Can you trust the Fed Govt.?

Discussion in 'Freedom and Liberty' started by Minuteman, Dec 29, 2015.


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  1. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    Just ask an Indian.

    A LITTLE BIT OF HISTORY TO THINK ABOUT.......December 29, 2015 marks the 125th Anniversary of the murder of 297 Sioux Indians at Wounded Knee Creek on the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation in South Dakota. These 297 people, in their winter camp, were murdered by federal agents and members of the 7th Cavalry who had come to confiscate their firearms “for their own safety and protection”. The slaughter began after the majority of the Sioux had peacefully turned in their firearms. The Calvary began shooting, and managed to wipe out the entire camp. 200 of the 297 victims were women and children. About 40 members of the 7th Cavalry were killed, but over half of them were victims of "friendly fire" from the Hotchkiss guns of their overzealous comrades-in-arms.

    TWENTY members of the 7th Cavalry's death squad, were deemed “National Heroes” and were awarded the Medal of Honor for their acts of [cowardice] heroism.

    We hear very little of Wounded Knee today. It is usually not mentioned in our history classes or books. What little that does exist about Wounded Knee is normally a sanitized “Official Government Explanation”. And there are several historically inaccurate depictions of the events leading up to the massacre, which appear in movie scripts and are not the least bit representative of the actual events that took place that day.

    Wounded Knee was among the first federally backed gun confiscation attempts in United States history. It ended in the senseless murder of 297 people.

    Before you jump on the emotionally charged bandwagon for gun-control, take a moment to reflect on the real purpose of the Second Amendment, the right of the people to take up arms in defense of themselves, their families, and property in the face of invading armies or an oppressive government. The argument that the Second Amendment only applies to hunting and target shooting is asinine. When the United States Constitution was drafted, “hunting” was an everyday chore carried out by men and women to put meat on the table each night, and “target shooting” was an unheard of concept. Musket balls were a precious commodity and were certainly not wasted on “target shooting”. The Second Amendment was written by people who fled oppressive and tyrannical regimes in Europe, and it refers to the right of American citizens to be armed for defensive purposes, should such tyranny arise in the United States.

    As time goes forward, the average citizen in the United States continually loses little chunks of personal freedom or “liberty”. Far too many times, unjust gun control bills were passed and signed into law under the guise of “for your safety” or “for protection”. The Patriot Act signed into law by G.W. Bush, was expanded and continues under Barack Obama. It is just one of many examples of American citizens being stripped of their rights and privacy for “safety”. Now, the Right to Keep and Bear Arms is on the table, and will, most likely be attacked to facilitate the path for the removal of our firearms, all in the name of “our safety”.

    Before any American citizen blindly accepts whatever new firearms legislation that is about to be doled out, they should stop and think about something for just one minute-
    Evil does exist in our world. It always has and always will. Throughout history evil people have committed evil acts. In the Bible one of the first stories is that of Cain killing Abel. We can not legislate “evil” into extinction. Good people will abide by the law, and the criminal element will always find a way around it.

    Evil exists all around us, but looking back at the historical record of the past 200 years, across the globe, where is “evil” and “malevolence” most often found? In the hands of those with the power, the governments. That greatest human tragedies on record and the largest loss of innocent human life can be attributed to governments. Who do the governments always target? “Scapegoats” and “enemies” within their own borders…but only after they have been disarmed to the point where they are no longer a threat. Ask any Native American, and they will tell you it was inferior technology and lack of arms that contributed to their demise. Ask any Armenian why it was so easy for the Turks to exterminate millions of them, and they will answer “We were disarmed before it happened”. Ask any Jew what Hitler’s first step prior to the mass murders of the Holocaust was- confiscation of firearms from the people.

    Wounded Knee is the prime example of why the Second Amendment exists, and why we should vehemently resist any attempts to infringe on our Rights to Bear Arms. Without the Second Amendment we will be totally stripped of any ability to defend ourselves and our families.

    John Magda
    .
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2015
  2. Dunerunner

    Dunerunner Monkey

    "Those who do not study history are condemned to repeat it.", George Santayana
     
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  3. Legion489

    Legion489 Shining the Light of Truth

    "Minuteman: A LITTLE BIT OF HISTORY TO THINK ABOUT.......December 29, 2015 marks the 125th Anniversary of the murder of 297 Sioux Indians at Wounded Knee Creek on the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation in South Dakota. These 297 people, in their winter camp, were murdered by federal agents and members of the 7th Cavalry who had come to confiscate their firearms “for their own safety and protection”. The slaughter began after the majority of the Sioux had peacefully turned in their firearms. The Calvary began shooting, and managed to wipe out the entire camp. 200 of the 297 victims were women and children. About 40 members of the 7th Cavalry were killed, but over half of them were victims of "friendly fire" from the Hotchkiss guns of their overzealous comrades-in-arms."

    WACO: The Feds had come to confiscate their firearms "for their own safety and protection”. The slaughter began after the majority of the (Church) members had peacefully turned in their firearms. The local Sheriff had been out, repeatedly, and found nothing illegal or immoral and all guns were legal.

    90 (?) of the 98 victims were women and children. Those they could find and/or identify as to age.

    Several attackers (ALL were Secret Service agents who had been on Slick Willy's first prez run) were killed, but ALL of them were victims of "friendly fire" from the BATF guns of their overzealous comrades-in-arms. Which means machinegunned in the back with tungsten cored (BATF ONLY) bullets." Slick left NO ONE who knew anything about him alive! Look at Seal Team Six.

    Seal Team Six (now all dead. Hmmmm...) was flying overhead machinegunning anyone who tried to get out of the burning building (set on fire by the BATF and pumped full of poison gas). Anyone who did get out was thrown back in.

    All of the above can be checked with the CONgressional investigation and is true.

    Ruby Ridge: Unarmed Mother shot in head by sniper while holding baby in her arms during a gov't offered cease fire. Bunker turned out to be 1/2" plywood. In court the "informer" admitted HE cut the shotgun barrel to less than 18", NOT Randy.

    No need to go back 125 years, examples are all over from the last 20 years and newer.
     
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  4. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    Legion, I appreciate your zeal but zeal without facts does more harm than good.

    "WACO: The Feds had come to confiscate their firearms "for their own safety and protection”. The slaughter began after the majority of the (Church) members had peacefully turned in their firearms. The local Sheriff had been out, repeatedly, and found nothing illegal or immoral and all guns were legal.
    90 (?) of the 98 victims were women and children. Those they could find and/or identify as to age."


    They came to serve an arrest warrant for David Koresh for child abuse and drug charges. The ATF was called in due to the knowledge that the group possessed a large number of guns. The original Warrant contained the drug charge which gave the feds the excuse to use military assistance. No one surrendered any firearms and the local sheriff had been called out to investigate child abuse charges, filed by the ex husband of one of the members, and found no evidence.
    There were 6 Davidians killed in the original assault and 76 ,including Koresh, killed in the fire. 22 of those were under 17 yrs old.

    "Several attackers (ALL were Secret Service agents who had been on Slick Willy's first prez run) were killed, but ALL of them were victims of "friendly fire" from the BATF guns of their overzealous comrades-in-arms. Which means machinegunned in the back with tungsten cored (BATF ONLY) bullets." Slick left NO ONE who knew anything about him alive! Look at Seal Team Six."

    Four agents were killed in the original assault. All of them by the Davidians. But only AFTER they opened fire on them first. A court in Texas found all of them not guilty of murder due to acting in self defense. The agents fired until they were out of ammo and pinned down. At which time the Davidians allowed them to gather their dead and wounded and leave.

    Seal Team 6 was not there. But it was confirmed that the agents had trained at Ft Hood with Delta force prior to the raid. Using the drug pretense to justify it. There were Delta Force advisers there but there has never been any proof that they were involved in the attack.
    The BATF sniper that murdered Randy Weaver's wife (Ron Horiuchi) was proven to be there and yes there were numerous reports of people fleeing the flames being fired upon.

    As for Randy Weaver, he did saw off the barrel of the shotgun but knowing the law he cut it off at 18 1/4", but unknown to him the butt stock had been sawed off (not uncommon for a youth gun) which with the 18 1/4" barrel made the gun's overall length less than the legal limit ( I don't recall, I think 26" or 28"). That is what they charged him with.

    Like I said I appreciate your passion but when facts are exaggerated or made up it only weakens the truth and turns everything into conspiracy theory.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2015
  5. Motomom34

    Motomom34 Moderator Moderator Site Supporter++

    I have read quite a bit about R. Weaver but never heard this one. Interesting because he thought he was still within the law but overall he wasn't. That is definitely a technicality. He failed to measure on a whole. Good example of people focusing on the task but failing to look at the whole picture.
     
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  6. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    The overall length of the gun was 3/4" under what the law says is legal. He lost his wife and son over that. Well, he lost them because he told the feds to go take a flying leap when they tried to coerce him into being a snitch for them. I have met him several times and the thing that I always remember is the haunted look in his eyes.
     
  7. duane

    duane Monkey++

    My grandfather was born in 1873, son of a civil war veteran, a German immigrant, who married a Lakota woman in Minnesota. He was with the Minnesota unit that was nearly wiped out at Gettsyberg and the only story that was handed down to me from his several years experience in the civil war was "Never trust an Officer, their best interests and yours don't often agree." At the present time and with the present regime, I think the word officer can be replaced by government. Somehow the good of the community, paying $2 million for a new police station for 6 officers or $20 million for a new school at the local small town level, or a few hundred billion a year for airplanes that don't fly or an endless war somewhere, is more important than my ability to pay my property taxes or earn a decent interest on my retirement savings.
    We can talk about Weaver or Koresh and whatever we say, it is abstract, when my right to own firearms, or my tax bill, or watching the present bunch of fools running for president, or cashing my retirement savings check, it is personal and I for one no longer trust any level of government and am suffering from a thousand small cuts, not one massive wound, and rapidly feeling like I am bleeding to death.
    The Woodpile Report has a letter from a person from Australia who explains how they lost their guns and gives a good foretaste of how we will lose ours. They will not be pried from your cold dead hands, they will chip away and delay and brainwash your neighbors and children and slowly they will disappear. Like Mass with a headline story of a massive cache of 7 guns and thousands of rounds of ammo. True enough, but most gun owners would think that a couple double barreled shotgun. a pump shotgun, 250 rounds of skeet shells, 3 22 rifles and 2000 rounds of 22, a 30-30 rifle with 50 rounds is not a threat to anyone, but the majority of the sheeple that read the Boston Globe will feel safer now that they no longer have to worry about that crazy survivalist. I live in NH and there are areas of Mass that I no longer feel safe in even in the day and I no longer shop at. Yet the TV and NPR somehow blame in on disrespect and that black lives matter and that somehow "they" don't have to obey societies rule and customs. That is the part of the government and society I am afraid of.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2015
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  8. Legion489

    Legion489 Shining the Light of Truth

    Let's not forget that Soc. Security has not increased three times under Obummer, yet everything I want to buy costs more. Looked at drug prices lately?!

    Sorry, when facts are deigned, twisted to make a point or whatever, THAT turns it into a conspiracy theory. A simple look at the official Congressional Records and Hearings will prove what I say about Waco, and that it is not a conspiracy theory, unless you want to say that the Hearings themselves were a sham to cover up gross gov't misconduct (look at the JFK Hearings and what happened to every person on the panel after it was done and all the questions that were never asked or remained uninvestigated. Talk about conspiracy!) and THAT I would agree with! However, after reading the OFFICIAL Gov't Hearings and trial transcripts, if you have a problem with what I said about Waco or Ruby Ridge, I will be happy to discuss it.

    For additional "conspiracy theories", just look at the Fort Smith Sedition trial with Pastor BOB Miles. The court records make HIGHLY interesting reading too. BOB, an elderly WWII vet (he went to France and joined the French Underground because he was too young to enlist at the time, which he did later) who had breathing and walking problems, was in body irons and the FBI thugs lost BOB in the airport when BOB collapsed, because they were so busy pushing people out of their way and acting like gov't thugs that they couldn't even keep track of the prisoner! The judge asked the two FBI thugs how old they were, if they were in good shape and if they expected a WWII vet, who couldn't even breath or walk, to out fight them or outrun them. When they said no, the judge then ordered them to take the body irons off BOB and apologized to BOB. The "star" witness who claimed he lived with BOB and "was like his (BOB's) son" couldn't even point BOB out of the TWO White men there (there were six people on trial, 2 Whites, both Pastors, two negros, 2 Amer Indians) and one of the gov't thugs finally jumped up and pointed at BOB and screamed "It's him you ass! HE'S the one!" After that the Judge stopped the trial and demanded the gov't produce ANY evidence of ANYTHING, and when the gov't admitted they had NOTHING, the judge cleared the innocent victims of gov't thuggery of all charges and freed them. BOB then "committed suicide" in the shower at home by breaking both hands (smashed to a pulp according to the autopsy report) and THEN beating himself to death with a baseball bat while standing in a small shower stall, including breaking both legs. Please read the official transcripts and records before telling me I am wrong or it is a "theory".

    Gordon Kaul who "committed suicide" by fighting it out with the feds and then setting the house on fire and dying in the fire. The only problem with that was the coroner found his feet and been wired together, he was brutally beaten and his hands had been wired together and cut off BEFORE he died and were found kicked under the fridge. Again this is all official gov't records and can be checked, not a "theory". Again, read the OFFICIAL autopsy reports and records before saying I am wrong.

    I appreciate your attempting to clear up any mistakes I may have made, but PLEASE, read the OFFICIAL REPORTS AND HEARINGS before attempting to do so. It doesn't do anyone any good to say "you are wrong!'' and then have the official records checked and have it shown that the person was right all along.
     
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  9. kellory

    kellory An unemployed Jester, is nobody's fool. Banned

    Any links to these reports? It would make interesting reading at the least.
     
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  10. Legion489

    Legion489 Shining the Light of Truth

    As I always say here, just google it. I (some where) have some of this in print, but just where is known only to God at this point. However all of it should be easily found by using google or other search engine (yahoo, dog pile, etc). If you truly can not find it, or can't be bothered to look, just call up or go to your local library and ask the info desk to look it up or they might well have it in hard copy. Yes the transcripts can be dry as dust and boring as watching paint dry, but when you read the official (or what passes for official and/or truth with the Feds, look at Roswell and the 16 times the "official" version of what happened changed. Or the OKC blast when the BATF testified to CONgress they were 100 miles away playing golf until a photo of them turned up while trash was still falling out of the sky) you will have a better (or as good as it will get with out the conspiracy nutz getting involved, and isn't it amazing how often they are right!) idea of what happened. At this point we have what they (Klinton/Reno/etc) admitted to in front of CONgress and what the sheeple were allowed to know/hear.
     
  11. Legion489

    Legion489 Shining the Light of Truth

    Well that was interesting, as soon as I hit POST REPLY on the above, the computer crashed and I had to reboot. Now if I was a conspiracy nut...
     
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  12. Kingfish

    Kingfish Self Reliant

    There was a van on the way to Randy weavers aid. In it were 6 Michigan men . Two were friends of mine. They were about halfway there when it ended. One guy's wife left him when he packed his rifle and ammo , and some clothes . I was buying a gun that day when they left the sporting goods store. I had a young son and wife at the time . These guys were all just a few years older than me. I was asked if I wanted to go. I didnt have a real rifle at the time. Just the Ruger 10-22 I was buying that day. They had just crossed into to Minnesota when they heard on the radio that it was over. They turned around and came home. Even then there were men ready to come to the aid of fellow patriots. After it was all over I read and re read the trial transcripts and the story over and over again. I read it until my blood boiled. People like the Clintons are Maggots who are destroying liberty. Janet Reno should be in Prison in steel shackles. Chained to cold concrete floor with rats and pestilence as her company. I would chain her next to the Clintons.

    As for the question??? Can I trust the Federal Government?? No, not now not ever.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 31, 2015
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  13. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    This is one of the finest documentaries made on it. It contains many clips of C-Span coverage of the hearings. It contains facts not fantasy. The truth of this event is horrendous enough as it is. The federal govt waged war on a church and murdered everyone inside. There's no need and it serves no purpose to muddy the waters with Seal Team Six, agents killed by their own, black helicopters etc.
    I went to Mt. Carmel a few years after it happened. It was a very somber experience walking around the grounds where this took place. Reading the markers honoring all who died there. Even the federal agents, which I thought was a very magnanimous and Christian gesture. I had the opportunity to meet Clive Doyle who still lives on the site and manages the museum there. It was chilling to hear the story from someone who actually lived through it. I asked him about people being shot when exiting the building and he said he really couldn't remember anything certain. He was panicked and trying to escape the inferno. A sad day in US history.
     
  14. Alpha Dog

    Alpha Dog survival of the breed

    HE!! NO THE GOVERMENT CANT EVEN TRUST THE GOVERMENT..
     
  15. Legion489

    Legion489 Shining the Light of Truth

    "WACO: Rules of Engagement" might be a fine bit of theater, probably is, but I still say go look at what was ADMITTED TO in the Congressional Hearings for, as Paul Harvey would say "the rest of the story" where Klinton and Reno (and if you said either or both of them wouldn't know the truth if it came up and bit them in the ass, I would fully agree. Of course that all depends on what the meaning of "is" is.) stated Seal Team 6 WAS there, they did machinegun people fleeing and the rest.

    Of course the murder and show of military might at Waco was NOT to be done in secret, it was to be an example and show of force to the sheeple about what will happen if they get out of line (as was Ruby Ridge - and look at all the lies the gov't told about that, which was to be secret) and you can't make omelets with out murdering some innocent people and then lieing about it. Once again, go read the CONgressional Record, THEN point out where I was wrong and we can talk. If no one wants to go look at the definitive study on it, or the official records, watch the footage as it was being filmed and follow the chain of evidence against the gov't, I don't see how a conspiracy nut (as I was accused of) show is going to be any better.

    Admittedly, to be fair, the World Trade Center and the other planes were gov't planned shows and whitewashes from the get go. Yes I have a small amount of knowledge of construction (I have had an unfortunately wide field of experience doing lots of things) and watching the Tower go down I was going "SOMEONE either set it up to fall down or it was going to fall down on it's own soon!" Also ALL the gold stored there was gone and certain groups were conspicuous by their absence. Oh yes, no moslems were filmed by all three networks dancing in the street, you know what a lier Trump is. Oh, wait, he WAS right about that, after the lamestream network(s) said he lied and were forced to admit the moslems actually did dance in the streets! What a surprise! In Beirut they ALWAYS blew the first couple top floors (as yes, planes could and did fly into some, which did NOT collapse!) to provide a bomb proof ceiling and they were shelled daily, even having most of the lower floors blown out and yet they seldom fell down on their own.

    I will also state the OKC bombing report was a total fabrication. A LOW speed (fertilizer) bomb a couple hundred feet away blew up a modern reinforced building while the building 12 feet away that was already falling down only had a couple windows damaged?! Then of course the BATF testified in CONgress they were 100 miles away playing golf until a photographer showed up with a photo of the BATF "golfers" AT THE OKC SITE while rocks were still coming down.

    The difference between the three cases? The gov't got caught red handed in the first, with the whole thing being filmed by too many people, and the scum were proud of what they did, and wanted to admit it openly, but then they learned what to do and the other two were pure whitewash and nothing fits with the facts (much like JFK) or is possible in the real world and no one admitted any thing either.
     
  16. BTPost

    BTPost Old Fart Snow Monkey Moderator

    I, for one, have Ton of Experience in Energetic Material Science, and lets get some REAL Facts into the OKC Issue you raised above.... It was a Ryder Rental Truck holding, in excess, of 4800 Pounds of an Ammonium Nitrate/Fuel Oil/NitroMethane... The NitroMethane was added to make the ANFO, Cap Sensitive, so they wouldn't have to have a PETN Booster.... ANFO is NOT Cap Sensitive...(A Blasting Agent) and Detonates at 3200'/Sec.... This is NOT a "Low speed" Energetic, as it Detonates, (Faster than the Speed of sound, in the material) rather than just Burn Fast, like Black Powder ....(Slower than the speed of sound in the Material) The Blast Crater was 30' wide and 8' Deep.... That is NOT a SMALL Blast Crater, from a "Low speed" Energetic.... There are 1000# Bombs, that make smaller Craters, than that.... and this detonation was Recorded on local Seismographs at just above 3.0 on the Richter Sale.....
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2015
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  17. ghrit

    ghrit Ambulatory anachronism Administrator Founding Member

    @Legion489
    In other words, it appears you are talking out your hat. Might be a good idea to do some fact checking before posting what really is rumor and tin foil hat material. Whether the MSM has or had it right, the science is spot on, as is the engineering. Whether the MSM or the conspiricy theorists got it right, only time will tell. In the meantime, do your preparing as you see fit.
     
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  18. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    Umm. Clinton never testified before the senate hearings on Waco and no one ever said that Seal Team six were machine gunning people from helicopters as they were fleeing the fire. I don't know what "source" you think you're citing but it is totally BS. Sounds like you are parroting what you heard/read/was told was in the transcripts from the hearings. The hearings were aired on C-Span and the vid I linked to has many clips of the most relevant statements made. By the way, that particular bit of "theater" was nominated for an academy award. It was made by an independent filmmaker from the UK and is widely regarded as a very unbiased look at the facts. Facts, not someone said, I read somewhere, conspiracy theory crap. Spreading that kind of nonsense only serves to undermine any serious discussions on the subjects.
     
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  19. BTPost

    BTPost Old Fart Snow Monkey Moderator

    I would also point out that SEAL TEAM SIX, wasn't even that Teams designation, (Designation SEAL TEAM SIX was dropped in 1987) during the Clinton Administration... ( Which started in 1991)
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2016
  20. Kingfish

    Kingfish Self Reliant

    The first film I saw on waco was a vhs tape that was being circulated by Alex Jones called the Big Lie. I will never forget the barrel of that flame thrower dripping burning liquid as it backed away from the building. They said it was tear gas. Looked like burning fuel of some kind to me. That footage has been eradicated from many websites over the years. m going to see if I can find it.
     
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