Well should i go ahead and buy a dpms 5.56 then add a 6.8 upper? Is that a viable option ? I know 5.56 will take out a human, but it wont take out a bull elk. the 6.8 will do the later, and most every other animal I care to roast over fire. what mostly panicks me about the whole shtf scenario is that is 5.56 will dissapear before I can build up enough of a reserve to matter in the proverbial situation. It is above all a military round and whether it's made at lake city or not will be grabbed up at the snap of a finger. I know I'm sounding like some paranoid dilusional schitzophrenic by doing this but I'm really worried about this.shoked
#1 - Texas, Harris County to be precise, placed a bounty of $5.00 per wolf pelt or carcass. Hunting wolves for a bounty continued well into the early 1970's (look up Wolf's Corner). Red wolves also interbred with coyotes and the population of coyotes in this region carry a lot of wolf genomes and are a bit more aggressive than the run of the mill coyote. #2 - A practiced hand with a muzzle loading rifle could load, prime and fire 3 shots from his .50 caliber muzzle loader in under 1 minute. When paper cartridges came into use, the speed doubled. #3 - A cougar is a known human-aggressive predator, there are entire web sites devoted to victims of cougar attacks. Cougars are thick as fleas on a hound dog in my neck of the woods. Literally. read more here: Mountain Lion Attacks from 2001 to Now #4 - Most large predators were actively sought and destroyed once they started taking farm animals, otherwise they were left alone, except for wolves in Texas. See #1. #5 - While 99.9% of the time, wild predators typically do not seek out or attack humans actively, they will seek out your farm animals. However, that .1% is a wounded or sick animal that is starving and will take any prey, two or four legged. Additionally, as seen from the above site, cougars are losing their fear of humans and starting to think of them as dinner. #6 - Most wolves were poisoned or trapped. Not many were shot out of hand. Those that were shot out of hand were likely shot when actively stalking/attacking farm animals. Just my dos centavos. I'll stick with the .308 personal choice for personal reasons.
Since you are using scare tactics of a few attacks to justify, let me put it into perspective: <center>Statistics of Attacks </center> The current reported attack rate in the U.S. and Canada is ~6 attacks per year, with just under 1 death per year. This number has been constant since at least 1991, with no evidence at all that the rate has changed. <table align="center" border="2" cellpadding="5"><tbody><tr bgcolor="#99ccff"><th rowspan="2">Year</th><th colspan="2">U.S.A. and Canada</th><th colspan="2">California </th></tr><tr bgcolor="#99ccff"><th># of Attacks</th><th># of Deaths</th><th># of Attacks</th><th># of Deaths </th></tr><tr align="right"><td>1991</td><td>4</td><td>2</td><td>0</td><td>0 </td></tr><tr align="right"><td>1992</td><td>4</td><td>1</td><td>1</td><td>0 </td></tr><tr align="right"><td>1993</td><td>3</td><td>0</td><td>2</td><td>0 </td></tr><tr align="right"><td>1994</td><td>9</td><td>2</td><td>3</td><td>2 </td></tr><tr align="right"><td>1995</td><td>3</td><td>0</td><td>1</td><td>0 </td></tr><tr align="right"><td>1996</td><td>6</td><td>1</td><td>0</td><td>0 </td></tr><tr align="right"><td>1997</td><td>7</td><td>1</td><td>0</td><td>0 </td></tr><tr align="right"><td>1998</td><td>9</td><td>0</td><td>0</td><td>0 </td></tr><tr align="right"><td>1999</td><td>6</td><td>1</td><td>0</td><td>0 </td></tr><tr align="right"><td>2000</td><td>8</td><td>0</td><td>0</td><td>0 </td></tr><tr align="right"><td>2001</td><td>7</td><td>1</td><td>0</td><td>0 </td></tr><tr align="right"><td>2002</td><td>5</td><td>0</td><td>0</td><td>0 </td></tr><tr align="right"><td>2003</td><td>2</td><td>1</td><td>0</td><td>0 </td></tr><tr align="right"><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr align="right"><td>total</td><td>73</td><td>10</td><td>7</td><td>2 </td></tr><tr align="right" bgcolor="#99ccff"><td>Average per year</td><td>5.6</td><td>0.8</td><td>0.5</td><td>0.2 </td></tr></tbody></table> Source: Mountain Lion Attacks On People in the U.S. and Canada Compare the number of mountain lion attacks with say the number of violent crime in TX: Texas Crime Rates 1960 - 2009 Murders are around 3K..... which is your largest threat? I don't think it's the 4 legged predators. Basing your SHTF gun/caliber off of a predator attack is poor judgment IMHO. That might change if I lived in AK or possibly Northern US where grizzly, wolf, and mountain lions all rule. Anywhere MW and South could adequately be covered by a 5.56 weapon. A wolf is not invincible against a 5.56 weapon. Neither is a mountain lion. Maybe I can get Quig to relate the weapon used in his input to this thread: http://www.survivalmonkey.com/forum/turf-surf-hunting-fishing/14365-wolf-what-would-you-do-6.html
You could. Buying an AR10 and AR15 would be an alright scenario too. You will end up two rifles in the end anyways even if you start off buying 2 uppers and 1 lower. It always works that way.... trust me. I know for a fact that you can kill anything in ID with a .308. I think in this case, all things considered, I would recommend an AR10 and AR15. Get the AR15 in a small LW package and the AR10 in a more moderate weight meant for reaching out a bit. Feed it a steady diet of OTMs. Something with a SS barrel and free float it- 18" to 20". It will be a bit heavier than the AR15, but when you pair them together with an Eberlestock pack, you can cover the gambit.
Thanks for that Bruce. That is a very informative post. I've lived in two different "bear countries" and have only encountered black bears to date. The information on brown bears really helps put "Northern" life into perspective. Most people around here don't even know there are black bears. Their habitat is about 2-3K feet above where most people live, so they have no clue. I regularly spend time up to 9K feet and I've seen the spore everywhere. I knew my chances were good of seeing a bear that first day of deer season, but I was hoping to see a deer first. The bear came first and I gave her a wide bearth. The results were pleasant for her and I. In WA, I ran into several black bears. Never an issue there either. That insight you provided will be useful if I do encounter a "brownie".
In the post The government kills were with 30-06 and 308's and 10g from a plane. the last was a 10-22 by the family. Your retarded if you go into wolf country with only a 10-22. HD Carry a 556 by all means do, just don't try and tell me it's the end all for everyone, its not. We won a lot of Wars with a 308. cal How many with 556? I prefer 308 to 556 I prefer 45 to 9mm Use what you can hit the buzz button with. a miss and your dead. plain and simple. For those of you quoting weight it too heavy... i guess it was too much to carry in WWI and II they must have been stronger back then then today..LOL
Thank you for your advice, I really appreciate it. I will add a lr-308 back into my needs list for shtf.
To address your statement regarding "scare tactics": I was using examples to illustrate a point. Not even extreme examles. Just examples. As far as basing my caliber choice off of possible predator attacks, well that is as ignorant as not basing my caliber choice on sheer versatility. As for the two legged predators...let them come. I have other weapons and tactics for them while we have rule of law. After TSHTF, that is a whole new ballgame. As for the "invincible to 5.56" statement: I've seen coyotes shot with a 5.56 (with visible blood spray and knockdown at ~250 yards) and the animal gets up and runs off into the brush. Sure, probably to die from internal hemorrhaging. Fact is, at 250 yards with a.308, the animal goes down and stays down. The 5.56 round is an effective killing round, only if it strikes a target with sufficient speed to induce fragmentation of the round (2600-2700 ft per second depending on outside conditions {under this speed, you can't guarantee fragmentation}). Military doctors have even reported that at closer ranges, the 5.56 fragmented and the wound cavity is bigger than the 7.62x51 Nato. (Fragmentation is based on ammo type, fps travelling at impact, and barrel length - the distance ranges between 90-200 meters. Some 5.56's using the shorter 14" barrels and loaded with the 62 gr M855 will NOT fragment, as our soldiers in Afghanistan are finding out). Alrighty then... I still say .308 for me. I'd rather be able to kill 2 or 4 legged vermin at 800 yards or get 20 shots at them from 800 yards as the vermin tries to close to 600 yards! If you can annihilate your target from a range that they have little to no effect you are more effective as a single unit.
If you plan on having the same logistical support we had in WWI & WWII and more manpower than one man i guess it's a moot point... If on the other hand you plan on buggin out with no logistics train and only what you can carry on your back weight is important... an all out war vs. getting to a bugout location is very different... The discussion was multiple weapons and multiple calibres with what i assumed would include a weight limit as to what you would be carrying... with a .556 you can carry more ammo or needed items to get to your location...and have a decent weapon that will protect you from most problems along the way to a bug out location An AR-10 is a great weapon in a real war with logistics i would want one...but in the given scenario the tradeoff in weight vs range and fewer rounds is not there... just my opinion...
AR10 vs AR15 been thinking of this myself. AR 15 Platform is hard to beat, I may build a 6.5 Grendel with a 24 inch barrel. Russia sells the brass cased ammo, I believe the cases are formed from 7.62 by 39 brass. It will snap on to an existing lower as well, the bolt carrier group (minus bolt) and many other parts will swap with the 5.56 variant. (And the .50 Beowulf I have is great, but ammo availability is hell) I have shot two of them. One of the owners is a reloader, and he keeps a steady stock of 1000 on hand, with @ 1000 brass cases/bullets laying around. They drop less than a .308 at distance, as they were designed for 1000 yard paper punching. (The Swedes favorite bullet for some time was the 6.5 for large game) Finally, I wouldn't trade my Savage .308 for any autoloader, I really like that gun. Also, my DPMS guns are great. Not sure about now, but every DPMS gun I bought has a trigger like a gate latch. But they are all sub 1/2" MOA. Thanks for asking.
If you do decide to go with an AR 10 platform be sure to look at cost of mags by mfg of the rifle. I went with the Rock River version due to the ability to use Fal mags at 10.00 a pop vs the 50.00 proprietary used by bushmaster and the like.
You are right on most all of your statements here. I have seen people and animals shot well with a .30 caliber and they for whatever reason don't drop then and there. To say that it happens 100% of the time is just plain wrong. Read a few AARs from the great wars and it is better illustrated. Better yet, watch a man get up after being ripped with an M240 and you'll see more clearly. As for fragmentation with 5.56, that is true when we are dealing with M855 or M195 ball ammo. Keep in mind, if you are limiting 5.56 to ball in this analysis, the same must be done with 30 caliber. How many people here hunt anything with .308 ball ammo? I'd probably say not that many if any here. I don't. It's not responsible. The single difference in most people's hunting and wartime experiences is the type of projectile used. If we could shoot Noslers in the 60 grain weight overseas, all this misleading crap would end. Alas, here we are not limited to simple ball ammo. Like I said before, I won both and will use both. 5.56 is not the end all be all, but it works for its intended purpose. I would pit it against any wolf out there without a bit of worry. As illustrated in QS's, post both .30 caliber and .22LR are capable of killing a wolf. I'd say the ability to do so falls more with the ability of the shooter and less with the caliber used. We do this all the time in N. America. We overgun to counter bad shot placement. Hence the introduction of the super short magnums and other ridiculous fast/heavy cartridges that hunters "need" these days. I won't say QS doesn't need a .308 being in ID. I will say the OP in TX could be better served by a 5.56 caliber weapon. He is far less likely to see big predators than QS. That was the only point I was making here. It seems everyone else answered him with THEIR perspective from THEIR location and that just doesn't pass the common sense test. He could get a lighter, more accurate platform with more parts availability by choosing a 5.56 weapon. He could become proficient enough to kill easily out to 600M with the right load. He's not facing large packs of wolves and grizzly bears.
I priced one yesterday at my gun shop. A DPMS LR 308 AP4 with Adjustable stock and Quad rail is 1199.00 + 99.00 tax = 1298.99 minus my Bushy M4A3 trade in of 550.00 = 748.99 Which isn't bad. I think I'll start saving and think about it. That's a lot of groceries and water in the storeroom. My M4 spits 69 gr or 62 gr SP's all day long into 1- 1 1/2 " groups. it would take a deer, and big cats we have around here. But my ultimate goal is one battle rifle, a S/G, and two pistols if I have to bug out. Thanks for everybody's input, i think this has given everybody some good food for thought. With the new BATFE nominee that wants all autos banned maybe I better keep the bolt gun and drop it in a tube at my 'spot'.
Fair enough statement that the OP may be better served by a 5.56 in Texas. May.Then again, may not, I'll explain below. One quick point I would address first is: I did indicate the fragmentation is based on ammo type, range, barrel length. Agreed, most people are not using ball ammo, however it is the fragmentation of the ball ammo that makes the 5.56 so much more devastating than a .308 FMJ at closer ranges. I believe that those answering the OP as asked, based on their perspective and their location absolutely passes a common sense test. No person can answer any question with information outside of their perspective, or their location unless they are versed, experienced, and able to mitigate their answer with statements indicating they have experience outside of their current circumstances (much like yourself). You know, this thread has stumbled upon the common issue with TSHTF/TEOTWAWKI questions about firearms. The absolute answer is to judge for oneself what is right, based on their location, situation, and perspective of their needs. No single firearm, whether it be a bolt action rifle, handgun, or semi-auto rifle, is going to be the absolute correct one for every single person every single time. This like many other things is based on need/ability/affordability/situation. Also YMMV, and the final choice is yours and yours alone. I say look at the data (good and bad) about each weapon under consideration. Closely examine your circumstances, your plans, your finances, and your abilities. Make your choice, and be content that it is right for you. Just my .02, FWIW.
Which is, of course, why we are here; to get the concerns on the table so intelligent choices can be made by the individual. For me to take (say) Quigley_Sharps BOB and duplicate it would probably find me in dire straights pretty quickly. Our situations are that different. If I tried to bring an MN (or other long barrel) to bear on a zombie up here, it would take half an hour to untangle it from the bide a wee bushes. An AR format is the way to go in the hills, your choice of caliber. (But the MN will work on the two track coming up the hill.)
The OP asked for help with his situation. Not an opinion on what works well in Alaska or Montana. Obviously, the two are completely different. A bit of critical thinking on the subject will allow one to think outside of their own perspective (or draw on past experiences) to help him out. I think in the end, we did. As for me, I do have experience in the Pacific NW, Southwest, Southeast, Midwest, and several small holes on other continents. I firmly believe that the desert SW that I currently live in is adequately coverd by 5.56. Predators here are not like they are up north. Unless you have a range where you can practice at 800M regularly, a .308 won't help you. Most people don't have that. Here, my range extends to 600. Because of that, my 20" AR10 has taken a back seat to my 16" AR10 or 16" AR15 because it will cover the range at which I can realistically practice. To have a LR weapon does not mean you have the capability. Practice is required, especially for reading wind at such distances. Since gusts here are 30-50MPH, because I can see 1K does not mean I can shoot 1K- especially without practice. That limiting factors is why I choose a 5.56 or short .308. Agreed 100%. This is the mess we always find ourselves in when this question comes up. Nearly all the SHTF gun posts end with disagreements. It really is a loaded question. No two people will ever agree. That's why I believe the best advice is go common in terms of calibers and platforms. Common helps when things get really tough. That's the best advice I can give.
Good post, thanks Original header and post AR-15 VS AR-10 Some great advice in this thread and a different view is always great to see. I missed the part that this was and AR15 vs an AR 10 in Texas thread. I would also think about Texas and depending on the area you live in and the Chances of the Drug cartels and Mexican Army showing up with Heavy machine gun and vehicles etc.
i pulled up some Ballistic gel tests with the .223 and the .308 and both will do great damage, but the .308 would excel at longer range. Hope I didn't start a Ford vs Chevy thing. I'm going to try to shoot an AR-10 and see if I like it. QS, I didn't take in account the Cartel/Military factor.
I did, that is why I am packing a .308. The Mexican Military and Policia have been involved with the cartels for years. YouTube - Mexican Military Incursions in USA
Since Dpms are high quality weapons, and they are Relatively innexpensive, So I am going with both a 5.56 and a .308.........My sidearm I'm using is a smith & Wesson M & P .40 cal compact, I've had for a few years since my days as a security officer. I may add a revolver Have not decided yet. Why am I going to go with both? They both serve a purpose, and just the fact I cannot decide on which one to get. So might as well as be safe than sorry I'll get both.
