Bulk military powder

Any one dip their toe in the world of bulk military powder?
What's not to love? It's cheap, real cheap, lot to lot consistency sucks, chances are you will be developing loads for each lot but it's so cheap just buy a lifetime supply, or enough to load several tens of thousands of rounds. Some of them are weird, just takes some experimenting to find loads.
When I say cheap it's around half the price of domestically made commercial powder.
The one I have now is called CBI made by general dynamics (possibly), it's single base, low density powder and appears to be used in 155mm igniters. It even stands for Clean Burning Initiators. The fact it's used in 155mm cannons makes it more bad ass.
I have been trying it in 9x19 and it works ok, problem is I can't fit enough powder in there. Seems like it would be ideal in 45colt, 38spl, 357mag, maybe 45acp.
Looks like CBI is back in stock at CDVS dot US, probably because no one knows what to do with it.
It might not be acceptable for 380acp.
It appears to be barely acceptable for 9mm with 115 and 124gr bullets, the case is full with 5.5gr** and that's barely enough to cycle my gun with a 90gr bullet.
In 45acp I expect it to run good, as 45 has about double the case capacity, so it should hold 10 or 11gr, I think 10gr would blow up a 1911 so I should be able to get enough cbi in there to make it run.
With blackpowder and large capacity pistol rounds like 38spl, 357mag, 45colt, hot 44spl it should be perfect.
A 38spl shell will hold 10gr, you will want your starting load to be some where around 5gr with a 125gr bullet.
The lot I have burns kind of like universal but is very fluffy like trailboss.

** that's a once fired federal 9mm brass. Most new brass holds 5.2 or 5.3gr. Some CBI is lower density and new cases only hold 5gr.

 

Awe MAN, you let the cat outta the bag, MAN! This has been a super Secret for years in our household, We have been stocking up on the Mil Equivalent of IMR 4350 and other rifle powders, perfect for the long guns from 5.56 on up! We have also been getting the M-888 powders for the magnums and other large bore that need the slower powders! Cost wise has been around 1/3 to 1/2 of commercial powders and consistency has been great! Load data is by the book with these powders, so start out low and work slowly up to best with chosen bullets and you will do well! Recently found that the Mil Powders have changed and are now running slightly faster then before, so care must be taken here, use Hodgdons load data carefully and work slowly with the ladder tests to find what works in your rifles! For pistol powders, CBI is too fluffy and slow, they list other powders, so you would have to experiment with them to find what works where, use .45 Colt in a rifle to test these out, and start out near powder puff loads to get the feel of them!

 

Do you find CBI as being corrosive at all?
One of the ingredients is KNO3.
Instead of "cbi" they should have named it "fluffy". That sounds better than MIL-P-60356A.

 

Knob Creek Machine Gun Shoot and Gun Show is my source for bulk surplus powders, bullets, brasdon't know how they'll be doing on primers this Spring.

 

CBI burns relatively fast, it's just really low density.
10 or 11gr will fit in a 45acp case, but if you loaded a 45acp round with that much cbi and fired it. I bet it would disassemble a 1911 at high velocity.

 

I buy all the Win 231 I can find for my pistols and have great loads worked for all of them except that when I shoot my .38 Open Division race gun, I use Vitavouri N105 to the rim and packed. Do not use that on a gun that isn't compensated and made for it, that's a hot major factor load, I won't shoot it in my Smith and Wesson .38 Super N-Frame revolver and it's a beast. I have so much military surplus ammo in 7.62 (including 39mm) , 5.56, .30-06, 8mm Mauser, .30 carbine, I hardly load for rifle any more but do have two 5 gallon buckets of military powder for them should I ever decide to stuff a few. Got some powders for long range loading but have more loaded than I'll ever shoot. >300AAC is my present project load, stuffing a lot of sub-sonic and a few hunting rounds.
Oh, and thanks for the load data, Gator.

 

The gun is a Beretta 92fs with silencerCo barrel.
Factory rem 115gr did good, got them all in the black at 27yd, gun cycles great, throws the shells about 6 feet.

First test was 3.9 to 4gr Sierra 115gr hp, win brass, winchester WSR primer, It burns clean and smells like WST (winchester super target). 4gr wouldn't cycle the gun with or without a full mag, it was able to recock the hammer, felt like shooting a big full sized 380. 4gr burned clean. Accuracy was a disaster.

4.5 to 4.4gr was nice. Recoil was soft, gun cycles softly, drops the shells at my feet, cbi burns clean, accuracy was bad, I think the brass landed in a closer group than the bullets.

4.9 to 5gr felt and sounded more like the factory Remington 115gr. The brass landed close to the Remington brass and bullets went super sonic. Accuracy was better but still not as good as factory ammo. I'm going to say with out a chronograph, 5gr of cbi for a 115gr bullet is probably the max load, for now.

So this lot probably doesn't burn quite as fast as bullseye. Probably burns more like universal, W231 or HP38 but this stuff is more fluffy than any of those.

Military powder is known for inconsistent lots. You have to develop your own loads. Do your starting load like you would for bullseye, clays, reddot, titewad, ect.

The 92 with silencerCo barrel shooting that factory 115gr Remington came in at 1180 to 1190 all in the black.

In the 92,
cbi 5gr 1147, 1187, 1160, 1191, 1181
5.5gr 1201, 1218, 1240,1225, this is getting into plus pee level. Felt like plus pee. Accuracy was better.

1911a1 control 856, 840, 856, 667, 790, 650, 680, 821, 611, 830, not much of a control, was factory win and fed. Velocity and accuracy both all over the place. Worst control ever.

230gr brass fmj armscor over 5gr of cbi in old W-W case, Win large pistol primer, coal = 1.255
710, 660, 500, barely cycled the gun. Only did 3 because I didn't expect it to cycle the gun.

5.5gr 786, 844, 792, 798, 751 recoil was pleasant, accuracy kind of sucks.

6gr, 770, 763, 852, 765, 773, you knew you were shooting a 45, but not as sharp and as uncomfortable as the factory ammo. Accuracy was better but shot high.
The factory ammo was more scarry.
6gr of cbi seems safe enough to push it to 6.5gr.

Seems that cbi likes to run a full or fullish case, likes being compressed.

 

Looking at 5.5gr vs 6gr in 45acp the small sample size is just about indistinguishable. Where 5gr vs 5.5gr in a 9x19 is very noticeable, I got a clear 40 to 50 fps boost.
I wonder is my cbi not capable of burning fast enough and completely at 45acp pressure?
That would mean this stuff is pretty slow.
I'm going to bump my 45acp loads to 6.5gr and retest. In a 45acp this stuff is kind of loading like unique, but unique is a double base.
I got some 38spl ready to test. Loaded up 5.5 and 6gr with 125gr bullets. 6gr of cbi in a 38spl is probably at least plus pee, so only fire in a 357mag rated gun. I would say only develop 38spl loads in a 357mag gun and use a chronograph.

Remember every lot of cbi is different, looks like you don't have to treat it like bullseye, titewad or reddot always start at least at or below the starting load for universal, HP38/231, ect.

 

I think this stuff would be an ideal candidate for a double base conversion.

 

Late to the party, but yeah I use surplus power all the time in my rifles and have for years. I try and buy it 64lbs at a time. I find that way it's usually all the same lot. I do check loads through a crono every time I open a new keg. For pistol Win 231 pretty well covers everything I need.

 

I don't like using filler and bullseye in a .45acp leaves a lot of empty space so you need really hot primers to insure detonation in certain firing positions like shooting snakes at your feet or you might get a sqib.

 

In a 45acp anything over about 6gr of cbi is starting to be a compressed load.
The scarry thing is a lot of people load bullseye because "you only need 4gr".
The fastest powder I load my 45 rounds with is unique, might switch to CBI cause I have to do something with it.

 

In 9mm it's running like hp38. In 45AARP I think it's acting more like AA5 or maybe even PowerPistol, but I need to do some more testing to be sure.

I have pretty much settled on 5.5gr under a 115gr jacked bullet. 5 to 5.5 is kind of the range, but 5.5 kicks out plus pee velocity.

 

Other than Knob Creek, what are some sources for these powders? I had no idea they were available.

jim

 

I bought my cbi from cdvs dot us. It was less than $250 total, shipped, for 16lb.

 

Hey you guys that CBI powder is back in stock at cdvs dot us, but they raised their price $20 to $30 on 16lb. At least they have it in stock.

I did some more testing and my go to powder for standard 115gr 9mm is now going to be CBI.
It will also be my go to powder for 38spl+P.
It uses less powder than unique, is half the price and is more consistent.
But unique still appears to be superior in 45acp with 230gr bullets.