things. In spite of using it to watch the girls PE class jog around the track, I managed to learn how to actually use one. While I haven't needed to use it in years, I still have one that I used to lay out flow lines, tank batteries and well tie ins. You mentioned laser levels. While they are all the rage, I still prefer the old transit myself. However.. I did step out of the horse n buggy days for these: GPL100-50G | Green-Beam Five-Point Self-Leveling Alignment Laser | Bosch Power Tools GPL3T | Three-Point Torpedo Alignment Laser | Bosch Power Tools These two tools have saved me many hours laying out pipe and duct runs 20+ feet in the air. A number of years ago we did a pipe job for a local car manufacturer. We ran 20 inch down to 2 inch water lines in an existing building roughly 30 feet up through existing duct work,cable trays, fire suppression systems, electrical conduits,ect. I spent a couple days using these lasers from ground level to figure pipe routing and material take off lists to be able to form up a quote. Trying to figure all that with a man lift and a tape measure would've taken forever.
If you want to make neighbors angry and potentially disappoint yourself get a pro survey done and file it with the County Clerk. Damn near started a blood feud when I had a pro survey done on the original piece of land here. The property line I had were described as from the SE Corner to the North Tree line or from the SE Corner West to the big Oak Tree. Well the tree line had grown out 300 feet since then and Which Big Oak Tree there are only 50 of them due West. The Surveyors found all of the original iron pins right where they were supposed to be by coordinates but not where they were supposed to be by description. I ended up buying 2 adjacent pieces of land just to put the issue to rest. 3rd one contested my survey, paid to have his own survey done that told him the same thing my survey showed bu still pushed the issue and and ended up with a court order for yet a 3rd survey that we both had to pay for that told us the same thing our own surveys told us....... that the North Property line was 290 feet North of where the neighbor believed it was. And that 11.98 acres that he believed to be his was not really his but mine. Guy has hated me ever since and swears I stole 12 acres from him with the help of a corrupt court! So turned out my 35 acre tract was really 47 acres and the 35 acres was determined by a walk off not a actual survey and the 11.98 acres was like what you described a no mans land and the 35 acres came about from a not accurate walk off survey. In the end I was nice and sold him the 11.98 acres for $1 per acre as I didn't want it anyway, I wanted the original 35 and the 5 adjacent I bought for a square 40 acres. The asshole to this day now says I stole 12 acres from him and he had to buy it from me to get it back......... Truth but very lacking in context
So after endless numbers of people telling me I should try a laser set up. I found a Johnson kit on Amazon for $459 that has a 1200' range. Going to take it out and give it a whirl and see what I think about it tomorrow. Checked its calibration a bit ago against a known base line and it is right on the money. I can see where this would be a useful tool... but old dogs and new tricks and all of that ...............
