Assault on Waco

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by TailorMadeHell, Sep 17, 2006.

  1. TailorMadeHell

    TailorMadeHell Lurking Shadow Creature

    Just got through watching the Discovery channel program on the Waco incident. Showed me a lot of things that could happen in a gooberment infringement on your rights. When it happened, I was not a big news watcher nor follower of world events. Was just a sheep walking around with my own petty problems on my mind.

    They showed messages that David had released and they played the radio message he taped. They showed that Clinton and Reno both downplayed their parts in the massacare as 'Had to be done'. After all, it was the Davidians that ran tanks into their own buildings. It was the Davidians that were smashing up vehicles outside. It was the Davidians that broke into the place and started shooting it out with themselves. Right?

    It opened my eyes to a lot of stuff. Basically it boils down to in order to oppose any Domestic Terrorist Agency already here, you have to follow the letter of the law that they prescribe for all sheeple while at the same time hoping and trying in vain to eject those morons from power. It is a sad state of affairs. So what if he owned fully auto weapons. That would get him a charge and send him to jail. So what he didn't walk out and say here I am, arrest me. They could have taken him on the streets somewhere.

    So what if he had a lot of children by the members of his following. So what if his followers accepted his ideas and messages as law. That was their decision to make.

    I have heard that they were all 'Brain-Washed' by the sweet talker that was David. (I use David because I'm too lazy to look up the spelling of his last name. Haha)

    Let's look at his, meaning David, crimes. Possession of a fully automatic weapon. Firing a fully automatic weapon at Federal Agents. Killing Federal Agents by association. Possible Suicide, though is a better grounds for him having been killed by his second in command. Sleeping with questionable aged girls. No definitive proof that I have seen of their ages. Besides they are dead anyways.

    Now let's look at the ATF & FBIs crimes. Breaking and Entering. Scare Tactics against minor children. Shooting children. Trumping up charges against people who were just there so they could hang some star on their uniforms for having caught the 'bad guys'. Destruction of private property, multiple counts. Depriving children and adults alike of water and electricity which was bad for health through thirst, cold and poor sanitation. Multiple counts of roasting people including children alive.

    And who gets charged with crimes? Davidians. Whose fault is it that all those people died? ATF, FBI, Janet Reno and Clinton. Could this outcome have been any different? You bet your bippy. Did those people deserve to die? Of course they did. How else would the invasion and confiscation of private property look good if there were people who could turn to other people to help them. These people had to die in order for the PTB to chalk up another knotch on their belts showing how they deal with Domestic targets.

    This just grates on so many nerves even these years after it happened. David may have been wrong in what he taught, though that was his right. His followers were adults in charge of children and they could have easily left the place if they didn't like the message that was being taught. Not everyone of them was a gutless, mindless drone that would follow an insane man, so there must have been something to what David said.

    His speakings on the end of the world came to fruition as far as the Davidians were concerned. Seems like the gooberment helped it along a tad.
  2. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Nothing new about the whole deal. The original feds who were shot also had kicked in the door guns in hand without anouncing who they were which is why they were shot.

    Have you ever read up on Ruby Ridge? If not google it up some time, that should really get you going. Basicly as I recall/understand it someone 'thought' that Jack Ruby had a shotgun that was under legal limit and they charged him. He didnt show up for court so they sent folks to his farm who set up an ambush and shot his son, then in the insueing siege they also shot his wife in the throat while she was holding their infant child, shot him in the shoulder and attempted to/were getting ready to satchel bomb the house with him his infant and 2 daughters in side while a negotiator was getting ready to bring them out. As well as mocking his dead wife, hovering a chopper over the place threatening to fire bomb them from the chopper and so on. After he came out and faced the charges he was also cleared of all wrong doing, so there was never even a legitiment reason for them to have gone after him in the first place and the most he was guilty of was failure to appear in court.
  3. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    TMH. You should rent the movie "Waco, The Rules Of Engagement". Or watch it on the Documentary channel. It is the best movie on the Davidian massacre. It was filmed by a british independent film co., nominated for an acadamy award and givin two thumbs up by Siskel & Ebert who said "A movie that every American should see." Also if you are ever in the area, the surviving Davidians still live at the ranch and have erected a new Church and built a nice memorial and museum there. It is quite a moving experience to be there and see where so many died.

    MM. It was Randy Weaver, not Jack Ruby. You got the gist of the story right. An interesting fact is that the gun he modified would have been legal. He sawed the barrel off to 16 1/4", but unknown to him someone had also shortened the stock and that made the entire length less than the legal limit.By a 1/4". But of course the feds would drop the charges if he would spy on his nieghbors and help set up his friends. Randy told them to shove it. They sent him a letter stating the wrong court date and when he failed to show up issued a warrant for his arrest.
    He lost his wife and son over a 1/4". But he lost more than that. They killed him on that mountain too. I have met Randy several times and he has the most empty, haunted eyes you will ever see. He re-married a few years ago but now is divorced and the last I heard drowning his pain in a bottle. I hope and pray that he can pull himself together.
  4. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Thanks for the correction Minuteman. I know far less than I should, and all Americans should, about the incident as well as about the true specifics of Waco and the 'battle' of wounded knee I believe it was when the military used armored cav, machine guns and so on on inocent unarmed folks on a reservation because 3 people on another part of the reservation were armed and fleeing after a self defense killing. If I ever have the chance I would like to visit the site there at Waco. Most of what I know about Ruby Ridge is from an esay by the negotiator that I had read. The part that is the most truely frightening is that these are just the well known cases where there were survivors to tell the other side of the tail and the cover story unraveled, the few where things got 'messy'. Think of how many more times it happens that either the victims surrender and are impriossoned and labled as criminals with no credibility or all who would tell a different version were killed, of how often these types of crimes are ACTUALY perpetratedwith such slim excuses and never heard of by any of us.
  5. TailorMadeHell

    TailorMadeHell Lurking Shadow Creature

    I have seen the story of Ruby Ridge. It is also very infuriating that once again innocent people were savagely attacked by political screwups and there can never be any justice done to them because they hide behind wealth and power beyond that of the average man.

    It is this very behavior that in any future actions will call forth a decision.... Liberty or Death. Will you lay down and give up your arms when the jackboots come for you, or will you stand for your rights and the safety of those who depend on you whether it means death or not?

    We must all take this into account and draw the line. If the Domestic terrorists show up to harm you, a little gunfight with them will villify you and possibly lead to your demise. If you look at it in one way, it is a no win situation. If you look at it in another way, even one voice travels to many ears.

    I am just hoping that there will be a much needed turn around in this country without another such tragedy as happened at Waco or Ruby Ridge or anywhere else. If you have a knife, they will have a gun. If you have a gun, they will have a tank. If you have a tank, they will have a nuke. The PTB will almost always beat you though you can still speak freely for a while. Though if you believe that you should stand up for your rights and beliefs, then you should do that no matter the consequences because after all is said and done, should you have died that will have been predetermined and there is nothing you can do to stop it.

    If you aren't, then it is also predetermined. All one can do is to have faith that what ever course your life is to take will be guided by the hand that will one day wipe away all this injustice and heap the rewards of tyranny on the heads of those who think only of themselves and ruthlessly stomp on a free people. It's just another one of those, 'The guilty go free' things that can set my fires to burning bright. Maybe one day all who are oppressed will be liberated from the nauseating wave of crud that is flowing over the country.

    Just my thoughts.
  6. Seacowboys

    Seacowboys Senior Member Founding Member


    The 1878 posse comitatus law, Section 1385 of the U.S. code, states U.S. military forces and state national guards cannot be used as police forces against civilians. However, courts have given law enforcement wide leeway in using military and national guard equipment and facilities. As BATF Associate Director Hartnett told Congress, "We use the military all the time for support with reimbursement." [123] More recent modifications of the posse comitatus law (32 U.S.C. =15112 and 10 U.S.C. =15371) allow the military and national guard to provide "non-reimbursable" (i.e., free) support to civilian law enforcement if they are engaged in counter-drug operations.
    The Treasury report states BATF wanted to use military training facilities and equipment at Fort Hood, and Texas National Guard aerial reconnaissance before, and diversionary helicopters during, the raid. "However, in the absence of a drug nexus, ATF was told by both the U.S. military and the National Guard that the assistance would be reimbursable." (TDR:213) To get that free assistance, BATF constructed drug allegations from extremely shaky and dated evidence.
    Marc Breault had told BATF that Koresh claimed that after he took over Mount Carmel from George Roden, "he had found methamphetamine manufacturing facilities and recipes on the premises." Koresh told Breault he had asked the local Sheriff to take them away, but the Sheriff had no record of doing so. (TDR:30) Breault never alleged having seen such a lab in his years at Mount Carmel. Undercover agent Robert Rodriguez told BATF, "Koresh had told him that the Compound would be a great place for a methamphetamine laboratory because of its location." Also, one Branch Davidian had a "prior conviction for possession of amphetamines and a controlled substance" and 10 others had been either arrested or investigated for drug violations in the past. (TDR:212)
    However, as revealed to Congress, BATF admitted it knew the identity of the individuals most likely responsible for building this lab. "Roden allowed others to stay on the property and pay rent. Convicted narcotics trafficker Donny Joe Harvey and his associate, Roy Lee Wells, Jr., were verified by the McLennan County Sheriffs Department as residing at the compound. Both Harvey and Wells are incarcerated." BATF also admitted that it knew the last Branch Davidian to be convicted on drug charges was Brad Branch, back in 1983. [124] Finally, the statement Koresh allegedly made to the agent may well have been made within the context of George Roden tenants' former activities.
    On the basis of this shaky information, Army Lieutenant Colonel Walker, who advised BATF on obtaining "training or equipment or support in a counter-drug operation," recommended BATF solicit Texas National Guard services. [125] BATF convinced the Texas National Guard to do two overflights of the buildings to look for "hot spots" that might indicate drug laboratory activity. A hot spot was found but, since it could indicate construction, cooking or other activities requiring heat, "no official interpretation of the `hot spot'" was provided. (TDR:213) Given this dubious evidence, it is not surprising that in the month after the raid, BATF denied to reporters that it had used allegations of a drug laboratory to obtain the helicopters. After press reports that BATF had obtained the helicopters under "false pretenses" angered Texas Governor Ann Richards, Hartnett sent her a March 27, 1993 memo to assure her that there had been sufficient evidence to invoke the drug "nexus" exception to the posse comitatus law and obtain free use of Texas National Guard helicopters.
  7. Valkman

    Valkman Knifemaker Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    The worst thing about Waco, to me, was that it was totally uneccesary as they could have picked up Koresh on one of many trips to town. They also made secrecy a critical element, yet when folks all over saw them coming and told the Koresh-ites the cops changed the rules and went in anyway. Truly sickening the way Reno used the power she had available against these people, like CS gas on women and children. Her excuses afterward are pitiful yet no one involved ever got demoted, only promoted. They like go-getters I guess.
  8. BRONZ

    BRONZ Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    I watch the moive The Rules of Engagement every year around April 19, because I don't want to forget what the gov't is capable of doing.
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