Black Water

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Seacowboys, Oct 15, 2007.


  1. Seacowboys

    Seacowboys Senior Member Founding Member

    A couple of things to point out:
    1. Most Blackwater personnel are former US military Special Ops.
    2. Almost all BW personnel are combat veterans from the US military, most from Iraq or Afghanistan.
    3. They learned their trade the hard way and they are good at it.
    4. We hired them as mercenaries.
    5. Mercenaries are paid killers; that's what they do for a living.
    I do not understand what the problem is?
     
  2. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    Chain of command. Span of control...They are one more dangerously unpredicatable variable the us commanders and squad leaders have to factor in. Obviously they are on the side of black water and the galactic senate. If they are so professional they would understand and defer to simple policies like safing and clearing weapons in "camp"without acting like beligerent know- it-all teenagers.
     
  3. Seacowboys

    Seacowboys Senior Member Founding Member

    . Conservative Blackwater Founder Targeted
    Blackwater’s major “sin” has nothing to do with Iraq, and everything to do with U.S. politics.
    Congressional Democrats have made the firm, and its founder Erik Prince, the punching bag for their anti-Bush campaign.
    One reason Washington insiders say Prince and company are being targeted is his unapologetic support for the GOP and conservative causes.
    Now the security contractor is under scrutiny stemming from its involvement in the Sept. 16 shootings of up to 17 Iraqis in Baghdad while escorting U.S. State Department vehicles, and “some critics are questioning whether Mr. Prince’s political connections have propelled the company’s sudden rise,” The New York Times reports.
    Prince, 38, is the son of Edgar Prince, founder of the Michigan-based Prince Corporation, an automotive parts supplier.
    Edgar Prince was close to Gary Bauer, now the president of American Values, and James Dobson, founder of the evangelical organization Focus on the Family.
    Erik’s sister Betsy married Dick DeVos, son of the Amway co-founder Richard DeVos. The elder DeVos is one of America’s most respected and influential Republicans. Last year, the younger Dick DeVos ran unsuccessfully as a Republican candidate for governor of Michigan.
    Erik served as a White House intern under President George H.W. Bush, and worked for Pat Buchanan’s campaign in 1992. After college he joined the Navy Seals, but he left the Navy after his father died in 1995. His family sold the Prince Corporation for more than $1 billion the following year.
    Prince’s experience with the Seals led him to found Blackwater USA, with a training facility in rural North Carolina, and after the 9/11 terrorist attacks, Blackwater became a major security contractor in war zones.
    Prince and his family have given hundreds of thousands of dollars to Republican candidates and other conservative and religious causes, according to the Times. He reportedly gave more than $500,000 to Focus on the Family from July 2003 to July 2006.
    Erik Prince is “a visionary when it comes to military technology and asymmetric warfare, but he is also a bankroller of Republican and right-wing religious causes,” said Jeremy Scahill, author of the new book “Blackwater: The Rise of the World’s Most Powerful Mercenary Army.”
    But what does Prince’s politics have to do with the work he and his company do on behalf of the American taxpayer? When does being a conservative Republican open a government contractor open to congressional scrutiny?
    During recent congressional hearings probing Blackwater’s operations in Iraq, Prince made the same point, saying he didn’t think his political contributions were “germane” to the inquiry.
    Robert Young Pelton, author of “Licensed to Kill — Hired Guns in the War on Terror,” a book about contractors in Iraq, is one of the few journalists who has interviewed Prince extensively. Pelton described Prince’s politics as more “libertarian” than conservative.
     
  4. Blackjack

    Blackjack Monkey+++

    The problem is that they are out of control, much like our police here are.... only much worse.
     
  5. FrancisMarion

    FrancisMarion Monkey+++

    Hello to everyone. Long time observer. First time poster. I served in al fallujah for 6 months. Ive also been trained by Blackwater. These guys for the most part (as there are always going to be dipsh*ts) are true professionals. I keep hearing..."they are out of control!" These guys have been doing this since the war started and the statistics on how often a weapon is discharged is outstanding. They rarely have to fire their weapons. They have never lost a principal. Think about that...the most dangerous city in the world and these guys have never lost a principal. Several of them have been killed carrying out their duties. If a kid goes to college and majors in accounting...he's more than likely going to get out of college and make a bunch of money being an accountant. Well these guys went into the military and were trained to the extreme...now they have an oppurtunity to make a lot more money doing what they've been taught to do. Give them a break. Regardless of what you may hear these guys dont kick the saloon door open and start shooting. They prefer to get the hell out of the situation (they are protecting someone why start shooting and draw attention to yourself...think about it) And if you ever have a chance to train with Blackwater and dont do it you will be missing out on a wealth of knowledge, expierience and a damn good time.

    Seacowboys makes some fantastic points.

    Thanks to all who continually post great information on everything under the sun. I know its all going to come in handy some day!
     
  6. Blackjack

    Blackjack Monkey+++

    So... the incident killing 17 civilians is a lie?

    Are they just misunderstood?
     
  7. ghrit

    ghrit Ambulatory anachronism Administrator Founding Member

    Obviously, we cannot know what their rules of engagement look like, for good reason. All the same, if it is my tush on the line, I'd sooner have the pros covering it than any particular random selection of "normal" military troops. There is a world of difference between the attack and take land military and the protect your principal security service. You think the Secret Service won't take random shots to cover POTUS? The SS has a lot of other duties besides covering POTUS, and I'd take a small wager that their training is less specific and intense than BW operatives for the purpose of personnel protection. Plus, they have little in the way of actual field experience. Gimme BW if it's my butt.

    Small point, but mercenaries are hired by foreign governments to fight wars. These guys don't fall in that category, they are working for the US gov't, not like the Hessians that King George hired to put down the rebellion on this side of the pond.
     
  8. FrancisMarion

    FrancisMarion Monkey+++

    Im not saying the Iraqis are lying...but they are probably lying.:sneaky: These people get paid by our government for everything! One round gets fired the next day you got 15 Iraqis lined up...the bullet hit my house, bounced off hit my ass bounced off hit my wife and so on and so on.
     
  9. ghrit

    ghrit Ambulatory anachronism Administrator Founding Member

    Hey, Swamp Fox!! Welcome aboard.
     
  10. FrancisMarion

    FrancisMarion Monkey+++

    Thanks for the welcome GH!
     
  11. E.L.

    E.L. Moderator of Lead Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    I don't have a problem with BW either. I am sure there are going to be some problems that pop up from time to time, but it is a hostile environment. For that matter there are problems with our GI's from time to time. Lots of people in a hostile environment. For the most part the BW operatives seem to be well trained, and are performing a needed function. In the "fog of war" sometimes innocents are injured or killed. I hate to say it, but it is true. When you are being fired at most would tend to fire back. I am sure that each and every time those men put theirselves in harms way in their back of their mind they are thinking about Scott Helvenston Scott Helvenston - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:United_States_Department_of_the_Navy_Seal.svg" class="image"><img alt="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cb/United_States_Department_of_the_Navy_Seal.svg/28px-United_States_Department_of_the_Navy_Seal.svg.png"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/c/cb/United_States_Department_of_the_Navy_Seal.svg/28px-United_States_Department_of_the_Navy_Seal.svg.png
    and his coworkers. Ambushed in Falluja, drug through the streets, burned, and hung from a bridge. I still remember the pictures. Vivdly. I remember watching Scott in the Spec. Ops reality competition show on TV called "Combat Missions." Knowing something like that can happen to you, or having your head cut off with a small knife has to way heavy on their minds. It is a dangerous job.

    Welcome aboard FrancesMarion!
     
  12. Seacowboys

    Seacowboys Senior Member Founding Member

    I seem to recall a congressional investigation into our govenment killing what was it? 20,000 civilians? by systematic assassination? I guess we can just forget about the Phoenix program? When you unleash the dogs of war, don't complaign about where they crap.
     
  13. melbo

    melbo Hunter Gatherer Administrator Founding Member

    I was once very interested in training at Blackwater. It's not all that far from me but time didn't work out for the trip. The thing that frightens me about Blackwater is the way they were used in New Orleans during the gun confiscations and general peace keeping. Many of those used during Katrina were recently rotated out of hot zones and from what I saw were still acting like they were in Iraq.

    I'm at a point where I don't always trust the motives of my .gov here at home and fit seems that Blackwater has become or is becoming a private army for our leadership. An Army that isn't accountable to things like internal affairs or oversight.

    I could really care less about the details over those Iraqi civilian casualties. That doesn't directly affect me. What does affect me is when a band of mercs comes walking down my street to collect my weapons. I'd rather they stay in the ME. If you look at the amount of money budgeted for BW since 2000 it's staggering the kind of men and equipment they have amassed in a few short years. If kicked out of Iraq, where will they go? Here to curb the coming civil unrest when the banks run?

    I wish I had taken the blue pill. But I didn't and I can't stop thinking ahead to further abuses of power.
     
  14. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    agreed; protecting a principle is a nicely defined objective, for these forces.
    You get the principle out.
    Now.
    Everybody not on board with that becomes a hostile target.
    I too; just dislike the private executive branch praetorian guard condi's got. the thought of these guys on the street as a metal fist sans velvet glove .gov can turn on the populace IS particularly scary......
    Even the "dogs of war" are on a "leash" held by many officers and civilians sworn to defend the constitution
    and not just under corporate control of one guy one man(president) who thinks the constitution is just a "g-d" piece of paper.
    I realize the "dogs of war" is an often misunderstood reference: Instead of referring to animals ( "wardogs") I've always believed it was referring to dogs as in the "dogs" on the side of a transmission gear. To "cry havoc and loose the dogs of war " was to cry "havoc"and let the gears of the "war machine" slip out of control...(?)
     
  15. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    Yep. I am sure that the Blackwater teams are fully competent, and at least at the same level of our military forces as far as decency is concerned. Out of all the military, there are bound to be a few "bad eggs", but with a much smaller, more motivated group like Blackwater, I just don't see the issue here.

    This whole Blackwater media attack is centered around one thing: lifting the political pressure long enough on the military and the political goons. BW will just take a little hit and come right back in a few months. Favor to a friend, so to speak. ;)
     
  16. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    I can agre that they make me nervous as far as the way they were used in NO and that they could be used more broadly here at home, especialy after being fed and grown in war zones and they would not be operating under the same restrictions as the military.

    As far as what they have been doing in the war zones I think they have an excelent record. One thing that the media dosent adress when they talk about 'civilians' being killed there is the fact that the insurgents ARE civilians. They are not millitary in uniforms and such and from what I ave gathered it is much the same as it was for those in Vietnam in that it was just as likely to be a woman or kid that droped a grenade at your feet and killed you as it was to be a male shootig you. So in an enviroment like that I tend to err on the side of assumeing that the guys on the ground had good reason to shoot at their targets, especialy since I already know the MSM is full of crap and has its own agenda that ontroles what is reported and how.
     
  17. Seacowboys

    Seacowboys Senior Member Founding Member

    The nice thing about "PRivate" security forces is they we can hire them too; our own private army. Any we can pay with gold; the .gov only has worthless paper.
     
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