Armed Private Security in Public Venues

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Ura-Ki, Nov 21, 2016.

  1. Ura-Ki

    Ura-Ki Grampa Monkey

    I Just ran into an issue some of my fellow monkeys in Oregon will be facing! A movie theater in Beaverton has hired Armed security guards to guard the Weapon Free Zone's! While it may seem a great idea to many, I have some questions to pose to you. Are these Guards LEO? Who grants them authority to carry firearms, who do they answer to, who are they overseen buy, how are they trained, and to what level? Who is accountable should they act? These ARE NOT LEO, nor are they Deputies, so what Weight or force of LAW do they operate under? Who do I go to to Redress any issues I may have? Private Security means Limited Liability, and now we have said agents armed with firearms, what limits of liability are in place should one have to shoot? Does any one else have hair standing up on the back of the neck?!?!?! This worries me more then a few signs warning me they don't like me being personally armed! I would much reather be able to decide what level of personal security I may wish to provide my family and my self! Your thoughts?
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  2. Homer Simpson

    Homer Simpson Monkey+++

    Good question that I have no answer for.

    I do my best to limit my dealings in victim disarmament zones. Here in SC, that is fairly easy, except for government buildings.
    Trouble, Sgt Nambu and Ura-Ki like this.
  3. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    If they are not Commisiond LEOs in That jurisdiction, then they carry, as allowed by the State & Local Statutes, and have no more Authority than the average Citizen, ACCEPT they have the backing of the Property Owner, which will be the same Authority granted by State and local Statutes to any other Property Owner. State and local Statutes, prevail in these questions, especially in the Citzens Arrest Statute.
    Witch Doctor 01 and Ura-Ki like this.
  4. 3M-TA3

    3M-TA3 Cold Wet Monkey

    I'd rather be in charge of my own protection, thank you.
  5. Ura-Ki

    Ura-Ki Grampa Monkey

    My Main concern is Liability! If they are not Law enforcement, how can they do anything legally, and what gives them the right to enforce something they are not empowered by law to do!
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  6. DKR

    DKR Raconteur of the first stripe

    That "Public Venue" - is it in reality owned by a private party? I suspect that it is private property.

    You have a choice. Follow the rules the Private Property Owner has set down
    stay off of that private property.
    Everyone on the board seems to be all about private property rights - well, that cuts both ways.

    As far as the so-called "Citizens Arrest" laws. Each State has a different set of rules, some Counties and Cities chip in with more rules of their own. You would do well to read and understand those rules.

    More and more large retail venues are owned by large, multinational Corporations. I'll get back to this in a bit.

    Alaska Statute (AS) 12.25.030 says either a private person or a peace officer without a warrant may arrest a person:
    • **For a crime committed or attempted in their presence or
    • **If they have reasonable cause to believe the person committed a felony, even if not in their presence.

    If the crime is a misdemeanor, neither a citizen nor a peace officer may arrest without a warrant unless it was committed or attempted in their presence. If you think someone committed a misdemeanor but you didn't see it, call the police, tell them what you know and let them decide whether to try and get an arrest warrant.

    AS 11.81.390 says a private person may use non-deadly force when they reasonably believe it's necessary to arrest or stop the escape or attempted escape of someone they reasonably believe has committed a misdemeanor in their presence or a felony (not necessarily in their presence).

    So, yes, in Alaska, that mall cop can arrest you. That mall cop can detain you until they turn you over to the "real" cops. You, of course, can sue the living crap out of them - if you can afford a lawyer.
    You vs that large, multinational Corporation - with a legal staff. You get to do the math. Good luck with that.

    Typically, they (private security) will issues you a trespass order banning you from the property for various periods - to include permanent banning. Show up again, and don't be surprised if you are arrested for trespassing. Steal something (over xxxx.xx $) or start a fight, and I suspect you'll be cooling your heels in a Security office waiting for the Man to show up. Resist arrest and I suspect it will get ugly.

    I would note that some commercial properties may have a mix of 'private security' (ie Rent -a-Cops) and actual property Security employees. Each will typically have different levels of indemnification.

    If the person you are dealing with has 1) a uniform and 2) a weapon (firearm) - they will have (supposedly) received some training. BTW - that training is normally open to anyone who wants to pay a fee to attend the class.... I would note the insurance costs for the company employing armed guards is...significant.

    Bottom line - If some strange guy tells I'm "under arrest" and tells me to get into his car, I'm not doing it. The outcome could be interesting.

    ( see Alaska Statutes: AS 12.25.030. Grounds For Arrest By Private Person or Peace Officer Without Warrant. or
    Alaska Statutes Title 12. Code of Criminal Procedure § 12.25.030 | FindLaw (different format)
    SOA actual language - Alaska Statutes 2015 )

    As always, YMMV.
    Trouble, Dont, ditch witch and 2 others like this.
  7. Yard Dart

    Yard Dart Vigilant Monkey Moderator

    DKR said it well.
    For liability, the property/business owner are culpable for all actions on that premise by their employees. It will only take a mistake or two....and the lawsuits to follow,,, and those business practices of places having armed security in a gun free zone, will have to be refined if not completely thrown out. Lawsuits based on everything from infringement of rights by innocents due to illegal arrest, death of a bystander or the lack of proper training and procedures for sure would be the grounds for financial repercussions.
    Ura-Ki likes this.
  8. Tevin

    Tevin Monkey+++

    In my state, there is licensing for armed security that are not sworn LEOs (think armored car drivers and bank security). What the licensing basically means is they can cary weapons in situations that go beyond civilian conceal/carry, but they are not LEOs.

    As you probably know, when you're on private property, you go by their rules. They or their agents have the right to enforce the rules, kick someone out, protect their personnel, clients, and assets (by armed force if needed), or detain someone for law enforcement...just like you can do on your own property. That they are armed is kind of irrelevant. The guards are acting on the authority of the theater management. Being armed/unarmed does not make anything different.

    I see this as a matter of private property rights. I don't necessarily agree with it, but it is their call to make.
    Trouble, Mountainman and Ura-Ki like this.
  9. Ura-Ki

    Ura-Ki Grampa Monkey

    I think you guys are tracking with me! Good, i'm not off my rocker here! I had an issue with "Armed Security" just a few days ago, and it ended badly for the guard and his employer, so this issue hits awful close to home for me!
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  10. DKR

    DKR Raconteur of the first stripe

    Weeeeeell??? (taps foot) Give! don't leave us hanging.
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  11. Ura-Ki

    Ura-Ki Grampa Monkey

    Security Dude sees me walking down the street headed to my truck, and I guess he thought I looked like a person of interest that had been shopping with the five finger discount! He rolls up on me and starts in on the hostility with a side of questions! I told him I was not who he was looking for and to bugger off before things get ugly! #1) Illegal detainment #2) Illegal search and seizure #3) assault with a deadly weapon............ He didn't back off, sure I was trouble, and that's just what he got! A quick disarmament and take down with broken Meta's and a call to the local constable for pick up after explaining why I did what I did, and how my rights and personal no fly zone had been breached, and he got arrested and fired for said offenses! If not an official LEO, he has no right to stop me and ask me any thing, #1! He has no right to ask for my I.D. #2 , he has no right to take any action toward me unwarranted, and he has no right to threaten me with a weapon and expect me not to react with force up to and including lethal!!! SO, This is why I have a problem with Armed Security, they think because they are permitted to have a weapon, they have more power and can act more aggressive to "stop" some one with out the same level of authority as LEO and they can use force including lethal and seem self empowered to do so! That he drew on me could have gotten him killed all the way dead, and he had no right or reason to do so! I see this as the Nanny state empowering Mercenaries to Protect us, with out actually protecting us, actually making a bad situ even worse! One dude standing next to a door with a gun may stop One tango, but a few intent on harming the many, No chance in hell!
  12. Yard Dart

    Yard Dart Vigilant Monkey Moderator

    Well from the sounds of it, you were no longer on private property.....?!
    Ura-Ki likes this.
  13. Gator 45/70

    Gator 45/70 Monkey+++

    Concealed means concealed! You need to ask yourself , How many times have you shown your D**k in the last year?
  14. Tempstar

    Tempstar Monkey+++

    I worked in the field at Charlotte Motor Speedway and carried a 9mm because I was also a corrections officer. I would have NEVER pulled a weapon unless a life was in jeopardy. There was nothing in the place worth the lawsuits, and all of the other LEO types working the event had the same line of thinking. We were just a show of force. Scary is when Joe Bob Sixpak gets a security job and a pistol.
    Trouble, Sgt Nambu, Ura-Ki and 2 others like this.
  15. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    So, @Ura-Ki Are you going to testify against this Idiot Yahoo... Or just let it go, as a Lesson in Civil Rights? Should be Felony Charges, so if convicted, he will lose all his Gun Rights, and Right to Vote...
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  16. techsar

    techsar Monkey+++

    Although from your description of the encounter you were in the right, keep in mind some areas use LEOs (as in real, POST certified) for "private security."
    You may have just used one of your nine lives... ;)
    Be safe!
    Gator 45/70 and Ura-Ki like this.
  17. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    Not even an Off-Duty LEO, has the Right to Stop a Civilian, without Probable Cause... that would stand up in Court... Just saying "He looked Hinky" Doesn't cut it, as per SCOTUS Precident..... I have walked away from such Inquries, and even if I decide to play his Game, my ID PROFERED, IS MY Passport... You can't Imagiin the discussions I have had in such situations, with LEOs, about using a Passport for ID... They ALWAYS ask for a Drivers License... and I ALWAYS ask them if the saw me Driving? Some get really "Ticked Off"... My Passport, documents that I AM a US CITIZEN, my Birthday, and Place of Birth, Period... and that is ALL I am REQUIRED to Provide... Local and State LEOs do NOT have access to the State Department Passport Database, OnLine, so that is ALL the info they get, without an Arrest.
  18. DKR

    DKR Raconteur of the first stripe

    In my books I call them APEs - Auxiliary Peace Enforcers..... but that's fiction.
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  19. Ura-Ki

    Ura-Ki Grampa Monkey

    Correct, He was off his rez by at least a block! and not even with in sight of it!

    From what the Actual Leo responded, this guy was at one point a Cop that couldn't hack the job, so he went armed security instead, but still thought of him self as an officer! As to using one of my 9, not with this guy!

    Not sure what I will do, I think it depends on what the D.A. has to say about it! He all ready lost his job, and because it is a felony to brandish a firearm ( intent to use) so I may go ahead and press, but as far as my desire to do so, NO, I think him loosing his job should be enough for me! IF the D.A. wants to press ( and knowing her, She might) I may have no choice! Will see!
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 22, 2016
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  20. Ura-Ki

    Ura-Ki Grampa Monkey

    Funny thing, That security guard had no idea I was armed, and he had no idea he could be over powered by some one! When the officers told him I was Ex Mil with experience in close work, he just about passed out! I don't like any bit of this, it's why the deal up in my old A.O. in Oregon gets me riled up, I hate that there are now people out there in public doing what this dude did, and they think they can because there "Professionals" empowered to do so, instead of calling it in and having real LEO deal with it! If it comes down to it, it should be a LEO deal, not some "Mall Cop" with a nickle slick badge and a gun!
    Trouble and Homer Simpson like this.
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