Buckshot/Slug mix for Home Defense

ForestDave, ya know I luv ya but . .


At 40 feet each of the pellets in a 1oz load of 7-1/2 12ga 3" at 1250FPS carries just over 1.7lbs of energy.

Do the math.


Then, please, mail me some of your physics defying ammo!

 

40 Feet is a damn sight different than 10-20' and most hallway shots would range in the 10-20' zone. Just sayin' YMMV.

 

The whole idea is to STOP an intruder...So, with that in mind and the safety of any other loved ones in the home, ( not to mention neighbors) birdshot would work, not penetrate basic drywall types of walls...BUT 00 and 000 will. Slugs? No way! If you want a heavier round I'd suggest #6 shot or even a #4 shot but they will go thru walls at close range. Here in the city, I'd use only a lighter load, as we are only separated by a mere 10 feet from home to home...and being in a mobile home is a tad bit different than a brick/block or wood framed house! In the country a whole different story and I'd load up for most critters including mountain lion, bear, etc. But, I'd be hesitant to use 00 buck on a bear! That's where the slugs come in!

 

Birdshot and inside walls @ 7 yards - 21 feet
12 ga shotgun with birdshot vs Front Indoor walll - YouTube

And various shot types and distances of 30' and 9'.
Shotgun Vs Sheetrock - YouTube

 

One "other" thing,...the wadding! At close ranges, the wads have barely started to open and as such, make one nasty projectile similar to a slug, but on impact they dissipate a lot of energy from the individual shot....
Either or, I'll stay on the "backside" of the shotgun, thank you!

 

Dang! All this time I thought it was to stop the threat they pose!


I made the mistake of not thinking through the (apparently?) subtle difference once. Shot that SOB three times with my .45ACP in the most "non-vital area" I could get a sight picture on at the time. Good solid hits. Dropped him like the proverbial rock.

But he was still 100% capable of shooting at me from the ground, had he a mind to.


I'll not make THAT mistake twice.

 

I don't know about you, but a shottie blast to the chest at close range will stop any threat within reason, a couple of follow up blasts (because adrenalin will be running high) may well cease their intent to breathe. There is just nothing like using a 8.4mm x 70mm (measurements of a standard 12 gauge 2.75" shot shell) cannon to defend your home. Shotguns are the ORIGINAL point and click interface. Just sayin', YMMV.

 

Serious question Falcon, or for that matter anyone, will a load of 7-1/2 or 8 penetrate a human chest RELIABLY for sure DEEP ENOUGH to end the threat - every time?

You know the structure of a human chest is way - way way - different than a sheet of drywall.

Oh, and if you shoot them three times in the chest at close range with a 12ga isn't there some concern what a "reasonable person" (that ultimate legal measure) might think of that?

I'm *positive* opinions differ, but in that regard I personally would much rather be facing that measure after putting one slug, or load of buckshot, in their snot locker.

Yeah. The more I think about this the clearer it seems that what is right is what each of us decide for ourselves. All we can do is our best to make sure those decisions are based on realistic data and personal research.

 

Brass Fetcher Ballistic Gelatin testing 7.5 bird shot at 10'

I would say yes. With a nearly 6" deep penetration on both pellets and cavitation, they would be well and truly stopped.

Absolutely. You forcibly enter a home in Texas, you literally take your life into your own hands. We are authorized, by law, to end the threat with deadly force. 1 shot or 5. However based on real ballistic data, coupled with extensive research, one shot of bird shot should be more than sufficient at "hallway" or "interior room" distances.

Realistic enough data? I've done the research. It is rather conclusive. That being said, I still load 1 shell of #4 Buck, one 00 buck and a slug at the end of my mag (that is 4 bird, and a mixed bag at the end), and carry buck and slug on the butt stock mag and additional bird shot in my sling mag.

 

Interesting video... however there were some flaws all of the targets were resting on the wall surface, and facing the weapon... ther reason I use number 8 is if i have any one else in the house most of the force is stopped by the dry wall unless you are up against it...

additionally i have seen 00 buck shot litterally bounce off windshields... no penetration... a dose of number 8's will craze the glass and everything else will go right on through... ( this was the reason for inventing the .357 mag as a weapon... .38's could and did fail to penertate windshields...

 

Falcon,

thank you very much for taking the time to reply thoroughly.

Your "argument" is persuasive and clearly well considered. But I run up against a stumbling block right here:

At least as far as law enforcement and the military are concerned a minimum of 12" of penetration is necessary for a "reliable stop". Obviously that implies the tested load comes up a sliver short of making 50% of that depth.

Will it still reliably "end the threat"? Maybe. Possibly. Probably? I dunno.

Personally, I just can't justify settling for any of those when better options exist and are readily available. The risk outweighs the benefit. I can address shoot-through by doing a site survey, by talking with my neighbors frankly, by getting professional assistance to determine appropriate lines of fire and lines of no-fire, if necessary.

I could be wrong. Definitely could. But that seems to make pretty good sense to me - better than betting the farm on birdshot for something that ain't a bird.

 

Have to agree on the lack of penetration. I would NEVER count on a handgun that only had 5.9" of penetration, so why would I limit my shotgun to that? Falcon, I know your concern is over penetration inside the house, but if you lived alone would you still use birdshot? If there was a big guy in your house with a heavy jacket on standing sideways and you shoot him in the arm to get to his chest, it is quite possible that the pellets will not even penetrate the chest, although his arm will almost be blown off.

 

Strength in Diversity

Data is Data. I must agree that whereas bird/skeet shot may do the job, I load the same as Falcon 15 does. #4 Buck, 00 buck followed by a slug. Then Repeat.

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Now for something totally different.

This is from the For what it is worth department.

Local Sheriff Dept's buddy went to Atlanta last year and upon his return told me about a growing trend in the Atlanta Metro Area. He said that the newest trend in crime was that the thugs were wearing body armor and using Swat style tactics to take homes. (Did not think to ask if they were drug dealers Home or just home invasions.) He said that some of the locals had begun to load flechettes into their home defense weapons. Talk about your over penetration risk. He went on to say that the flechettes would penetrate the body armor like butter.
Again, for what it is worth.

Gafarmboy
If you can not protect what you own, you won't own it long

 

Having been shot by #7.5 shot at 30-40 yds I will tell you my 250# frame went down and out. One pellet penetrated over 8" into my rather ample abdomen. It did not kill me but the doctors had to field dress me anyways. Yeah, the surgery scar is purdy.

For my in home use I use hevi-shot Dead Coyote. 70+ pellets of 22 caliber T shot. At forty yards complete thru and thru on a coyote. Likely the same at 3-7 yards on a human. That is going to be devastating, on my attacker, but not the neighbors.

Here is the gelatin testing similar to the one above for #7.5.

Hevi-Shot Dead Coyote


Now for that ringing in my ears..... huh?? I hate shooting indoors.

 

This video clearly shows that the 00 buck and the wad have clearly separated with the wad inches BEHIND the shot string:

http://www.brassfetcher.com/12 gauge Remington 3 inch magnum 00 buckshot.wmv

The wad or shot cup have no influence on the kill power of the shot at 10 feet or more.

 

Personally I wouldn't want to be shot with any of it.

One thing gang bangers prove is first hit usually wins.

Personally I have a cylinder bore 870 with #4 for critters; however, I have used an AR on aggravating coyotes.

 

I see what you are saying, and even if I was alone, yes I would still load bird shot as my primary 4 shells. Taking someone's arm off, as in your example, pretty much takes the fight out of them. YMMV. Shoot center mass at 10-20 feet. Like I said, I load 4 shells of bird, followed by a #4 buck, 00 Buck and a slug final. I can rack 4 shells pretty damn fast so I am flexible. I do speed unload and load drills to keep myself in practice. Had SWAT officers (friends of mine) train myself and several friends in CQC with a shottie.

 

At inside house ranges, although it wouldn't be my choice bird shot would be adequate. A shotgun is good around the house; even infantry know that.

 

It's just my preference for liking heavy loads that penetrate deep. I would have went with 000, but the 00 loads have 50% more pellets and are only .03" smaller. I also only use the heaviest hollow point bullet weights in my defensive pistol loads.