At what distance do you stop being a threat?

Discussion in 'Firearms' started by M118LR, Jun 9, 2017.

  1. M118LR

    M118LR Caution: Does not play well with others.


    A telling Scopes eye view, it shouldn't take but an instant to have the shooting range solution.
    Perhaps we can converse about what reticle items can aid in your shooting solutions?
    So at what distance do you stop being a threat?
  2. SB21

    SB21 Monkey+++

    This may not be the answer you're looking for, but if for any reason they were a threat to start with, they are forever a threat , until neutralized .
    Zimmy, Tully Mars, Ganado and 9 others like this.
  3. Seepalaces

    Seepalaces Monkey+++ Site Supporter+

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  4. oil pan 4

    oil pan 4 Monkey+++

    They just go from being individual point targets to area targets.
    A .308 ricochet off the ground to the shin from 1,000m away will still ruin your day.
  5. M118LR

    M118LR Caution: Does not play well with others.

    There are way to many pitfalls determining if THEY are a threat.
    But as your the one behind the scope, at what distance should THEY consider you not to be a threat?
    At the present distance pictured, do THEY have even a 50% chance of mounting an effective response as they are armed?
    Motomom34 likes this.
  6. 3M-TA3

    3M-TA3 Cold Wet Monkey Site Supporter++

    Different reticles are good for different purposes.

    For dedicated CQB I like a concentric circle with a center dot prismatic scope.

    For CQB to longer ranges I like the Primary Arms ACSS reticle

    For very long ranges where you need a spotter and take Coriolis effect into account,,, haven't been there done that yet.
  7. Merkun

    Merkun furious dreamer

    So, in essence, you are asking what range we feel competent to take an effective shot. That'll be a nunya from here. OPSEC. In all honesty, my concern is FAR greater as to how far I need to be to prevent them from being effective, or how close I have to be to eliminate the threat.
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  8. M118LR

    M118LR Caution: Does not play well with others.

    Perhaps it's time for me to have a MIL-DOT moment.
    3.6 inches at 100 yards.
    7.2 inches at 200 yards.
    10.8 inches at 300 yards.
    14.4 inches at 400 yards.
    18 inches at 500 yards.

    5 X 14.4 = 72. Would you say that the approximately 6 foot tall (72 inches) target is 5 Mildot's from head to toe?

    Then I'll propose that we set the turrets for our 400 yard zero. I shall do my best to stay at an introductory level, if this progresses we can very slowly move up the scale. I'm attempting to have folks glean all the information that they can from this one moment in time. Hope those more advanced can have the patience to suffer through until more advanced questions arise. Thank Y'all.

    PS: The answer is strictly rhetorical, this is just food for thought or refresher training lets say.
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2017
  9. Ura-Ki

    Ura-Ki Grampa Monkey

    Personally, I remain a threat long after I have left the battle space, I want them to keep thinking IF!!! I control at what distance I am still a threat, not my enemy, and I also want him to believe I am in control at a much farther distance then he is comfortable operating in!
    Tully Mars, Ganado, SB21 and 6 others like this.
  10. duane

    duane Monkey+++

    Being USAF vet, with the old forward observer replaced with drones and satellite, I don't think the bad guys are ever comfortable. Problem as always isn't the tools, its knowing how, when, and where to use them and finally having the will and authority to use them. Have heard many stories from many wars of missed chances because the powers to be just didn't listen. Best studied is the supposedly surprise attack on Pearl in 1941, radar detected the planes coming in, one of the training destroyers sunk a midget sub, we had lost the Japanese fleet and didn't expand our search, etc. Then Mac scrambled all of his fighters, landed them later to refuel, and lost a good portion of them on the ground. While a 50 cal sniper rifle will really reach out and touch someone, the Finns and Russians did very well with the Mossion.

    Ballistic table for drop and windage are the rule for any shot over about 200 or so yards and very few of us have the ability to practice long range shooting ,500 or so yards, as the civilian ranges available for those distances are very limited at least in the north east. While knowing the theory is of less use than practice, it beat the h*** out of nothing. Am looking forward to any information you may present. The Apple Seed program does an excellent job of aiming, breath control, trigger control, etc, but really seems to lack any serious work on bullet drop over distance. The hardest concept to develop in the study of ballistic tables is that they are repeatable. A given bullet with a given shape moving at a given velocity with temp and altitude compensation may hit in a few inch circle at 1000 yards, but you need to allow for the bullet drop and that may require you to aim the rifle 5 feet above the targets head. Have friends that have got into long range shooting with peep sights etc, and it is addictive and takes a lot of time and thought to develop that skill. A good scope and some knowledge of how to utilize its abilities, can give useful shots at a distance in a short time.

    Had a Spanish Mauser with the sights going out to 2 klicks. Troops had to qualify on a target that was huge, 8 or 10 feet square. Idea wasn't to necessarily kill anyone, but random shots into buildings, tents, trucks from a mile away will have an effect on morale and require an almost unlimited guard force to limit it, the Spanish army thought it was well worth the effort to train their riflemen at long range harassment shooting.
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2017
  11. M118LR

    M118LR Caution: Does not play well with others.

    Food for thought: how many Mildots tall would a 6 foot target be at 2000 yards?
    In the Field when you pry my precision rifle from my lifeless hands (the round in the chamber is for the person that vanquished me) can you operate the sighting system and skillfully use the Battle Rifle that you have just inherited?

    What does the scope snapshot tell you about the wind conditions?
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2017
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  12. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    There are lots and lots of ways to gather target size, some favor the method I use, which is memorizing common measurements in inches and using simple math and/or the use of an incredible tool known as a Mildot Master.

    DSC00117.JPG -link-

    One example is to consider an enemy soldier, who may not always be completely visible in the open. The measurement from the top of the head to the groin is going to be 40 inches. When you use a mil dot reticle, count the mils of this target area of 40 inches between groin and top of head and perform your calculation of converting inches into meters -or- use the Mildot Master -or- use your ballistic calculator if you're the type who depends on technology and is comfortable with it. Let's say the target is a man, we measure out 3 mils exactly between top of head and groin, which we know to be 40 inches. The formula is as follows if you do this the old fashioned way: Target size in inches X 25.4 / mils in reticle. That's 40 multiplied by 25.4 and divided by # mils which is 3. You should get 338.6 if you use a calculator, easily round up to 340 meters. Or if you use the Mildot Master, it's simple because you just line up the 40 inch target size with your 3 mil measurement and your range is displayed as 340. That's just one example out of an infinite number you can use.

    Lots of civilian types use the MOA scope, and even those who may be military and are just accustomed to MOA. The functions will be different, but you can still get your distance in yards or meters. I am not well schooled in MOA and steer clear of it, but it can be a perfectly valid option if you train to use it properly. It would really suck to have MOA turrets on a Mildot scope, though. It's just a whole lot easier to keep it simple with inches to meters with Mils for me, using a Mil/Mil scope but your mileage may vary.

    A really good shooter is only limited by their equipment and at extreme ranges, the wind. A good shooter can read the wind using mirage and understanding the patterns, using trees and shrubs at distances to indicate the direction and approximate speed of wind, but it's not a perfect scientific method. You can have multiple cross winds coming from several directions over the course of 1,000 meters, and that screws up quite a bit if you're not careful. You can factor in a cross wind to the left at 5 mph around 300 meters, then have to factor in the other to the right at 10mph near 800 meters. This means you have a little estimation to do with the distance (500m <- 5 + 200m -> 10). You do not need to worry about Coriolis and humidity unless you're going well past 1500 meters and are concerned about hitting an eye socket. The average shooter and even the well trained combat soldier ought to be more concerned with the major points which most heavily influence ballistics, which are temperature, elevation (in degrees), and wind. Along with this, knowing your rifle, its ammunition, and all the details of proper shooting fundamentals are critical.
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  13. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    Mildot Master says exactly 1 mil :D
  14. sec_monkey

    sec_monkey SM Security Administrator

    bust out the pip-boy ;)
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  15. M118LR

    M118LR Caution: Does not play well with others.

    Just a slide rule fact checking moment: At what distance in yards does one Mildot equal 72 inches? I mean 3.6 inches is 100 yards, so 36 inches would equal 1000 yards, so 72 inches should equal 2000 yards. BZ Broker. Just a brief explanation, I've got to explain what I'd be doing in case someone without any prior experience inherits my Precision Rifle.

    But just because it's so important as distances increase: would you use the foliage on the right hand corner of the scope snapshot to gauge the wind, or would you use the lack of dust devils raised on the dirt road that the targets needed to transverse?
  16. Unique

    Unique Monkey

    I'm not 100% sure that I understand this question in context but if you're 2k away from me I think I'd be better served by evading rather than engaging.
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  17. Legion489

    Legion489 Rev. 2:19 Banned

    At what distance are you not a threat? Six feet under.
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  18. duane

    duane Monkey+++

    Not meant to hijack the thread but would like more comments on the Mildot Master. Back in the 1950's I was taught to fly and we used the E6B computer for everything but brushing our teeth. A very complex tool can be made user friendly and appear to be very simple with dozens of uses. We calculated air speed, ground speed, compass deviations, fuel burn rates, amount of fuel needed to reach air strip, crab angles, and a dozen other things. What can you do with the Mildot Master that appears to be EMP proof, take no batteries and has a good chance of surviving a drop, etc?
    AD1, Motomom34, M118LR and 1 other person like this.
  19. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    Witty. +1

    @M118LR You and yards. Sheesh. ;) I think in meters. I just don't see yards. fun fact: 100 yds = 91.4 meters yay!
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  20. M118LR

    M118LR Caution: Does not play well with others.

    You are now behind the scope, if I'm your target, should I evade, or should I press the attack. If you haven't had the Government Given Training, perhaps I can part some velvet ropes just encase you suddenly find yourself in possession of a precision rifle on the "Battlefield" (shtf whatever). The concept is like HS Drivers Education. We are looking at the moment prior to a collision, and I'm attempting to pass along what a Professional Driver might notice. Yes there are many more variables, but you crawl before you walk, and you stumble allot learning to run. Can I type you through a 2000 yard shot, no. (OJT hands on training is required) But the odds of you understanding how to hit a target at 2000 yards without having any information as to how the widgets work is even less.
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