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Appleseed Project

Discussion in 'Firearms' started by Equilibrium, Jan 19, 2011.

  1. Equilibrium

    Equilibrium Monkey++

    I found mention of this program in another thread, http://www.survivalmonkey.com/forum/firearms/27584-gramma-protecting-her-young-what-gun-get.html
    Appleseed Project Home.
    Here's a clickable map if anyone else is interested attending, Appleseed Project - Search States

    It's a bargain for women at $10 and $5 for youth.

    I have some scheduling conflicts until March with the distance to the event from my location being about 100 miles one way. I'm checking. Right now it looks like the April date is good but.... I have some reservations and questions and the website doesn't have a phone number I can call.

    My reservations and questions:
    I've shot a Taurus once about 20 years ago. We're talking point and click.... bang. I've shot BB guns since then. Forty-five years ago my brothers tried to "teach" me how to shoot a rifle. I can't remember how long it was before I could feel my arm again and I had technicolor bruises on my shoulder and hip down the back of my leg for a while. I was so mad and hurt I cried. I've never tried shooting a rifle since. Presumably... my "teachers" sucked and there won't be a repeat of this under any circumstances... am I correct?

    I've lost over 60 some odd % of my hearing and have to wear ear protection when I hammer nails and do other things people take for granted to protect what hearing I have left. Would I need to buy hearing protection for rifles somewhere before attending or do they provide that?
    Will they provide us smaller people with an "appropriate" sized rifle for training? I really don't want to end up flying backwards again after one shot at my age and I really don't want to buy a rifle when ultimately it's a hand gun I'd like to buy just as soon as I have an FOID card.
    It's the experience of learning how to shoot a rifle properly I want.

    My teenage son has some good experiences at summer rifle ranges provided by Boy Scouts. I think they were shooting 22's though.... I could be wrong. My youngest nephew just turned 13. I spoke with my brother about this and we believe his maturity level is such that he would benefit from an Appleseed weekend. But.... he only has experience shooting BB guns and I'm somewhat concerned about this body.... he's smaller than me at maybe 95# and I wouldn't want to bring him home banged up or anything. Would it be appropriate signing either one of them up with me or are these weekend events more for adults who have zip nadda nil no experience? Personally.... I'd like the company of my son and nephew as I don't quite feel comfortable going by myself since I don't know any of these people.
  2. ghrit

    ghrit Ambulatory anachronism Administrator Founding Member

    A couple notes:

    You are expected to provide your own ammo, which can add up. The first of the two events I've attended, I burnt up over 600 rounds over the weekend, the second was over 500, and that because I had a malf that took time to fix. Also, you need to check the prices; as I remember, women didn't pay for the shooting other than ammo. Juniors, well, I just don't remember.

    Your best bet is to e-mail them. I don't think you'll have a lot of luck trying to talk directly to the range staff since they are working stiffs and likely on the road to shoots on the weekends. The main office is staffed, but I have no idea what sort of hours they keep.
  3. Equilibrium

    Equilibrium Monkey++

    Quick call to one of my brothers. He said 500-600 rounds for a weekend sounded like an awful lot and said for me to forward the information to him and he'd check it out. This brother has a federal firearms license but.... I don't particularly want him... or any of the others.... "teaching" me how to shoot a rifle. Old wounds don't heal well and I'd be fine with any of them teaching our sons but.... not me. Point in context.... he jumped at the opportunity to teach me and when I said, "ummm no thanks" he burst out laughing. He did say if we went he'd send us with AR Fifteens that don't have "as much poop" to them for me and my son and a 22 that would have no recoil for our nephew but we need for my FOID card to come in and we need to get FOID cards for both boys or no go. I guess the AR fifteen is some sort of a civilian version of some military firearm. Hearing and eye protection he said he can give us. He said no way on our youngest nephew using anything but a 22. He said Bass Pro shops would have the shoulder pads cheap or he could pick some up for us. Ammunition he can help with as soon as my FOID comes in.... I think he can get used ammunition even cheaper since he reloads or something. He pretty much said he'd take care of contacting them for me because he thinks 500-600 rounds is too much for anyone with no experience in a weekend and I'd be really sore the week after and that if it's really 500-600 rounds per person.... we might want to move my son to a 22 because of the ammunition costs. So thanks for the heads up ghrit.... this might be a no go for me unless they'll let me reduce to what my body could take which my brother says would probably be more like only 200-250 rounds for the weekend.
  4. ghrit

    ghrit Ambulatory anachronism Administrator Founding Member

    AR15s are indeed the civilian version of the M16 rifle, variants of which are in use today. That would be the berries for an Appleseed. FWIW, that's what I used, and is my MZB gun if it comes to that.

    Frankly, it doesn't matter his opinion on the number of rounds downrange at a shoot, for me it was an actual count (I'll dig up the exact numbers if you would like, I have the record someplace around here.) That said, some shoot more and talk less, some talk more and shoot less. The history lessons they teach, and the civics as well, are almost worth the price of admission if the staff you get are bent that way.

    I tend to agree that more than a couple hundred rounds in a day or two, even from a (relative to an M14, for example) soft shooting AR, is a bit much for a beginner. When discomfort takes over, learning stops. The shoot boss can tell you where the best times are to step back off the line and take a break, but it would be at your call. And, you can take only one day rather than the whole weekend. Usually, the basics are covered on Saturday, and Sunday is the day to shoot for qualification.

    Your brother might like the experience as well. Get him to go along and talk [yack] to anyone he wants EXCEPT you. :lol:


    ETA, get your brother to send along some widgets to load magazines with. My thumb was hamburger after the first one I attended. Dunno what's available for the 10/22s, but the Lula loader saved my thumb on the second one.
  5. TXKajun

    TXKajun Monkey++

    I attended an Appleseed shoot about 2 months ago. It was superb!

    As far as the rifles go, they recommend a Ruger 10/22 or a Winchester equivalent. At our shoot, they had extra rifles, no charge, no problem. We had one gal who was shooting a .223. It was LOUD compared to everyone else's gun, so be prepared for that possibility. Bring GOOD hearing protection. I used ear plugs and ear muffs. If I'd thought of it, I'd have gotten some of the Pillow-soft silicon ear plugs from WalMart. They would have been perfect.

    Yep, you're gonna shoot up the best part of a 500 round brick of ammo. I cleaned my 10/22 after 1 days shoot and had no malfunctions.

    No, using a .22 won't kill your shoulder. The positions, however, are very awkward at first......heck, they were awkward for me for both days, but I'm 59 years young and in great shape.....if you consider round a shape! [fnny] They have you shoot from standing, kneeling/sitting and prone as well as going from standing to the other positions.

    There were shooters at my Appleseed from 14 years old to over 70. Whatever age, you'll fit in.

    It ain't easy. Let me say it again. It ain't easy!! They will, however, teach you valuable fundamentals you'll not get anywhere else. The "goal" is to earn a Rifleman patch. There was one guy in our shoot that earned the patch. It was his 4th Shoot! Plus he practiced for a few hours each week between shoots. But it WILL make you a good shot.

    Go, have fun, listen to some great history talks on the Revolutionary War, enjoy the weekend.

  6. Equilibrium

    Equilibrium Monkey++

    ghrit> "Frankly, it doesn't matter his opinion on the number of rounds downrange at a shoot, for me it was an actual count (I'll dig up the exact numbers if you would like, I have the record someplace around here.)" Not necessary. I totally believe you shot that much. My brother can probably shoot that much... I don't know.... I never asked since we were talking about me trying to figure out if Appleseed was going to be a good "fit" or not. If the 500 rounds had been say an Appleseed Project requirement minimum.... I think my brother's concern about that being too much for ME was reasonable is all. With the cost of ammunition as high as it is... that kind of a minimum requirement could preclude women from trying to learn even the basics.
    "I tend to agree that more than a couple hundred rounds in a day or two, even from a (relative to an M14, for example) soft shooting AR, is a bit much for a beginner. When discomfort takes over, learning stops. The shoot boss can tell you where the best times are to step back off the line and take a break, but it would be at your call. And, you can take only one day rather than the whole weekend. Usually, the basics are covered on Saturday, and Sunday is the day to shoot for qualification." A Saturday might be best for me if that's permitted and possibly the next day.... I guess that would depend on what my body felt like Sunday morning. Sounds like they might allow participants to back out if our bodies start screaming to us to quit.
    "Get him to go along and talk [yack] to anyone he wants EXCEPT you."
    I don't want to sound like an ingrate because he'll give me my choice of what ever I want to attend but....I don't want him.... or my Dad... or my husband.... or any of them going with me. They'd mean well.... their hearts would be in the right place but.... I'd struggle concentrating knowing any one of them was in the background "sorting out" how to help me improve my "technique".
    TXKajun> thank you for your comments.... especially the "Pillow-soft silicon ear plugs" suggestion combined with ear muffs. This was helpful too, "The positions, however, are very awkward at first......heck, they were awkward for me for both days, but I'm 59 years young and in great shape.....if you consider round a shape!". Of course round is a shape. ;) This is encouraging, "There were shooters at my Appleseed from 14 years old to over 70. Whatever age, you'll fit in." Hey!!! I'm in that age bracket!!! My goal would be to learn how to use a rifle.... without ending up with a dislocated shoulder on my rear.... just in case I ever happen to need to shoot one. The patch is a great goal but.... if I could walk away from the weekend feeling relatively confident I could remain vertical while shooting one.... it'd be worth my time.
    Thank you kind gentleman for all your help and encouragement.
  7. BTPost

    BTPost Old Fart Snow Monkey Moderator

    I am with you Equil, on this one... I taught Momma to shoot, but just the basics of Safe FireArm handling, and basic Point and Shoot Pistolcraft. Then when she had those down, I sent her to a one of my Ammunition Customers, who is a LEO Firearms Instructor, and Swat Commander, for a Major Metropolitan City. He then tutored her, in 3 months, of once a week, Pistolcraft, at our, then, local range. It got so, he had a class of 15 women, by the time she was finished, and he kept that going, for years after... Best idea I ever had, in that since she has been able to out shoot me, with ANY handgun, but I can bury her with a rifle. ......
  8. Equilibrium

    Equilibrium Monkey++

    I'm trying to be reasonable with so much on my plate is all. I'll never be a rifle expert but.... it would be nice to know that if I shot one from say my front door.... I'd still be standing upright and I'd be shooting in the general direction of my target. It's using a hand gun somewhat proficiently that is my goal. I feel it in my bones the day is coming where ALL women regardless of age.... better step up and take responsibility for acquiring at the very least.... enough instruction to use a hand gun properly without killing themselves or someone they love. For what it's worth... my husband did offer to teach me years ago but at the time I was in la la land and saw no need.
  9. jim2

    jim2 Monkey+++

    Your brother really jacked you up when it comes to shooting. I'll never understand why some people do that. Women are easier to teach than men, and in short order, I can have them shooting very well. Better in fact than most men. The bonehead should have been serious about what he was doing and started you ona .22LR. That was totally irresponsible on his part.

    And no, I'm not a nice guy at all when someone pulls something like that. Downright nasty in fact.

  10. fireplaceguy

    fireplaceguy Monkey+

    Equilibrium -

    I agree completely with Jim2. Jim's obviously done enough proper teaching to have figured out the same things I have. No offense, but from the little I've read here, I wouldn't let your brother teach anyone.

    I'm an Appleseed instructor. You should take a Ruger 10/22 to your first Appleseed(s). This is a very popular rifle chambered for the .22 long rifle rimfire cartridge. A box of 550 rounds costs less than $20 at Wal Mart, and they have almost no recoil at all. You can shoot thousands of rounds of that stuff and never bruise your shoulder in the slightest. Ammo that cheap allows you to get a lot of practice and even shoot more than one Appleseed weekend, which you should. Technique is technique, so all the skills you'll learn will transfer over to anything else you may wish to shoot. If it's in your budget, get two 10/22's and take the class with your son. It's a fun family activity.

    Here's another thread from last year on Appleseed that you should read: LINK

    PM me if you have questions, and I'll forward my phone number.
  11. Equilibrium

    Equilibrium Monkey++

    Actually, my misunderstanding. I misinterpreted this "[FONT=&quot]Maybe. Sometimes they have loaners, but most often they will be in military calibers and physical sizes.[/FONT]" to mean military rifles were required by Appleseed. My brother said a military rifle would be too much for me but said he'd send us with loaner M15's if that's what they wanted. He looked over their website and sent me this:

    Follow the link below. Lot's of information on the pull-downs.
    Appleseed - Frequently Asked Questions
    Read over the website thoroughly. You do not need military rifles. 22's are fine for you and XXXXX. XXXX should take his 30 CAL M1. He needs more experience.

    I do not see that 5 or ten bucks can cover what they do. It looks like you should go. They're pros.

    Go! Have fun!
    They were ALL boneheads back in the 60's.... that's when I ended up flying backwards compliments of the boneheads. They all grew up.
    We're going. Me, my youngest son, and my nephew. My son is taking the M1. I didn't know we had one. Actually, I didn't know he'd shot anything more than a 22 until my brother told me he had and my husband said he did well so he bought one... an Iver something or other used. My nephew and me will be sent with loaner 22's.... I don't know which ones. I'm sure my brother will pick something appropriate so no investment in firearms for me. He said if I like what he sends I'm supposed to keep it. He'll send us with ammunition too. I told him I'd let him off the hook for being party to the destruction of my body way back when. He laughed. He also found a place for me to take hand gun lessons.
  12. BTPost

    BTPost Old Fart Snow Monkey Moderator

    Nothing like a good old Ivar Johnson 30M1 Carbine, to learn shooting of a Military type weapon. They aren't as "Woosie" of a centerfire weapon as some folks think. Momma has a really nice Black Bear Rug that once was 350# animal that she killed with one round from my 30M1 Carbine. Nobody told her that a 30M1 was to small for Bears. Serves the Bear right for trying to heist smoked fish from Momma's Smoke House. Don't let those family members give you grief EQ, and go have a really good time, at Appleseed.
  13. ghrit

    ghrit Ambulatory anachronism Administrator Founding Member

    Glad you are going to do it.

    Sight in at 25 METERS (about 82 feet) BEFORE you go, things will go a lot more smoothly if you go with that preparation out of the way. Nothing will drive you crazier than missing the targets off the page and not having any idea where they are hitting. (Don't ask how I know this---)
  14. Equilibrium

    Equilibrium Monkey++

    I think what you said is what we have. That sounds right anyway. I asked my husband what that brother was talking about after I got the e-mail and he told "we" bought an Iver something for "our" son. There you have it.... we have an M1 I guess. I guess our son will be using that for the weekend. Me.... I'm going with whatever "Woosie" my brother sends for me to use. My nephew's getting a "Woosie" too. I think a "Woosie" is just my speed.
  15. fireplaceguy

    fireplaceguy Monkey+

    This sounds hopeful. Tell your brother that if at all possible you need a detachable magazine fed semi auto .22, with the Ruger 10/22 being the best choice. Any other style (bolt action or tube fed) rifle would put you at a real time and distraction disadvantage that will get in the way of learning.

    Keep us posted!
  16. fireplaceguy

    fireplaceguy Monkey+

    Yeah. Been there!
  17. Equilibrium

    Equilibrium Monkey++

    We're aiming for the weekend in June when hopefully the weather will be good but we do need to make sure there's no conflicts with soccer and such. Not that I'm opposed to rain or shine but my nephew is becoming somewhat obsessed with his "appearance" and if there's one "goil" there.... he'll be primping instead of learning if rain or wind messes up his hair. Our son could care less.... he's older and he's more like me.
    ghrit> I missed your post but.... me too. I almost backed out when I thought I'd have to learn on big boy firearms.
    "Sight in at 25 METERS (about 82 feet) BEFORE you go" Explain please. I'm in a county where we can own firearms but we can't discharge them so I can't exactly practice in my backyard.
    fireplaceguy> Thank you for the offer of your phone number. I did appreciate that. Here's what my brother said about rugers- nice little rifles, no recoil, easy to take care of, accurate, good quality, and affordable.... excellent choice for beginners. He's got them with and without scopes. Do we want them with or without scopes for this weekend activity? The names of the scopes allude me for the moment but they sounded an awful lot like camera lens manufacturers. He also said something about somewhere down the road if I wanted to continue with more weekends that he had a Sixteen with a 22 conversion kit he could show me how to operate and that might help get me into a larger rifle or something like that. I got the impression that one was a favorite of his by the way he was talking about it but.... I wasn't paying much attention to be honest with you because I may or may not go to another weekend and I sorta tuned him out after he said he had the rugers we'd need in new or used. I will get to keep one if I want and he pretty much said if our nephew showed an interest that he'd let him keep the one he'll send for him to use too. I hate to ask a really tough question but about how much do these rugers cost since he wants to let us keep them? What the difference between new and used? If I tell him we only want used.... we're not talking hundreds of dollars each are we?
  18. ghrit

    ghrit Ambulatory anachronism Administrator Founding Member

    Sighting in -

    I'm going to ignore range safety procedures here, each place you shoot will have different rules. Here are the Gunner's Guru rules; they are inviolate everywhere. The Appleseed ROs will tell you where and when you can do what. Please forgive any assumptions that I make about your knowledge of gun safety, some things just bear repeating.

    Col "Jeff" Cooper advocated four basic rules of gun safety:<sup id="cite_ref-7" class="reference">[8]</sup>
    1. All guns are always loaded. Even if they are not, treat them as if they are.
    2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy. (For those who insist that this particular gun is unloaded, see Rule 1.)
    3. Keep your finger off the trigger till your sights are on the target. This is the Golden Rule. Its violation is directly responsible for about 60 percent of inadvertent discharges.
    4. Identify your target, and what is behind it. Never shoot at anything that you have not positively identified.
    I add that even if someone tells you it's unloaded, YOU check. If the teller of that tale asks if you don't trust him, you don't, end of story.

    Google Cooper and have some reading.

    First things first, sit down at home and go over your rifle and figure out how it works, then you can go shoot.

    Now then: "Sighting in" is the process of getting your rifle to hit where you aim. I'll state categorically that no rifle comes out of the box suited to your eyes. Very simple, but it takes a bit of time and ammunition. The best way if you can't do it on your property (and perhaps the only two ways) is to find a friendly farmer or bite the bullet and rent some range time at your local club or commercial range.

    I had a quick google of how to sight in, but couldn't find one that addressed iron sights. I believe, rather firmly, that beginners should shoot irons before adding the complexity of optics. However, here's a link to setting up scopes.
    How to Sight-In a Rifle
    Hawkes makes an assumption that you are already close to being "on paper" when you start his scope exercise, which is NOT reliable. That said, you can ignore the references to scopes and pretend your iron sights are a scope. So -

    Put a target up at 25 feet, and squeeze (ask me why I say "squeeze" if you don't already know) off three rounds at the bulls-eye. They will be "on paper" and in a nice, small group, we hope. If your sight picture and hold are consistent, the group might be one hole. (You like that - a LOT, regardless of where they are on the paper.) BTW, this should all be done from a prone position OR a bench. Google "prone position" to see what that looks like; for here, suffice it to say that is the most stable position you can get into without a bench or other assistance. At this time, I won't go into a "proper sight picture" because to an extent that is up to you. Consistency, and only consistency, counts.

    Put up another target at 50 feet and repeat. Now, you can adjust the sights to bring the holes in the target closer to the bulls-eye. Shoot three more, and see where they land. Adjust the sights again, and repeat as necessary to get the bulls-eye full of holes.

    Hang a fresh target and repeat to be sure.

    Move to 25 meters, hang another target, and start practicing.

    I am deliberately ignoring how to position the rifle and yourself to get all this done, because the ROs will correct any errors you might have in that department, including breath control. What you need to do is get consistent with your sight picture so that it and you are repeatable. Your sight picture is what you see when you line the sights up with the bulls-eye and your eye is focused on the front sight, NOT the target. The bull will be fuzzy and that's okey dokey; there just is NO way that the human eye can focus at two different distances.

    Why 25 meters, you ask? Because that's what Appleseed does, and that will be fully explained at the event. One thing you might do if you have the time, inclination, and ammo, is to move out and shoot at 100 yards and refine your sights to hit the bull at that distance. The reason is that doing so is that it will reduce any error in the sight settings that don't show up at shorter distances. Once that is done, all you need to do is reset the elevation (you did write that down, didn't you?) for the shorter distance when you are ready to go to the event.

    Go to the Appleseed website and you'll find that they do NOT use bulls-eye targets, they use what they call the "redman" target, which is similar to what the military uses. You will need to revise your sight "picture" (and possibly adjust the elevation) to accommodate the red man, but it's a matter of how you see things to get that part done.

    Yes, they allow scopes. If that is how you and the guys are equipped, well, the process is the same. I can't recommend them for starters because there are some considerations you don't need when starting out.
  19. Equilibrium

    Equilibrium Monkey++

    I'll save this.... thank you. We can't discharge in our county. We can own firearms but we can't shoot them. I think air guns are the exception.
  20. BTPost

    BTPost Old Fart Snow Monkey Moderator

    Scopes are made of Glass, and so are Camera Lenses, and the best glass is used for both, so it would be reasonable for them to have the same OEMs...
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