Discussion in 'Back to Basics' started by melbo, Nov 14, 2005.

  1. melbo

    melbo Hunter Gatherer Administrator Founding Member

    THis is an important topic

    If you are the only knifemaker in a community of Corn farmers, how do you keep from haveing a barnfull of corn when you really need a new pair of boots?

    I found this bit of discussion interesting.
  2. Bear

    Bear Monkey+++ Founding Member Iron Monkey

    Good Read....
    Interesting Site....
    Yup.... it all depends on both of us having something, some skill or some outcome that the other wants..... planning for that in what ever future you are predicting is going to be the difference between not surviving, just surviving and surviving well....
    We do it every day... trade our skills for paycheck... trade some of our paycheck for goods or services.... invest in the future.... buy insurance against flood and disease.... but so far... its all been in paper "promise to pay" money.... what if the changes.... are we ready?.....
  3. melbo

    melbo Hunter Gatherer Administrator Founding Member

    I really like the concept of 'surviving well'.
    Bear, you mentioned today about the extra water filters. They would be almost priceless in a major SHTF... Even if you didn't get the Kat Pockets, one could always stock a few extra MSR minis for trade.

    You gave me the math for figuring 90% out. Good stuff and it made me see the ebay search on 90% in a whole new light. I could spot the good deals and the bad deals right off.

    (90% means pre-'65 coins, of which are 90% silver)
    $1000 face value = 715 oz of pure silver

    thanks Quig, that was a bit vague
  4. Bear

    Bear Monkey+++ Founding Member Iron Monkey

    Be careful on the "pre 1965" coin auctions as well.... some guys sucker you in with a technically correct description and then include the 40% nickels in their lots.... Make sure its 90% silver coins.... I picked up a small lot and learned the hard way in the beginning... luckily it was only about 20 nickels in the lot.....
    Also make sure you know the ounces... there's a difference between measures used and some guys rip you off this way..... Know your stuff and you will do "well".....

    Avoirdupois - 16 Ounces to 1 Pound
    Troy - 12 Ounces to 1 Pound

    Here's a link to help
  5. melbo

    melbo Hunter Gatherer Administrator Founding Member

    and, what was your forumula for figuring out an amount- to the amount of silver- to the Spot price?
  6. Bear

    Bear Monkey+++ Founding Member Iron Monkey

    Forgot to mention.... check the shipping as well.... you can burned on that... or if they want a wire or some other form of payment it will add the extra fees that a bank or post office will charge you to make it....
    Look at the transaction as whole and also how much you ultimately want to accumulate over what period.... alot of small transactions that look good will add up in postage and fees.... one large transaction may not look as good but when compared to all the extra postage and fees on the small ones.... the large transaction may be the way to go.... depending on your financial situation....
    Don't forget... sometimes you can make a small transaction and then make a better deal for yourself directly on a larger transaction with the same person... all within the rules of the auction site.....
    I still get calls to this day from sellers when they have inventory that they think I may be interested in.... (got one just after Katrina hit from a I guy I trust in Florida - see the connection) ... if you can establish a "buyers market" environment for yourself with trusted sellers.... you will ensure better prices even in tough markets.... be fair to your sellers though.... if you always squeeze the last penny out of them... you won't have many reliable resources left out there when you really need them....
    Don't be affraid to pay a premium to a trusted seller with a proven track record with you and consistent goods.... it lowers your risk... and is worth the extra.... IMHO.....
  7. melbo

    melbo Hunter Gatherer Administrator Founding Member

    clarified the above a bit
  8. Quigley_Sharps

    Quigley_Sharps The Badministrator Administrator Founding Member

    yeah now it looks good, thanks for the info guy's.
  9. Bear

    Bear Monkey+++ Founding Member Iron Monkey

    Probably not the right place but since we're talking silver....
    Here's some good information without all the marketing sections.... if you want to see the whole read.... clik on the link below.... enjoy....

    Silver bullion and pre-1965 U.S. 90% silver coins are popular ways to invest in silver. Silver—along with gold—has a 6,000-year history of surviving wars, economic chaos, and financial disasters. Silver can be expected to do the same in the future. In something like 14 languages, the words for silver and money are the same.
    Silver bars, also called ingots, have emerged as the most popular way to invest in silver. Silver bars are uniform in size, making them easy to handle and convenient to store. Additionally, they are compact, which enables investors to secure a great deal of wealth in a relative small storage area. Bars with recognized hallmarks are readily accepted for resale, making them easy to convert to cash.

    100-oz investment silver bars dominate the bullion market. Investors who buy 100-oz silver bars generally ignore the survival aspect of owning silver, which comes with owning pre-1965 US 90% silver coins and 1-oz silver rounds. 10-oz silver bars offer investors a compromise between 100-oz investment bars and survival forms, e.g., circulated 90% coins or 1-oz rounds. There are numerous brands of 100-oz silver bars
    Circulated pre-1965 US 90% Silver Coins
    Although technically not bullion, circulated pre-’65 US 90% silver coins are a bullion investment because when an investor buys $1,000 face (a “bag”) they are essentially buying 715 ounces of silver. Usually, bag prices fluctuate penny for penny with the world price for silver. If silver goes up ten cents, a bag of 90% generally rises $70 or so. Note the “usually” and the “generally.” That’s because bags sometimes lag spot price changes by a few days.

    When minted, a bag of 90% contained 723 ounces of silver. Because of wear, however, a bag of dimes or quarters will net about 715 ounces. A bag of half-dollars will net a little more, maybe 718-720 ounces because half-dollars did not circulate as much as dimes and quarters. Investors can expect to pay a little more for half-dollars than for dimes or quarters because of the higher silver content and because half-dollars are more popular. Also, fewer bags of half-dollars were minted than were dimes and quarters.

    When bags of circulated 90% coins can be bought at about the same premium as 100-oz bars, bags should be the first choice because they can—and often do—pick up premiums in rising markets. In past precious metals bull markets, bags have tacked on premiums of $1.20-$1.50 after only a few months into the bull markets. At times, premiums can rise to ridiculously high levels. For example in 1999, bags carried 50% premiums because of frenetic buying by people who were afraid that Y2K would cause many of the world’s computers to fail.

    1,000-oz 999 Fine Silver Bullion Bars
    Newly refined silver bullion is poured into 1,000-oz bars for storage until the silver is needed for fabrication into the many forms needed to meet industrial needs. 1,000-oz bars of 999 fine silver bars are also the standard form of delivery for futures contracts, such as those traded on the COMEX. However, rarely do 1,000-oz silver bars weigh exactly 1,000 ounces because there is no need for the refineries to go to the costs of making the bars weigh exactly 1,000 ounces. Most contain somewhere between 980 oz and 1100 oz; yet, some bars fall outside that range. After 1,000-oz silver bars are poured, their weights are stamped on them.
    Putting Silver (and Gold) in IRAs
    In 1997, Congress changed the laws so that IRA plans could accept silver and gold bullion. Although Silver Eagles are still allowed in IRAs, the most popular forms of silver bullion going into IRAs are 100-oz and 1,000-oz bars, and logically so. Bullion bars sell at significantly lower premiums than do Silver Eagles.
    Is Silver Better Than Gold?
    Precious metals investors often ask, “Should I invest in silver or gold?” Silver, silver, and silver is the answer, for a number of reasons.

    First, silver has always produced a greater percentage increase during precious metals bull markets. In past precious metals bull markets, silver has often tripled in price while gold has doubled. In some moves, silver rose four times while gold doubled in price.

    "Silver has more industrial applications than does gold, with more being announced almost weekly. These industrial uses provide an underpinning to the price of silver. So great is the industrial demand for silver that mine production and secondary recovery have fallen short of industrial demand since 1990. According to CPM Group, a New York metals consultancy, in 2001 new production and secondary recovery fell 117.5 million ounces short of meeting industrial demand. Add in the silver used for coinage, and the overall deficit swelled to 142.5 million ounces. Year 2001 was the eleventh consecutive year that saw a deficit. CPM Group estimates that over the last eleven years the production deficit has consumed 1,386,000,000 ounces of aboveground silver.
    Not only has production and secondary recovery failed to meet demand each year of the last eleven years, but aboveground supplies are critically short. Some analysts say that supply will fall far short of meeting demand over the next decade, and that much higher silver prices will be the result. According to accepted statistics, more gold rests in the vaults of the world’s central banks than there is aboveground silver.

    The drop in reported silver holdings around the world shows just how much the production deficit has eaten into aboveground supplies. In 1995, Comex stocks stood at 260 million ounces; today Comex stocks are about 100 million ounces. In 1991, estimated silver inventories in London and Zurich were 350 million ounces; today that number is closer to 50 million ounces. In 1980, world governmental silver stockpiles totaled some 325 million ounces; today, CPM estimates that number to 140.4 million ounces.

    Finally, many people think first of gold when the subject of “hard money” arises. Yet, more people have used silver for money than have used gold. In something like 14 languages, the words for silver and money are the same. In the United States, gold coins ceased to circulate as money with Roosevelt’s 1933 call-in. However, the U.S. Mint continued to turn out silver coins until 1965. "
  10. melbo

    melbo Hunter Gatherer Administrator Founding Member

  11. melbo

    melbo Hunter Gatherer Administrator Founding Member

    some of this was covered in Bear's earlier post... but he includes a formula for figuring it out in the quoted PM.
  12. melbo

    melbo Hunter Gatherer Administrator Founding Member

    Using the above forumla, with Silver at 8.49 an oz, I just paid a $40 debt here at SM.

    I'm sending off $6.60 (Face value) in pre-65 Silver coin instead of $40 FRNs.
    I'm actually taking a small loss on the deal as I am giving the Silver at it's "Spot" , or Market, value and not attaching a premium too it. I'm just happy to see One more interested in PM so its a promotional thing.

    I was thinking of offering up some silver coin in really small lots to members here if they want to just see it and hold some silver. It's a good thing to learn the math involved in barter with PMs.. (Precious metals)

    [beer] [beer]
  13. Bear

    Bear Monkey+++ Founding Member Iron Monkey

    Good trade.... You got goods or services and the provider got "Real Money" that is actually worth something today and will be worth something tommorrow....
    Smart move.... Real smart move....
    These are the kinds of things that take knowledge and practice.... its one thing to have it... its another to know how to use it.... Like "guns and ammo" for those who say you can't eat gold or silver.... I'd submit in most scenarios.... you can't eat your guns and ammo either....
    Balance... its all about balance....
    Another forum had a response that the person sold all their precious metals over the years and bought guns and lots of ammo.... I guess you could barter your guns and ammo and hope for no returns .... or you could forcibly take what you need.... (and hope the other guy isn't better trained, armed and prepared)....
    I'd submit it makes sense to have contingencies and options....
    Food, Water, Shelter, Clothing, Security, various forms of barter.... but most of all.... a plan to survive well in all phases of whatever life thows at you.....

    I could be wrong.... but I'd be willing to bet an ounce of .9999 pure silver and gold that I'm not.... :D
  14. melbo

    melbo Hunter Gatherer Administrator Founding Member

    That at todays spot?

    Good points Bear. You do need to have the rest of your plan squared away. Get your food, water, medical together first. Get some other Barterable items like Water Filters stocked up. If you find that you have these all covered and still have $$ in the bank or Stock market, now may be the time to think about 'exchanging' it for physical possesion of PMs. It's not Blowing your money on Gold/Silver. Just trading your FRNs for metal.

    It is soooo easy to change back in if you are in a spot someday. Hell, I can buy in bulk and make a profit selling it back on Ebay piece at a time. I think that the current system tries to scare people away from PMs. I'm willing to do some trades for Silver here at almost Spot prices.
  15. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    I think this is the most important thing to keep in mind is a variety. IMHO the most important thing to remember for this discussion would be the basic definition of the title to this thread, 'barter' is simply tradeing what you have that someone else wants for what they have that you want. In all reality PMs are only valuable for the same reason as paper money, people currently want it. If the paper currency looses all value then especialy in the short term most people you do business with are not likely to be that interested in PM, untill I saw it had become the new 'coin of the relm' I know if the baloon went up I wouldnt trade you a square of toilet paper for an ounce of gold unless it was cast into a bullet or a fishing weight or something I could use. Another thing to consider is that in areas where this has been reality already from what I have heard from folks liveing there the cheap junk gold jewlery that turns your skin green is bringing the same value in general trade as that 99.9999% pure gold is.
    My basic point here is just that theres no real good way to know for sure what would be the new accepted currency if the dollar becomes worthless so you would want to go with a wide variety of things and hopefuly keep at least 90% of the funds toward things that you can use if it dosnt have barter value, like say lighters or food or clothes or fabric or whatever. If you do decide to go for PM, I would suggest takeing at least 1/4 to 1/2 of the money you are going to invest and buy rolls of the cheap gold chain and a bunch of hasps so you can do it as bracelets and necklaces and such if that proves to be the new thing those same dollars spent just got a lot more return than the money you had to spend on the real stuff. Also keep in mind that the average guy at the corner store dosnt know how to tell real from fake unless its marked on it so the value would most likely be set by the base or cheap stuff, the junk that turns you green.
    Just my take on it.
  16. Bear

    Bear Monkey+++ Founding Member Iron Monkey

    Great points MM.....
    Yup... Various forms of barter for the various phases of a decline, bottom and a rise....
    Just got some conibears and snares and supplies for them....
    I like the passive nature of them and they are simple to use..... conibears won't waste a bullet most times... oh well... a club or spear will work....
    anyway.... my point is.... I thought about it.... do I need it now.... which phases of a collapse would they be helpful to me.... could I make them.... could they be helpful ....could I barter them.... are they low maintenance.... to they store well.... are they cheap now....
    Decided to go for it.... got some advice from a friend who traps for a living and does pretty well doing it.... and bought a supply....
    As far as I am concerned.... I do the same with everything I exchange my precious paper money for.... groceries, mountain house cans, water purifiers, led flashlights, security items, toilet paper, bottled water, hand tools... even precious metals.... everything has its place in time and at the right quantity.... to much of anything can be bad for you..... well not "anything".... :p
  17. melbo

    melbo Hunter Gatherer Administrator Founding Member

    Barter = what you work out in a trade that is mutually aggreeable to all parties

    Toilet Paper for ammo, Cigarettes for a compass, sex for food, etc.

    The PM emphasis seemed to come about in that none of are currently needing Toilet paper. But, to get the barter mentality and learning curve started, small change is a good way to begin.

    I suppose I could put up a Barrett for 1.25 million rolls of TP... :lol:
    The intent of my thread was to get us thinking about it. What value is what. How much 22LR is that water filter worth? etc. Getting people thinking in a saving mentality vs a spending mentality is the first step. PMs are not the silver bullet that everyone needs. I made sure I was pretty squared away before I even started investing in tem. And it is an investment. Bear talked about the ramp up and down to SHTF... If my silver hits $100 an oz during the panic and I can sell it to those panic buyers for even $90 an oz, I will quickly have cash to do a few last minute Large Buys. Or pay off my home.

    trade is trade
  18. Bear

    Bear Monkey+++ Founding Member Iron Monkey

    "trade is trade"

    and "timing" is everything.....
  19. melbo

    melbo Hunter Gatherer Administrator Founding Member

    yep. that can of soda that I want when the Bending machine says "Chage-Ouit of Order" might still be worth a Buck if I'm thirsty enough.

    Small denominations of trade items are a very good thing. Can't make change for a water filter
  20. dan69

    dan69 Monkey+++ Founding Member

    Agreed with earlier posters. Trade is trade, and only worth what you can get for it.

    While I agree that, when the SHTF, practicality is practicality, I also think that human nature plays a big part. Human beings are not always practical players. No, that gold ingot may not be of much immediate value unless you can form a sinker out of it, but there are some things that will be. I don't know the shelf life of a fifth of Jack Daniels', but I'd bet money someone would be willing to trade dearly for it, especially given a couple weeks.

    Gold and silver may be intensively competitive if you're looking at stock market prices, but some things (liquor, shit paper, ammo, porno?) will always be valuable.

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