Basic Defensive battery:

Discussion in 'Firearms' started by Nomad 2nd, Nov 5, 2007.


  1. Nomad 2nd

    Nomad 2nd Monkey+++

    Basic Defensive battery:

    These are some of my ideas on a basic DEFENSIVE battery.
    Hunting shotguns, .22's... are not included. It pretty much doesn't matter what brand of those you use.

    It can be adapted as needed.

    Rifles:
    This is for people without alot of experence, gunsmithing skills, training...
    The rifle(s) should be durable, reliable, and capable of reliably killing mansized game.
    IF you live on the great Plains you will have specific needs, but otherwise most use of a rifle will be within 200 yards, and it is unlikely outside of 300 yards.

    As such I first pick the round:
    7.62x39

    And secondly pick the rifles:
    AK47's and SKS's.

    The reasons for this are:
    They use the same ammo, and stripper clips, both are EXTREMELY reliable, and they are relatively inexpensive.

    I personally have a WASR and I expect you will have no problems if you insure:
    The sites are straight. The trigger has the words "G2 Tapco" on the left side of it, and the magazine locks into place securely.

    I would buy the Ak's directly from Century due to the fact that if there is a problem you can call them, and they will pay for you to UPS it directly to them and they will fix or replace the rifle.
    http://www.centuryarms.biz/search.as...=&sprice=&pg=2
    ~/under $400

    A blue Force gear sling
    http://www.tacticalresponsegear.com/...oducts_id=2554


    And a Pentagon light attached to the barrel with a clamp.
    http://www.tacticalresponsegear.com/...oducts_id=2574
    http://www.tacticalresponsegear.com/...oducts_id=2096

    My personal 'Happy spot' with rifle mags is 20. Do not get less than 10 per rifle.
    Here's a decent, inexpensive chest pouch:
    http://www.centerfiresystems.com/ind...ROD&ProdID=132


    SKS:
    Simple sling, (Usually included) and Stripper clips:
    http://www.jgsales.com/product_info....roducts_id/399
    http://www.jgsales.com/product_info....oducts_id/1621
    http://www.centerfiresystems.com/ind...ROD&ProdID=567


    Pistols:
    I selected a Glock 19.
    http://www.glock.com/english/index_pistols.htm
    Here are the reasons:
    Many holsters, parts, and acessories avalable.

    Not much to be done except add night sites, and they can come with them.
    Parts, and mags are cheap
    Ammo for practice are inexpensive.

    Let me say one thing about the 9mm round. 'I' do not consider FMJ an effective stoper.
    If I carry 9mm it is Corbons:
    http://www.dakotaammo.net/

    A decent and inexpensive holster and mag pouch is:
    http://glockmeister.com/catalog/inde...2202cd16c2433d

    I buy mags from CDNN:
    http://www.cdnninvestments.com/gl199mm15drf.html


    I picked these weapons due to their avalability, durability, and simplicity of controls.
    This is ment to simply be a good baseline, not a complete or final word.
     
  2. phishi

    phishi Psy-Ops Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Okay, here it comes.........wait for it!

    Why not .223?

    phishi
     
  3. KHAN

    KHAN Monkey+++

    Answer:
    From Nomad's post:
    The rifle(s) should be durable, reliable, and capable of reliably killing mansized game.
     
  4. Blackjack

    Blackjack Monkey+++


    I know this is looking for a big fight about AR vs AK platforms, but I believe the AR15/M16 of which I have had a few and used most of my life, meets all 3 of those requirements. Especially if you bump up the caliber to 6.8 or 308. Plus, I believe that US Military cartridges will be easier to acquire in a SHTF scenario (black market).
     
  5. Nomad 2nd

    Nomad 2nd Monkey+++

    I also do not want this to become a .223 vs x39 discussion (Lets do that elsewhere) but I can say, atleast with SS109 that it takes 5-7 body shots to bring someone down.

    AND I will say that the M4 and M16 Platforms have not been sufficiently reliable for me to trust by choice.

    I WILL say, that if a Shooter who KNOWS what he is doing, has some basic spair parts, and keeps the weapon well mainitined it will be reasonably reliable.

    That shooter is not who this post is for.

    Conversly, an Ak can run reliably in the hands of an African 9 year old who cannot even read the manual.

    I am reminded of doing drills during Contractor shooting classes I was in, with 2 teams of 5, with one Ak and 4 Ar's per team (Good, knowledgable shooters) where at the end of several drills there was one rifle running and 4 pistols.
    The rifles were Ak's.

    I would prefer a AR10 over an AR15, but that rifle's critical (Most likely to fail) parts are NOT interchangable with the Ar/M16 platform.

    And I'll take one of my M1A's or FAL's over that.

    As to Scrounging, I was in New Orleans After Katrina, the N.G. had one mag each.
    Do not plan on this.
    What you have is all you have.

    AND IF M16 mags and ammo are all over... I'm pretty sure there will be a rifle there also.
    I can run one, I just have no respect/trust for one.
     
  6. phishi

    phishi Psy-Ops Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Thank you for your reply. I wasn't looking for a fight, just some details into what you were thinking.

    Thanks for your thoughts,
    phishi
     
  7. Nomad 2nd

    Nomad 2nd Monkey+++

    No problem, always looking for a good reasonable discussion.
     
  8. magnus392

    magnus392 Field Marshall Mags Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    The possibility of ammo pick up is why I have started adding the 5.56 capability to my AK inventory.

    That being said I do like the hard hitting capacity of most any .30cal round. The 5.45 round is comparable to 5.56, but Russians in Afghanistan complained about the lack of knock down. Not to mention the complete lack of ammo availability in general circulation.
     
  9. BAT1

    BAT1 Cowboys know no fear

    Here's mine : 12 ga 22" with B/S and slugs.
    AR in .223 and 6.5 Grendel 62gr-77gr for the .223 3x9x42 Scope
    Bolt action .308 147 gr and up in FMJ and soft points 4x12x40 Scope
    Springer .45 with FMJ and hollow points
    I reload and and do think the .223 in higher grain ammo will tear through the neck nicely. I can hit 8" steel at 225 yds and has never malfuntioned. The pistol and S/G for up close and personal. 20 and 30 round mags for the AR. 10 mags for the .45
    Don't have a 7.62 x39 machine but would like one.
     
  10. pgrass101

    pgrass101 Monkey+++

    While this is about my gun collection I am wanting to build, it is also about my thoughts on preparedness for survival. I started thinking about becoming prepared when I started working on http://adph.org/CEP/index.asp?id=511 for my work. My wife and I have a 3 month supply of food stored plus what we have in the kitchen. Most of or stored food is canned and does not or requires little water. We are slowly building up a food supply as outlined in the [URL='http://www.amazon.com/dp/0936...=#0000ff]Crisis Preparedness Handbook[/COLOR].

    Since my son was born I have rethought the guns I would like to have and why those guns. I am interested in comments and other peoples list to help me flesh out mine own.

    First What I have:

    Handguns

    2 .357 mag (Taurus and Rossi) one snubnose one full size.
    1 9mm Taurus PT-92
    1 .380 Makarov
    1 Ruger Gov't Model II .22LR
    1 SSA Clone .45LC

    Long Guns
    1 Model 70 Winchester in 7mm Rem mag
    1 FAL (Century Arms L1A1 Sporter) 7.62 NATO
    1 Ishpore Enfield 2A 7.62 NATO
    2 Mosin Nagant's 7.62R (M44, 91/30)
    1 Remington 870 12ga
    1 Mossberg 500 20ga
    1 Winchester semi auto.22LR
    1 M-1 carbine .30 carbine

    What I want:
    1 more .357mag revolver 3 or 4 inch barrel
    1 9mm
    1 Ruger BlackHawk .357/9mm conversion
    1 more M-1 carbine.
    1 more 12ga Shotgun (Mossberg 500 or Rem 870)
    1 .357 carbine (Pump or lever action)
    1 Bolt-action 22LR

    I went away from 5.56mm because my wife really likes the M1 carbine and with CMP releasing them now I can pick up a good Inland for less than $800, plus I have reloading dies for .30 carbine.

    My workhorse rounds will be .357/.38 and 7.62 NATO, with 9mm and .30 carbine being defensive rounds. The 12ga and .22LR are general purpose rounds and the Nagants are to arm others or general back-up. Nagants are cheap and tough, I will probably get a M-38 to round out my collection and a couple of more sealed tins of 7.62R to go with it.

    So what is you list, and/or thoughts?

    PS I'm not prepared enough to be a survivalist
    <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
     
  11. ozarkgoatman

    ozarkgoatman Resident goat herder

    Others may see things differently than I do, but this is how I see things.

    1) A good rifle in a millitary cal. I like AK's and SKS's because you can beat them to death and they still put rounds down range.

    2) 22lr cal rifle and/or pistol.

    3) Pump shotgun 12 or 20ga. which ever soots your needs. (ie...what can you handle and what can the people that will likely be with you can handle. Get a couple of barrels (ie...one short slug barrel and one with screw in chockes) and you can do alot.

    4) One center fire pistol.

    If you owned just these few weapons they would get you through most anything IMHO.

    OGM
     
  12. E.L.

    E.L. Moderator of Lead Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    What ever it is you want to have as your main rifle, be it ARs, AKs, M1 Garands, carbines, etc. make sure you are proficient with it. If the SKS is your thing, then buy a couple and make sure you know how to load it, shoot it, clean it, then do all of the above in the dark. This is one of the big reasons I went from the 1911 platform to the XD platform. Ease of maint., and less parts. I still have my 1911's, but I use the XD a lot more. Buy a backup if you can. My feeling is that for defensive purposes I would rather have four or five of the same type, then ten different ones. I want to keep the ammo the same, magazines the same, and handling the same. It's easier for me to train my family on how to use one rifle and one pistol then multiple different firearms. If something happens, we will fall back on our training. If there is none, then freezing caused by panic occurs. I am familiar with my ARs and AKs, but my girls have only shot my ARs.

    In a defensive battery, I see no use whatsoever for a .22 unless it is suppressed, or used with CB Caps for suppressed like shooting.

    Shottys, well have em' and like them. I still see them as the ultimate CQB weapon. Shoot a 7.62, 5.56, .45, 9mm, etc. into clay. Then shoot a slug or buckshot. I have never seen an animal shot with slug/buckshot close range not fall down and be incapacitated immediately with one shot.
     
  13. NVBeav

    NVBeav Monkey+++

    pgrass101: Question on the .380 Makarov -- are you able to use the .380 ammo in the .357 or is it a different "type" of .380 (pardon my ignorance, but I'm sure I've seen people use .380 in place of the more expensive .357 bullets). TIA!​


    My thoughts on a defensive battery are changing, but, right now, I'm leaning toward the following for many of the same reasons EL mentioned:
    • Side Arm: CZ-82
    • Defense: SKS
    • Long Gun: FN-FAL
    Side Arm: My thoughts for choosing the CZ-82 are it's cost, quality of make, and sufficient supply of ammo (adequate supply for reasonable cost right now). Most importantly, it fits my wife's hand and mine so we can both become proficient with it and have the same weapon (much like EL was talking about - familiar weapon and ammo).

    SKS: What's not to like about the SKS except that it's ugly, heavy, uses stripper-clips, etc... It's also only ~$200, ammo is inexpensive, it's reliable, easy to clean, fairly accurate, and practically unbreakable. It also fits my wife's small stature and won't knock her down. Did I mention that it's affordable (can buy 5 for the price of one good FAL)?

    Long Gun: My FAL was expensive, the bullets are expensive, I still need a scope (expensive), and it's a beautiful shooter. I al$o need backup part$ for it.

    I really like what EL said:
    • Make sure you're proficient with [whatever you are using]
    • It's easier for me to train my family on how to use one rifle and one pistol [than] multiple different firearms
    Other than that, I love my Swedish Mauser (M96). It's a work of art that can make art on a target (even with iron sights).
     
  14. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    pgrass101: Question on the .380 Makarov -- are you able to use the .380 ammo in the .357 or is it a different "type" of .380 (pardon my ignorance, but I'm sure I've seen people use .380 in place of the more expensive .357 bullets). TIA!​

    NO! You can use .38 spl in a .357 (do the switch the othe way and gun blows up) but .380 is and auto round and will not function in a .357. The projectiles are the same diameter however for .380, .38 spl, .357, and 9mm. The .380 ammo COULD be fired through a 9mm (again switch the other way and gun explodes) but its unlikely it would operate the action and would have to be operated basicly as a single action.

    I have thought a lot lately about a MINIMAL arsenol like what to take on long trips far from home in case of a worst case senario of haveing get home several hundred miles in a post SHTF situation. The best that I managed to come up with was a good 9mm handgun with hollow point ammo (250-500 rounds) and a customized 10/22 Ruger.

    My basic thinking for this was that first off, even in a SHTF situation I figure so long as you are trying to keep a low profile and avoid trouble then confrontations are most likely going to be inside of handgun range, so the handgun in a good defensive cal will take care of this and also large game up close. I settled on the 9mm just for availability of ammo. The 10/22 I would be wanting for this would be customized in that would want a folding stock so it could go in a pack to apear unarmed and as a nonthreat if needed but would also be accurized with a 16-18" match grade barrel and match trigger then top it with a decent 3-9 scope.

    I have seen some of the barrels guaranteed to be MOA accurate and I know MANY deer and such have been poached through the years by .22s and at close range well placed rounds will take down most anything. I also like the .22 because I figure a lot of the meat of oprotunity would be rabits, squirles and so on and shooting them with a .223 or 7.62 or some such dont leave much. Add to this the abbility to easily carry 1500-2000 rounds of ammo and restock easier than ANY other cal. Then theres the fact that while theres no question that a .22 is not the best choice for defense BUY how many people are going to stand up and let you shoot at them with a .22? Figure that if they DO then with high cap mags you can put 10 rounds in them easy enouph and stop them and if not you can kep their heads down while you run the other way and can afford to spend the ammo for this type of cover fire WAY more than any other cal.

    So with the ability to easily take small game out to 75-100 yards, keep BG heads down, take large game out to 50 yards with well placed shots, ability to resupply/carry/stock ammo easily and less noise to attract attention in a reliable rifle backed up by a large cal defensive handgun for close range when needed, seems to me to be the best MINIMUM arsenol.

    If its for stationary where ammo can be stocked up and not carried and so on then the list goes more like this:
    AK/SKS
    30/06 or .308 scoped
    20 or 12 guage pump shotgun
    10/22
    9 mm handgun
     
  15. evilgijoe88

    evilgijoe88 Monkey+++

    in a defensive situation i always see a use for a 22lr. even if its simply for training and suppressive fire. no weapon is worth much if you cannot be trained properly and if you have out of town relatives around at the time something happens, who have never fired a weapon before in their lives. well then give them a 22 to practice with and also the job of suppressive fire no one getting fired upon is going o pop their head up and ask for what caliber you are using. while i like my ak i am more familiar with the M-4 so if absolute need came to it and i had time to zero the optics on the M-4 then i would carry one. however for merely my personal preference i like the ak. the hand gun i currently carry daily switches between a .380 and a Walther p-22. i cant say much about shot guns since i manage to have mine break with the bolt/pump halfway engaged. so its been awhile that i have had the opportunity to fire one. for the longer ranges i do enjoy my yugo 8mm mauser or my cetme. i hope that this helps to give a lil more help.
     
  16. pgrass101

    pgrass101 Monkey+++

    Monkeyman,

    I like your thinking on a .22lr for defense. I could get a folding stock 10/22 and stow it easily in the trunk or behind the truck seat and carry a couple of thousand rounds no problem. Plus if I had to hump it back home it would serve multiple purposes that you mentioned.
     
  17. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    I should know better than to jump into this potentially volatile thread...

    but Momma didn't raise a genius.
    Off the cuff thoughts: Think about what you can or are willing to carry,Just because you've got an m60 and a socom m1a in the basement, my thinking says reality is not "halo III" or some other shooter game; changing weapons involves more than clicking the mouse button, Unless they are trundled around in the infamous " tactical wheelbarrow".
    So theres a limit to the utility of buying one of every flavor of Ar or Ak because " the folder works better for cqb, the heavy barrel is for long distance,the mosins for eastern europeans,etc..."
    I am nowhere near trained nor outfitted as well you folks who take these contractor shooting courses, So take this for what little its worth...
    (back to minding my own business...[peep])

    onelast: I tend to agree strongly on the utility of the 22lr and not seeking out confrontation.:)[cof]
     
  18. pgrass101

    pgrass101 Monkey+++

     
  19. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    30 carbines are sweet, other than the armchair arguments claiming little to no
    effectiveness on people. I wouldn't volunteer to stand in front of one. I've read somewhere seals find utility in them; I like'em too.) Too many wwII movies as a kid.
     
  20. Seacowboys

    Seacowboys Senior Member Founding Member

    Personally, I am fond of this one loaded with nails, rocks, and ball-bearings
    pix1671214953.
     
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