Are combat sidearms worth it?

Discussion in 'Firearms' started by AxesAreBetter, May 27, 2017.


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  1. arleigh

    arleigh Goophy monkey

    I have had a few events the hand gun was the most appropriate tool in a defensive action with animals, however a brother in law I was hunting with , had a very practical pistol experience .
    His focus was to the west and he heard a thicket crack, and slowly looked behind himself and a buck was looking right at him .
    Had he taken the time to swing the rifle into position he would have lost the opportunity (brush was heavy). So he did the next best thing and drew his hand gun and made the shot successfully .
    Personally having been hunted by cats ,at different times, and very close encounters.
    I was glad to have my .357 mag revolver on my side.
    Had the cats jumped me, a rifle would be difficult to maneuver, rolling in the weeds .
    When I hike in the woods, I form a plan in the event of a number of things, especially in very complicated environments.
    In S&R your looking for clues and reading track ,all the time , after a while it becomes a lifestyle when ever your in the woods .
    I suppose it depends on the woods your use to , some here on the forum don't carry .
     
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  2. Tully Mars

    Tully Mars Metal weldin' monkey

    Personally I don't consider any of the AR/AK "pistols" pistols. They are SBRs. I mean no offense, and I'm not in favor of any more Batfag rules, but they ain't pistols. They may look cool on TV or the range but I don't wanna "go to war with them." If that was my only option on a pistol, I'd say screw it, carry a carbine length AR/AK with more mags instead of the "pistol."
    The shorter the barrel and gas system on a AR the more likely you are going to have issues with it. Not always, but often enough so that I wouldn't bet the farm on them.
    If you want a pistol, buy one. If you don't, buy more mags for your long gun.
    I would go with a quality pistol.
    JMT's

    @Ura-Ki Nice pistol. Looks like we share many common ideas with regards to firearms;)
     
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  3. Ura-Ki

    Ura-Ki Grampa Monkey

    I'm sort of leaning hard on the SBR side of things in the Carbine length VS AR/AK pistol. I like my Barrels of around 11 to 14 inches so I don't loose so much M.V. and I still retain most of the accuracy potential. I am more concerned with the overall size of the weapon, the shorter I can collapse it down, the better, which is why the H-K makes sence to me, but the AR has too many advantages to discount. In the end, I did my quasi Retro AR the way I did it as the best trade off possible over all. In my mind, the newer Robenson Arms XCR or the FN SCAR-16 would do about the same SBR'ed as my AR, but at close to 4 times the cost, same as the H-K or one of the retro build AR-180's
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2017
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  4. M118LR

    M118LR Caution: Does not play well with others.

    Each weapon in your toolbox has an effective distance. While a shotgun can be more lethal at sidearm range, it is also 3 times heavier and far more cumbersome. As I see it you must weigh the advantages/disadvantages of the weapons you elect to carry within the zones of engagement (target removal distances) on a tiered scale.
    1. nose to nose.
    2. 21 feet to 100 yards.
    3. 100 to 1000+ yards.
     
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  5. Tully Mars

    Tully Mars Metal weldin' monkey

    The HK is a sharp piece, but pricey. My door gun is a 10" AR. NOTHING fancy on it, it was a build up. I plan on going back and dressing it up a bit, but nothing major. I can make CoM hits @ 100 yrds all day with it. I'm sure it will reach out further but I've not tried it. To me these type of weapons are for close range. A barrel shorter than 10" can start causing feed problems relating to the gas system. In my experience altering the gas tube size or port is sometimes needed for dependability and gets beyond many builders desires or capabilities.
    The HK SP-89 is a fun ride as well, but is chambered in a pistol calibre.
     
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  6. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    Up that 21 feet as needed to accommodate any physical or other limitations. That 21 feet is factually established based on healthy hustle of an attacker, but the age and ability factor has to be added in. Some folks need a LOT more time to react.
     
  7. M118LR

    M118LR Caution: Does not play well with others.

    I hear you, but I've always found it more difficult to clean the 75 yard turkeys, than to be in action at 21 feet. Just My Experience. (a 79 out of 80 average ain't that bad?)
     
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  8. Lone Gunman

    Lone Gunman Draw Varmint!

    Sidearms were only occasionally carried by frontline troops during both the: First and Second World Wars, Korea, and Vietnam. Two thoughts come to mind: One, most troops don't use pistols all that well at anything except extreme close range; and, two, M4's and M16's make really lousy pikes; and the entire M16/AR-15 family makes a very poor platform on which to mount a bayonet.

    History, however, clearly reveals that pike-like weapons and substantial knives have been, and still can be, very useful on the battlefield. (I've known soldiers who carried: an M16 rifle or an M4 carbine, and a Beretta M9 pistol, along with a large field knife at all times. If they were wearing a vest then the pistol and large knife were also there.)

    Here at home, however, exactly the opposite situation can be true: I sometimes shoot at lonely and remote public ranges. Years of experience shooting at places like this have taught me that just going there with a couple of pistols will, nonetheless, leave a shooter wide open and vulnerable to a surprise attack. (Usually for your gun!)

    Consequently, I'll often keep an 'M-Forgery' fitted with an installed 30 round clip close-at-hand while I'm busy practicing my pistol shooting; and I never go down to the targets without slinging that carbine over my shoulder. Why? Because, should you ever really need it in the same way that I once did, a pistol just might turn out to be 'not enough gun'. Years ago, now, the exact same thing happened to a close friend of mine, too. If there are, even, 15 yards between you and the target then carrying only a pistol might not be enough.
     
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  9. Kingfish

    Kingfish Self Reliant

    Exactly what I was saying in the other thread. No single gun does it all. Each one has a different range, purpose, etc.
     
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  10. 3M-TA3

    3M-TA3 Cold Wet Monkey

    Your last paragraph brought up another thought - shouldn't we be practicing using our load out sidearms while carrying our rifles since we would be doing that when a pistol gave us an advantage over a rifle at very close range? I mean in a real situation you aren't likely going to set your rifle down while you use the pistol and then come back for it later even if it was jammed or otherwise not operational.
     
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  11. Tully Mars

    Tully Mars Metal weldin' monkey

    Not necessarily.
    If a person is using something like a single point sling you would just let it hang.
     
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  12. 3M-TA3

    3M-TA3 Cold Wet Monkey

    That's kind of what I was getting at - having the rifle in the same position as you would in a real situation. For example, in the single point sling scenario can you draw the pistol efficiently? Does is change your balance while moving with your pistol drawn and how does it affect your shooting?
     
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  13. AxesAreBetter

    AxesAreBetter Monkey+++

    I normally rotate the stock off my shoulder, holding the longarm by the foregrip, as I am getting my pistol into play. Transition to cover and/or sling to reload.
     
  14. M118LR

    M118LR Caution: Does not play well with others.

    I've got to leave the CQB drift on the side for an instant!

    Kingfish, I'm not going to debate your reasoning, but I am interjecting my experience based on primary weapons. From time immortal there are limits on what you shall actually carry. Your PRIMARY WEAPON needs to be able to meet or exceed every condition that you could face on the "Battlefield", that's why it's your primary. Is it going to be more difficult to wield in this situation or that? YES. But the other weapons that you can actually carry may become PRIMARY WEAPONS in specialized circumstances. That is why they are noted as secondary or tertiary.

    So now on to the CQB drift.
    Is a 20 x 20 foot room large?
    Now that I've asked the rhetorical, you ain't going to bring your secondary sidearm into play effectively at less than a 21 foot distance, so the Pig-sticker at the end of your primary is what's going to bring you "Home" !!! Or, you might get off an effective round or two from your Fully Automatic Assault Weapon if your predisposed. But you can bet your last dollar that you will end up needing your last ditch blade as the FINAL SOLUTION to the problem. Just My Experiences.
     
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  15. DKR

    DKR Raconteur of the first stripe

    That has got to be the world's best flashlight.

    As for a sidearm:
    As a unit medic, to claim GC rights, I had to give up a long gun.
    Eff that.
    Folks at the hospital would freak out when I showed up at the supply point carrying both a GAU-5 (CAR-15) and a 45ACP - a pistol I bought for myself as the USAF didn't issue at the time.

    A 45 Colt was good for my Grandpa in France
    A 45 was good for my Father and Uncle in the PTO
    A 45 was good for me
    and my son was issued a M-9 in 9mm. He carried a shotgun instead. As second weapon is a given, the only question for a Grunt is -- which one?
     
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  16. Tully Mars

    Tully Mars Metal weldin' monkey

    You are right. I misread your post. Sorry Bud!:)
     
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  17. Kingfish

    Kingfish Self Reliant

    Your primary weapon can and does change depending on your location. If I am watching the choke point where the range to the kill zone is 200 yards MY PRIMARY IS my bolt action 30-06. If I am out on patrol ? my Ar-15. At home not engaged it is my Side arm with my shotgun close at hand. If I had to go to war or into a fight my AR-15 is my primary. If Im running for MY life again my AR-15. If I were on the great plains where I could see a thousand yards I would hope to be holding a .338 0r .300 winmag . I wont be carrying my so called battle rifle around the yard with me when I have others out on patrol and sentries watching the choke. Everything is not a battlefield. I have the luxury of being able to access different weapons. As I am dug in and defending not out in harms way. Harm has to find me. I think we are saying pretty much the same thing. We have a different plan if it all goes south. You are going to sail to an Island. I am already at my Island.
     
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  18. 3M-TA3

    3M-TA3 Cold Wet Monkey

    No worries - it's sometimes hard to get the point across clearly in writing. I stub my toe while putting my foot in my mouth plenty...
     
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  19. M118LR

    M118LR Caution: Does not play well with others.

    From the instant "Over Here", becomes exactly like "In Country Over There" you are in Harms Way. All the luxuries that you perceive you have, shall dissipate within a moments notice. Ain't going to be any rear echelon R&R with foot massages & Mai Tai's.
    (i.e. when the aggressors torch the choke point utilizing the wind at thier back, and efficiently & indiscriminately exterminate all those attempting valiantly to dose the flames so others may survive.) {you have probably got a fire break already cut.} But it's way to much to attempt to control the entire "Battlefield" at all times. JMO.
    I most strongly recommend that you treat every nano-second as the last one you had prior to being on "The Battlefield!" Whatever gear you have equipped yourself with prior to that unannounced moment in time, shall be exactly what you shall have to defend yourself and others with from that nano-second forward. If you have decided (aren't equipped) you didn't need a combat sidearm prior to the opening bell, you had better come to grips that you've got all 12 rounds to fight without one. There is no Front Page Headline that the World has gone to Hell in a hand basket in your neighborhood, until after it has happened.

    We do have a different plan if everything goes south, you are 100 percent correct. I'm not willing to allow any of the others of my clan to experience the harsh reality of "The Battlefield" and I shall do all I can to ensure the continuous transportation of them outside of the realm of "The Battlefield". Your island is where you have stationed you and all you love "Root-hog or die", and "The Battlefield" either conforms to all your preconceived notions or the results are............
    You are on the Good Guy side so I wish Y'all luck, but brother you bit off allot of work.

    So I'll once again state that I am a firm believer in a primary "Battle Rifle", a secondary "Combat Sidearm", and a Tertiary "Blade" at all times. JMHO.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2017
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  20. Kingfish

    Kingfish Self Reliant

    Wrong again. Let them torch. Let them burn . water does not burn my friend. They would be further ahead to leave the cat tails and try crawling though the muck using what little cover the cat tails give them. Hell I would relish them burning cover. They still have to advance . They wont be fired on until they are in the open and then. God help anyone on that road or in the water.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2017
  1. M118LR
  2. M118LR
  3. ghrit
  4. melbo
  5. melbo
  6. melbo
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