Patterns from a Patternmaster tube. With Federal Tacticle loads(the reduced velocity loads mentioned above) the patterns were the size of a mans fist at 50 feet. NO LOST PELLETS!! If you do not believe it, try it. Patterns with 6 thru 9s at 10 yds were aprox 24". No holes, nice even dense patterns. This was thru a 28" 870 barrel. I shoot everything from Buckshot thru 3" steel and love it. Yes, you must aim. Hollywood is Hollywood. I remembered why I like an 870 over a Moss 500. Adding a magazine extension with a 500 is a mess. (I know, I did it once.) I made a 500 with a 28" barrel look like an over/under! As far as durability, 870/500/mdl 12 have proven themselves from WWI thru the present. I do not trust Autos for anything. (even rifles) I would take a double first. If you can find a Win 97 or Mdl 12, they do not have interrupters and will unload as fast as you can cycle it. (FUN AT NIGHT!!) Parts are not as easy as 870/500, but they rarely break. They are also limmited to 2 3/4" shells(there is a 3" mdl 12, but thay are pretty rare.) With an 870 with a 28" multi-choke barrel, a 20" rifled barrel, and a 22lr. You can handle 97% of everything that needs to be done. My 2 cents.
An approximately 4" group at 50 feet is very good! That would translate to nearly 12" at 50 yards. Have you tried that standard or magnum buckshot loads? I have no problem with a tight grouper that must be aimed like a rifle. It would give me more versatility. What kind of groups do you get with slugs and that device? jim
I use both 000 and 00. )) is always cheaper than 000, but 000 gruops better at 25 yards. My tube load is 2 #4 buck and 4 000 (#4 buck to be shot first)with 4 slugs and 2 000 in a side saddle.
I also have a large homemade side sadle. I decided I didnt like the slip on ones I had since shells kept falling out and it only held like 5 shells. So I found some deals on sale for cheap that are made to go around the cuff of your pant leg when useing waders then sewed 2" heavy elastic on to it to make the loops and now have a shell holder that wraps around the stock and fastens with velcro that holds up to 8 shells on each side of the stock. Between that and the 6 in the gun no need to have any in the pockets any more even to go out hunting. lol
According to whom? If this were so...then every soldier would be carrying one. Shotguns historically were cheap weapons given to LEO's so you wouldn't have to train much. They were also given out to local people by dictaors to fight off guerillas. Shotguns were considered short range weapons for self defense only......dictators were afraid to let the peasants have rifles that they could shoot people hundreds of yards away with. The shotgun is still in use in the US cause its Cheap! (except those cheaply constructed Benellis!). All are sporting designs that will not hold up to a steady diet of standard combat loads (except the Saiga AK types). Nor will they stand up to the heavy rigors of combat. The ammo is expensive compared to rifle ammo and has a very limited effective range. They kick heavily,which keeps most from shooting them often,which is also why most PD's are doing away with them and going to lighter recoiling and more effective rifles(Females and Metrosexual males not with standing!). Most people who buy shotguns are inexperience weapons users on a budget, PD's who are also on a budget and want something that supposedly does everything(but doesn't), or people who watch too much TV or too many movies that show the shotgun doing things it will never do. So if you're going to insult me....then at least do it with a little class.....or don't moderators/dictators have to do that?
Here are some good articles and links to the devastating damage shotguns can cause. They are far from useless, and I do not agree that they aren't up to the rigors of heavy use. http://www-medlib.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNBLST.html#2 Shotgun Ballistics <DL><DD>"Wounding is a function of the type of shot, or pellets, used in the shotgun shell. Weight, in general, is a constant for a shell so that 1 oz of shot would equal either 9 pellets of double O buckshot or 410 pellets of #8 birdshot. A 00 or "double ought" pellet is essentially equivalent to a low velocity .38 handgun projectile. The spread of the pellets as they leave the muzzle is determined by the "choke" or constriction of the barrel at the muzzle (from 0.003 to 0.04 inches). More choke means less spread. Full choke gives a 15 inch spread at 20 yards, while no choke gives a 30 inch spread at the same distance. (DeMuth et al, 1976) A "sawed-off" shotgun has a very short barrel so that, not only can it be concealed more easily, but also it can spray the pellets out over a wide area, because there is no choke. <DD>A shotgun shell is diagrammed below: </DD></DL><CENTER></CENTER><DL><DD>At close range, the pellets essentially act as one mass, and a typical shell would give the mass of pellets a muzzle velocity of 1300 fps and KE of 2100 ft/lb. At close range (less than 4 feet) an entrance wound would be about 1 inch diameter, and the wound cavity would contain wadding. At intermediate range (4 to 12 feet) the entrance wound is up to 2 inches diameter, but the borders may show individual pellet markings. Wadding may be found near the surface of the wound. Beyond 12 feet, choke, barrel length, and pellet size determine the wounding. <DD>If the energy is divided between the pellets, it can be seen that fewer, larger pellets will carry more KE, but the spread may carry them away from the target. Pellets, being spherical, are poor projectiles, and most small pellets will not penetrate skin after 80 yards. Thus, close range wounds are severe, but at even relatively short distances, wounding may be minimal. Range is the most important factor, and can be estimated in over half of cases, as can the shot size used. (Wilson, 1978) A rifled slug fired from a shotgun may have a range of 800 yards. (Mattoo et al, 1974) <DD>Shotgun slugs can produce significant injury, because of the slug's size and mass. At close range, survival is rare. In treating shotgun injuries, it is necessary to remember that the plastic shell carrier and the wadding (which may not appear on radiographs) can also cause tissue damage and may need to be found and removed. (Gestring ML et al, 1996)" </DD></DL>Here is a really good test on not only shotgun, but handgun and rifle bullets. http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm "Lessons learned: 1. Notice that the #4 and #1 Buck penetrated 6 boards. In previous tests, 9mm, .45 ACP, and M-193 out of an AR all penetrated all 12 boards. So, it seems that these loads do not "over-penetrate" as much as some have led us to believe. The 00 Buck penetrated 8 boards, but was stopped by the 9th. Still not as much penetration as the pistol or rifle loads. The slug penetrated all 12 boards. 2. Once again, please notice the size of the entrance spreads....2 1/2" to 3 1/2". Therefore, anyone that says, "With a shotgun, you don't even have to aim. Just point it in the general area of the bad guy, and you can't miss", does not know what they are talking about. You can very easily miss with a shotgun. You must aim to hit your target. 3. The slugs were "bad" penetrators. By that, I mean that they will penetrate several interior walls. If you have loved ones in your home, consider this as you select your home defense weapon. 4. I "racked" the shotgun several times during the tests, and no bystanders lost control of their bowels. Conclusion: Racking a shotgun will not make the bad guy faint. Frankly, I was surprised that the shotgun did not penetrate more than it did. I had been led to believe that they penetrated more than a .223 rifle or a 9mm or .45 ACP. Such was not the case. Amazing what you can learn by doing a little testing. Birdshot as a Defense Load I have had a lot of questions, summed up as follows: How effective is birdshot (#4, #6, #8, etc.) as a defense load? We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in the paper on the front of the second wall. The problem with birdshot is that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round. Birdshot is designed to bring down little birds. A policeman told of seeing a guy shot at close range with a load of 12 gauge birdshot, and was not even knocked down. He was still walking around when the EMTs got there. It was an ugly, shallow wound, but did not STOP the guy. And that is what we want... to STOP the bad guy from whatever he is doing. To do this, you must have a load that will reach the vitals of the bad guy. Birdshot will not do this. In fact, tests have shown that even #4 Buckshot lacks the necessary penetration to reach the vital organs. Only 0 Buck, 00 Buck, and 000 Buck penetrate enough to reach the vital organs. Unless you expect to be attacked by little birds, do not use birdshot. Use 00 Buck. It will do the job. But doesn't 00 Buck penetrate too much in interior walls to be a "safe" load in a home? Yes, it does penetrate a lot. But any load that is going to be effective will need to penetrate walls to have enough power to penetrate bad guys. If our only concern was to be sure we didn't penetrate walls, we would use BB guns. However, BB guns will not stop bad guys. Therefore, we must use loads that will STOP bad guys, and this means that they will also penetrate walls. So, be sure you hit the bad guy and do not shoot into walls where loved ones are on the other side. " See above. The shotgun with buckshot actually has LESS penetration than the handgun and rifle loads. Not to mention that the entrance wound is huge. The '"OO" projectiles cause extensive tissue damage, shock is greater, and the kinetic energy is dumped within the body cavity. You will get no argument from me there, personally thought I would rather have both. A .556/.308 for distance work, but a shotgun for close in CQB stuff. The shotgun is ammo is more. I agree that most do not train enough, for that matter they don't train enough with their rifles or handguns either. I have not had any trouble with either my Mossberg 500 or my Remington Tactical 870. I would hardly call them "junk." Yes, BUT the "OO" load has NINE TIMES the amount of bullets all at the same pull of the trigger. You can't have pre-loaded slugs staggered behind a couple of rounds of buckshot in your tube? Here is a really good article written by a surgeon. Don't just read the excerpt below, but go to the link, read the entire article and look at the pics of the x-rays and the pics of tissue damage. http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=1238294&blobtype=pdf "As stated earlier, range is the major determinant of wounding capacity using any given load. When a 12-gauge shotgun blast loaded with No. 6 shot is observed clinically, at 6 feet the wound inflicted is essentially a central blast, whereas at 24 feet the pattern is that the bulk of pellets has begun to spread out concentrically (although they are still contained within a 6-inch circle). For instance, a 12-gauge shotgun loaded with a No. 6 shell gives a muzzle velocity of about 1,300 feet per second and will penetrate a 4-inch thick telephone book when fired from a distance of 12 feet; it will produce a 6 cm defect and will release 2,300 foot-pounds of energy. As noted in a previous discussion on wound ballistics,' the ideal antihuman projectile would be one that dissipates all its energy within 15 cm of the point of penetration. At close range, the highly lethal shotgun certainly meets this criterion. As with other firearms, the kinetic energy expended is equal to mass X velocity2 2g When one studies the kinetic energy of pellets fired at different ranges, it becomes apparent why shotgun charges and rifle projectiles behave so differently at ranges over a few yards. At a range of 40 yards-a small distance for a high-powered rifle-shotgun pellets would have lost more than half of their original energy. But, at close range an interesting comparison can be made between the 55-grain, 5.56 mm M-16 rifle (used by the United States armed forces in Vietnam) and the 12-gauge shotgun. The M-16 has a muzzle energy of 1,250 foot-pounds, whereas a 12-gauge shotgun with No. 5 shot has an energy of 2,247 footpounds. Again, range is the key factor. It can easily be seen why the shotgun is so lethal at close range." "As might be expected, victims of close range 00 buckshot wounds seldom reach the hospital." CQB stands for "Close Quarters Battle." It is not the end all, it is primarily for combat in close quarters. That's funny, I think you just about insulted/included everyone on this board. I can't think of maybe one or two hunters/shooters that I know that do not have a shotgun. I guess we are all ignorant, untrained imbecils who simply want cheap weapons. I do however watch more TV than I should. Actually, I didn't insult you. I raised the bs flag because I don't agree with your assertion that shotguns are junk and that they are only in use in the U.S. because they are cheap. I am sorry if you think that I/we are dictators here, I believe we have a board that allows a lot of individual freedom.
The only thing I could add to that, the reason most PDs are transitioning away from the shotgun is not lack of effectiveness on the part of the shotgun, its the officers themselves. Fewer and fewer hunt, it takes more work and time to remain proficient with a shotgun than a little wimpy 9mm or 5.56. The thing to remember, one pellet may be equivalent to a 9mm or .38 bullet, but you put 9 of them in the BG at one time. A shotgun is far more devastating than a pistol, even a .45 ACP at typical pistol range. I would advise reading some about the US Army and Marines use of the shotgun in combat in Vietnam, and the British SAS in Malaysia.
The old kinetic energy arguement! Kinetic energy doesn't mean anything when it comes to bullet wounds. I have seen enough people shot with many different weapons to know this(25 years worth). The Marshall/Sanow stats have been proven to be false and unscientific. Try doing a little more research in the wound ballistic area by reading Fackler. He actually walked the walk and knows what bullet does what wound......not some theoretical kinetic energy crap. Handgun velocity projectiles cause tissue destruction by crushing or cutting.....not by some mysterious kinetic energy that is supposedly dumped into the body or super bullet mushrooming. Its the same as shooting someone with a bow and arrow....hemorrhage......not shocking power.....(a mis-used term). Thats why people don't immediately cease when shot until they bleed out like a deer. Rifle bullets above 2000 fps have hydro-static shock capabilities. Tissue destruction is magnified as it's rapidly displaced and secondary missiles from bullet and bone fragments cause even more wounds outward from the bullet's path. So shotguns don't have what all the supposed gun magazine experts say they do. Plus every pellet that misses your BG has a lawyer attached to it and may God help you if it hits someone down range. Then comes the court battle with the local DA(who's bucking for re-election on your conviction!) holding up your Super-Commando-SWAT-Special Forces-look-alike Shotgun with all its bayonet lugs,sidesaddles,mag extensions,folding stocks,flashlights,super lasers,and God-knows what else for all the "Soccer-Moms of the jury" to see! I'd be willing to bet it won't be good for you. Then comes your new accomodations on your wedding night in your exotic State-Run-Hotel-For-Wayward-Men with you as the Bride in your honeymoon suite for two!!! Your new husband, a Fifty Cent or Snoop Doggy Dog wannabe ,will probably be related to your shootee in some form or another which will endear him to you even more.(Maybe he'll cuddle with you more or introduce you to all your new neighbors on the cell block!!?). Hint: Bring plenty of K-Y with the Lidocaine additive for better comfort! While you're laying there together on your wedding bunk!....you can be thinking about why you bought that stupid piece of junk shotgun that all your friends have or the one that all the gun magazine commandos told you "Must" have! Then you'll have to worry about dealing with the relatives of the person (or persons) that your stray pellets hit (the ones with all that super kinetic energy!) when you get out of your wedding suite. Oh! I almost forgot! Then you'll have to get a lawyer to represent you in the civil case for the law suite that the family of the deceased brings against you for being so stupid in letting a stray pellet injure/maim/kill some innocent person. Good luck.....and post your experiences on this forum when you get out so we can all learn from your mistakes!
Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by NY PRO The old kinetic energy arguement! Kinetic energy doesn't mean anything when it comes to bullet wounds. I have seen enough people shot with many different weapons to know this(25 years worth). The Marshall/Sanow stats have been proven to be false and unscientific. Try doing a little more research in the wound ballistic area by reading Fackler. He actually walked the walk and knows what bullet does what wound......not some theoretical kinetic energy crap. Handgun velocity projectiles cause tissue destruction by crushing or cutting.....not by some mysterious kinetic energy that is supposedly dumped into the body or super bullet mushrooming. Its the same as shooting someone with a bow and arrow....hemorrhage......not shocking power.....(a mis-used term). Thats why people don't immediately cease when shot until they bleed out like a deer. Rifle bullets above 2000 fps have hydro-static shock capabilities. Tissue destruction is magnified as it's rapidly displaced and secondary missiles from bullet and bone fragments cause even more wounds outward from the bullet's path. So shotguns don't have what all the supposed gun magazine experts say they do. Plus every pellet that misses your BG has a lawyer attached to it and may God help you if it hits someone down range. Then comes the court battle with the local DA(who's bucking for re-election on your conviction!) holding up your Super-Commando-SWAT-Special Forces-look-alike Shotgun with all its bayonet lugs,sidesaddles,mag extensions,folding stocks,flashlights,super lasers,and God-knows what else for all the "Soccer-Moms of the jury" to see! I'd be willing to bet it won't be good for you. Then comes your new accomodations on your wedding night in your exotic State-Run-Hotel-For-Wayward-Men with you as the Bride in your honeymoon suite for two!!! Your new husband, a Fifty Cent or Snoop Doggy Dog wannabe ,will probably be related to your shootee in some form or another which will endear him to you even more.(Maybe he'll cuddle with you more or introduce you to all your new neighbors on the cell block!!?). Hint: Bring plenty of K-Y with the Lidocaine additive for better comfort! While you're laying there together on your wedding bunk!....you can be thinking about why you bought that stupid piece of junk shotgun that all your friends have or the one that all the gun magazine commandos told you "Must" have! Then you'll have to worry about dealing with the relatives of the person (or persons) that your stray pellets hit (the ones with all that super kinetic energy!) when you get out of your wedding suite. Oh! I almost forgot! Then you'll have to get a lawyer to represent you in the civil case for the law suite that the family of the deceased brings against you for being so stupid in letting a stray pellet injure/maim/kill some innocent person. Good luck.....and post your experiences on this forum when you get out so we can all learn from your mistakes! </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> You are obviously the expert, not the M.D. that wrote the article that I referenced and provided a link for, which you obviously didn't read either. You provide nothing to back up your baloney but hot air. At least I went to the trouble to actually back up my post with credible articles. Believe what you wish, I refuse to argue any more about it as you are not going to convince anyone with any sense, and I am not going to attempt to convince you. Speaking about no class.........with all of your references about the jailhouse wedding suite you must be the expert on that also.
So would that be the same honeymoon suite you get when your rifle bullet (or even a lot of handgun bullets) passes through the guy you were able to get the good shot on, since it obviously couldnt be a stray shot that missed, then passes through a few walls and goes through another someone else a block or more away? Or do they just pat you on the back then and tell you it was no big deal since you didnt use some evil shotgun? For close quarter combat, you know like in side of a house where maximum ranges are generaly around 30' or more often around 20', then the shotgun has everything you need (with a proper load) for penetration but is less likely to go through several walls and hit a neighbor. While a rifle is better for long ranges and a handgun is more practical for carrying on you for protection on the go, the shotgun absolutely has its uses for efective defence. If you think all shotguns, or even most of them are tricked out robocop looking things with all kinds of add ons hanging off of them then it clearly demonstrates ignorance of shotguns. I have 3 of them and there is nothing tactical looking about any of them or most of them that I have seen, that is FAR more common on handguns and rifles. If I ever have to shoot someone and have a lawyer wave the gun in front of all the 'soccer moms' in the jury I would MUCH rather have him waveing around any of my shotguns that my revolver let alone my SKS or AK.
The shotgun has become an indispensable weapon in urban and close quarters fighting. New gun manufacturing techniques, along with new munitions, ensure the longevity of the weapon. By Adam Geibel The war on terror has inspired the development of combat shotguns for breaching, non-lethal operations and close quarter battle. This occurred by optimizing the standard pump or semi-automatic 12-gauge for these environments. Some options include shrinking some designs so that they could be mated to the soldier’s primary weapon. The latest developments are lightweight packages that are specially built and barely resembling their forbearers. Conventional units are finding shotguns useful in the close quarters battle. During the 3rd Battalion, 15th Infantry Regiment’s eight-hour Baghdad fight with Syrian mercenaries on April 7, 2003, Private First Class Christopher Nauman was wounded. While being carried off on a stretcher, he saw a “dead” enemy soldier grab an AK-47. MSNBC showed footage of Nauman sitting up and firing his 12-gauge shotgun twice, killing the enemy soldier. Having a cone of fire that can take down the target as opposed to a single straight line bullet is a tremendous advantage when the range to the target might be measured in feet instead yards. Technology advancements have increased the knockdown power and lethality of the shotgun. First Steps In OptimizationWith many units and agencies using reduced recoil buckshot and slugs, conventional fixed choke shotguns often do not pattern well. The user should be able to select the appropriate choke for ammunition they are using, so that they can get tighter, more controlled patterns. When wearing body armor or a tactical vest, the shooter needs a shorter stock. Back-bored and ported barrels enhance recoil reduction, while combat sights reduce acquisition time. Remington has a range that includes the 870P pump, 11-87P gas-operated shotguns and the new 870 Modular Combat Shotgun (MCS). The MCS centers around the proprietary REM LOC quick change stock system and allows the weapon to be configured with a 10-inch breaching, 14-inch tactical or 18-inch rifle sighted barrel, pistol grips or stocks and magazine tube capacities to meet changing tactical situations quickly and without tools. It can also fire multiple ammunition sizes and types and can mount underneath an M4/M16 as an accessory weapon. A design is nearly complete to also mount the MCS underneath the experimental XM8. The MCS also comes with a receiver mounted Picatinny rail, cleaning kit, ammunition sidesaddle and discreet protective weapons case. Whether as an accessory weapon, a breaching tool, a close quarters battle weapon or a conventional high capacity shotgun, the MCS is all four in one. MCS shotgun systems have just returned from successful combat trials in and around Baghdad. In addition the U.S. Marine Corps and Air Force and the Israeli Ministry of Defence are reportedly showing interest in the MCS. The 870-series is an industry standards upon which many modifications can be based. For instance, the Wilson Combat Scattergun is an 870 with an 18-inch cylinder bore barrel, a seven-round extended magazine with four or six shot side saddle shell carrier, a black synthetic stock, 6-volt SURE-FIRE Tactical Light and a rust resistant finish. The Professional model has a 14-inch barrel and five-round magazine. The firm also touts their patented TRAK-LOCK Ghost Ring Sight System as being able to deliver rifle-like accuracy, even under low-light conditions. Wilson will even refurbish a customer’s shotgun to their standards. Another low cost option, from the Canadian firm Argonaut Armament’s AR15-870 CQB Stock Adapter, allows an M4/SOPMOD CQB style telescoping/ collapsible butt stock to be mounted in-line to the Remington 870 shotgun. While fairly new, these have been tested by special forces units and law enforcement tactical units. However, according to Argonaut’s owner Jason de Jong, some sort of elevated sighting platform is required to make a shotgun equipped with their stock adapter useful for more than just a breaching tool or extreme close quarters weapon. Their receiver-length Picatinny rail allows the EOTech 550 Series Holographic Diffraction sight, Aimpoint CompM2 Red Dot optical gunsight or any of the various 1913 Picatinny-compatible flip-up iron sights to be mounted. They are in the process of designing a more consumer friendly full-length rail system to increase the number of options. Fabrique National created their Tactical Police Shotgun by fitting the police shotgun with a collapsible/adjustable stock pistol grip and sights of the M16 rifle, so that the ergonomics would be familiar to those already accustomed to the M16 family. This shotgun also has the advantages of an FN Internal Tactical Choke, Picatinny rail and adjustable stock that will adjust to fit most shooters, with or without body armor. The rail system is drilled and tapped to accept an optional C-More sight. Since more shooters are physically smaller or wearing body armor, the FN Police Shotgun has a length of pull of 13.5 inches—.5 to .75 of an inch shorter than most other shotguns. All guns are supplied with two screwed in choke tubes, an improved cylinder and modified tube. The Benelli M4 Super 90 is another semi-automatic design, officially adopted by the U.S. military as the M1014 or Joint Services Combat Shotgun. Benelli engineers developed this unique auto regulating gas operated shotgun to meet military needs, incorporating an auto-regulating gas-operating design that uses dual stainless steel self-cleaning pistons located just ahead of the chamber. These operate directly against the rotating bolt, eliminating the need for complex linkages found on other gas autos. The M4/M1014 is modular in construction; one possible configuration is an entry gun with 355 mm barrel and pistol grip The Italian firm Fabbrica Bresciana Armi S.p.A. (FABARM) offers the pump FP6 and Tactical Semi-Auto, which are imported and distributed by Heckler & Koch (HK). Their most innovative aspect is the TriBore system, which they claim offers higher velocities, superior patterning and lower recoil. The “over bore region” is just in front of the chamber and the forcing cone, and a second bore, the “first choke region,” is in the middle of the barrel, creating a standard shotgun cylinder bore profile. This permits the shot column to increase in velocity. The third bore is a unique combination of standard choking followed by a cylinder profile area just before the shot column leaves the barrel—ensuring uniform distribution and patterning. The added “porting” bleeds off excess expanding gas in the barrel in a sideward direction and dampens the recoil. This system has all the advantages of back-boring but with the added benefit of less felt recoil. Important operational features include the ability to mount a Picatinny rail on the extended forearm and a rail mount built into the receiver. For early entry use, HK offers a 14-inch barrel. Under-Barrel DesignsWhere once conventional pump or semiautomatic shotguns would suffice, there has been a trend to mount lighter versions under the soldier’s primary weapon (M203 style). The big advantage of the under-barrel design is that the soldier doesn’t have to sling his primary weapon to use the shotgun, although some shooters prefer the controllability of a dedicated stock. Designs like the Cieiner Ultimate mated a Remington 870 to an M16 rifle by using the bayonet lug as the basic fixing point and with the shotgun stock removed, as a yoke adaptor to the M16 receiver. However, it was determined that longer barrels or even five-round magazine tubes were unnecessary. The Knight’s Armament Company (KAC) Masterkey is one example of a derivative design, a 12-gauge Remington 870P with a barrel shortened to 10-inches and a four-round capacity (3 + 1). While this is designed to fit under the KAC Modular Weapon System using MIL-STD-1913 Picatinny rails, a standalone stock module is available. This is a three-position collapsible stock with multiple sling attachment points, as well as a rear leaf sight (100-350 meters), a front fixed sight and two quick release push-button 1 1/4-inch sling swivels. The Lightweight Shotgun SystemDevelopment of the Ultra Lightweight Under-Barrel Lethal/Non-Lethal Shotgun System (LSS) began in 1999 by Colt’s Manufacturing Co. Inc. and continued with C-More of Manassas, VA. The LSS was 100 percent designed from the bottom up to military requirements, using no off-the-shelf components. The LSS attaches underneath the barrel of an individual infantry weapon like the M4 carbine or the experimental XM8. According to Lieutenant Colonel Matthew Clarke, Program Executive Office Soldier program manager for Individual Weapons, the initial lot was so small that each gun was handmade. During testing, about 15,000 rounds were fired through the 200 systems going to the field. The 10th Mountain Division in Afghanistan requested the LSS as “an urgent operational need” and in October 2003, 199 were delivered. They were initially issued one per squad, although the plan was to get one in every fire team. According to Major Trevor Shaw, assistant program manager, Individual Weapons, PEO Soldier, several other brigade-size elements have submitted Operational Needs Statements for the LSS. This demand will be filled with the current LSS design over the next 3 to 8 months. Picatinny plans to collect comments from after action reports when the 10th returns to the United States in May/June, to survey for any necessary modifications to the system. At 16.5-inches overall length and with only a 7 3/4-inch barrel, it still weighs less than the M203 grenade launcher. The stand-alone version with pistol grip and stock weighs 4 pounds, 3 ounces and is 24-inches long collapsed. The 2 pound, 11 ounce shotgun uses a straight-pull bolt action that can be switched for either left or right-handed users—the safety is also ambidextrous. C-More’s five-round, box-magazine can hold 2 3/4- and 3-inch lethal, non-lethal and door-breaching rounds. Idaho Integrated Breaching ShotgunThe Idaho National Engineering and Environmental Laboratory received a similar request for a magazine-fed shotgun attached to an assault rifle that came from a federal law enforcement agency through the Department of Energy (DOE) Office of Intelligence’s Applied Technology Program—a program within DOE that matches technology needs throughout the federal arena to researchers within the national laboratory system. In the prototype’s design, the bolt is held stationary while the receiver and barrel move forward, allowing the receiver to be shortened and the barrel to be lengthened. The IIBS was designed by a team led by Richard Watson, David Crandall, Steve Frickey and Mike Occhionero. Crandall had a firearms background (being a member of the U.S. Palma Team and frequently shooting competitively) and served as Watson’s sounding board, while they implemented and integrated ideas from whiteboard sketches into autocad drawings. While remaining practical, the team wasn’t bound by convention. According to Richard Watson, IIBS’s designer, the trigger is located in the shotgun’s handguard, inside of what would be comparable to the tube magazine on a standard pump 12-gauge. Watson proudly points out that the IIBS can be cycled and fired without the shooter moving his hands off the primary weapon, which can be fired simultaneously, if need be. The replaceable Valtro PM-5 box magazine makes it easier to rapidly reload or select alternate rounds. The IIBS is currently a one off prototype and not commercially available, although the developers are applying for five patents. While it only takes four months to produce the first working prototype, they are working on some refinements to the design and hope to begin fabrication of an improved version soon. Peripheral GearWith the per-cartridge expense of most breaching rounds, a separate storage pouch is preferable to field-expedients like canteen covers or 20-round M4 pouches. SFG/SOTECH tactical gear makes a breaching shotgun ammo module in double-layered 1000 Denier DuPont Cordura Plus fabric, double layered, with each of its three pouches holding eight cartridges. These items are made to order, taking up to eight weeks for production and/or delivery, although additional time may be required for non-standard colors/patterns. A simple and cost-effective solution is to add after-market items to a standard shotgun. The Sage International Ltd. Lockbuster Stand-off is a special magazine cap that can be interchanged with a standard magazine cap at the owner’s discretion. When using special-purpose door-breaching ammunition, this device ensures precise positioning of the shotgun barrel and proper barrel venting, which shaves precious seconds off of the entry operation. Breaching RoundsWith the level of military operations carried out in urban terrain (MOUT) environments, a forced entry is frequently demanded, and yet explosives, which are the preferred method, aren’t always available or practical. In Afghanistan and Iraq, raids capturing suspected terrorists are often announced with a shotgun blast to the door lock of a suspect’s house. Even the military police’s special reactions teams have a breaching round requirement for hostage rescue, barricaded suspect and response force missions. The recommended standoff distance for shotgun breaching is 0 to 2 inches, with 0 inches the preferred distance. Having the muzzle of the shotgun against the lock or hinge makes it less likely that the shotgun will move off target. Specialized “door-buster” rounds then disintegrate locks or hinges. Some prefer simple 00 buckshot or even an old field-expedient technique of making the projectile from dental plaster, although a wide selection of rounds are commercially available. Sage International offers a selection of lead and non-toxic door breaching ammunition (known as Lockbusters) to go with their stand-off muzzle attachment. A.L.S. Technologies manufactures the Door Breacher with a 17-gram (262 grain) frangible projectile made of iron dust and a ceramic binder, which produces 1,489 foot pounds of energy into an area .75 inches diameter. The company advises that the Door Breacher must never be fired with the muzzle of the shotgun less than 1 inch from the door lock, so muzzle attachments are necessary. Several distributors offer the tactical knock-out (TKO) frangible slug, a translucent shell loaded with a compressed zinc slug, while Precision Made Cartridges (PMC) offers a round loaded with fine metal shot, bound in a special matrix that allows breakup into a fine powder upon impact. Tactical & Survival Specialties, Inc. (TSSI) offers the Royal Arms line of frangible 12-gauge breaching ammunition. The 12-gauge Lock and Hinge Avon Breaching Slug has a 260 grain compressed copper projectile and the Heavy Lock and Hinge Avon Breaching Slug 400 grains, while the All Lock and Hinge Clayvon Breaching Slug has a 365 grain clay and steel dust projectile. Remington also manufactures a frangible slug and frangible buckshot load that are made of compressed iron powder that are designed to disintegrate upon impact but defeat door locks and hinges. As this article is being written, Picatinny Arsenal’s Maneuver Ammunition Systems is looking for a contractor to manufacture 90,000 to 120,000 M1030 12-gauge shotgun breaching cartridges. The basic contract is planned for award, with options, in FY05. FlockingWhat made the shotgun the best weapon for bringing down large flocks of birds is the exact quality that makes it great in an urban environment. It will never be a general purpose weapon, but the shotgun will have a place in the arsenal of any unit that finds itself in close quarter engagements.
After successfully testing a nine pound shotgun attachment (that went under the barrel of an M-16) in Afghanistan late last year, the army is shipping a new, and lighter, weapon of the same type to Afghanistan. The LSS (Lightweight Shotgun System) weighs less than three pounds ( 2 pounds, 11 ounces) and has a five round magazine, versus three for the earlier, nine pound, "Masterkey Breaching Module." The LSS is a 16.5 inch long, 12 gauge shotgun and can be operated right or left handed. It fires solid shot for blasting open closed doors, or lower velocity, non-lethal (most of the time) rubber slugs for dealing with hostile crowds without killing people. A stand-alone version weighs 4 pounds, 3 ounces, is 24 inches long (with the stock collapsed). The LSS was rushed through development, testing and manufacturing because troops in Iraq expressed a need for this weapon. A batch of 200 have been produced and 50 are on their way to Afghanistan for field tests during actual operations. The LSS proved very reliable during testing, with some 15,000 rounds being fired.
Effectiveness A Joint Service Combat Shotgun Program report on the legality of shotguns in war states, in support of the use of the shotgun in warfare, "the probability of hitting a man-sized target with a shotgun was superior to that of all other weapons", and goes on to support this with statistics compiled by the British from the conflict in Borneo in the 1960s. The buckshot typically used in a combat shotgun spreads out to a greater or lesser degree depending on the barrel choke, and can be effective at ranges as far as 75 yards (70 m). The delivery of the large number of projectiles simultaneously makes the shotgun the most effective short range weapon commonly used, with a hit probability 45% greater than a submachine gun, and twice as great as an assault rifle. While each pellet is only as effective as a small caliber handgun, and offers very poor penetration against an armored target, the multiple projectiles increases the likelihood of one or more peripheral wounds. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_shotgun
My buddy that was on the Point man (armed with a Reminngton 870) on an Army Ranger Urban Combat Team would probably disagree that the shotgun is useless in combat.
Well that solves that little question. I was wondering why the XM8 hadn't been finished and deployed. Seems Matel has found how to add yet another gimpy thing to the M16 and people love it, with the exception of the people who count; the ones in the field who have to use it.
Thanks for posting the medical report.GOOD SOLID INFORMATION! What we were taught ( The AFOSI academy)about the sg was the stringing effect of the 00 introduces a time element to the trauma where the body isn't absorbing a single impact and rebounding, but hit several times in rapid sucession increases the trauma and shock to the nervous system. I'm not reaL sure you guy settled your argument( its late and I'm getting too fuzzy to reread all that carefully) but IMHO: If it walks, swims ,crawls or flys you can kill it with a 12ga.It is obviously imposing and cute "butts pinching off rebar" comments aside, people instinctively know what the sound of a 12ga being racked means. I don'tlike the recoil, but ammo is available worldwide, easily reloded, thy're simple to use,versatile, and if not too tricked out ( i.e. nopistol grip/ top folder) less likely to draw courtroom angst..Seems like a an all around winner for personnal defense for me.
