Catalonia Fight for Independence

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Motomom34, Oct 1, 2017.


  1. Motomom34

    Motomom34 Monkey+++

    Not sure if any of you have been paying attention to what is happening in Catalonia Spain. The people there are holding a vote, an independence referrendum. The issue was brought to many Americans attention when Prez Trump mentioned he stood behind the Spanish government. The referendum vote was/is being held October 1. So far over 300 people have been injured from police trying to stop the vote.

    I think this is very important that people watch and follow. Please note the Scottish voted on a similar referendum but the people of Scotland voted to stay as part of the UK. The Scots went to the polls and cast their votes. But today in Spain we are witnessing something horribly different.

    Neither man, woman or dogs are safe from the police. Please watch this video:
    Internet outage halts voting in Catalonia independence referendum

    What the world is seeing is horrifying. Spain is determined to stop this vote. Currently the internet is off in another attempt to stop this vote.

    Why is this important? This referendum vote is illegal under Spain's constitution.
    View: Allowing Catalonia referendum to play out is not an option

    Could this happen here? As people get more and more tired of government controlling their lives, the more they push back at TPTB, the government ramps up to keep its control. People say they are willing to die for their freedom but look at Catalonia today. This is what happens when people seek their independence. Why are people being beaten in the streets? If the vote is illegal then let them vote and say it is illegal. Why has it come to this?
     
  2. UncleMorgan

    UncleMorgan I eat vegetables. My friends are not vegetables.

    The rulers know that if the people vote, they will learn that, as a people, they desire independence.
    Then they will stand united and secede.
    And then the rulers will have a full-scale revolt to deal with.
    And, of course, if they lose they will lose power--and that can't be allowed to happen.
     
  3. OldDude49

    OldDude49 Just n old guy

    ya been watchin it... don't look good for the cat's
     
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  4. DKR

    DKR Interesting ideas, interesting stories

    Where-
    Catalonia comprises most of the territory of the former Principality of Catalonia (with the remainder Roussillon now part of France's Pyrénées-Orientales). It is bordered by France and Andorra to the north, the Mediterranean Sea to the east, and the Spanish autonomous communities of Aragon to the west and Valencia to the south. The official languages are Catalan, Spanish, and the Aranese dialect of Occitan.

    [​IMG]

    Why?
    "For me it's above everything for our right to have our own culture, and not to be absorbed by Spain,” he said. “This is what they are doing for the last years."

    Taxes are also a very real issue.

    How will it turn out?
    When the US went thru this, 100 of thousands died. This has been a long bubbling issue that has boiled over into violence more than once. In today's "modern" world, nobody is allowed to break away from the Mother County - any attempt is normally met by guns or tanks....

    See also
    Biafra
    Eritrea
    Western Kansas (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2013-10-15/why-are-so-many-counties-trying-to-secede-from-their-states)

    and Northern Colorado (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/06/06/rural-colorado-counties-pursue-split/2398387/)

     
  5. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    To make the actual location a bit clear. I was WAY off at my first guess.

    [​IMG]
    In a way, I sympathize with the Catalonians. The Spanish central gov't has never looked fondly on Catalonia except for revenue. This particular political conflict has been going on since the Catalonian revolution c.1640.
    Gotta wonder how well the US federal gov would actually respond to cali wanting out.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2017
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  6. tacmotusn

    tacmotusn Mosquito Sailor Site Supporter+

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  7. Motomom34

    Motomom34 Monkey+++

    Results by the Catalan government, 2.264M votes (missing 400 poll stations) YES - 90% NO - 7.8% NULL - 2.2% not all the polls are in but the people are rejecting Spain and wanting their own country. Will it happen? I do not know.

    I believe this is very true. People trying to get to the polls were met with rubber bullets and beaten with police batons. That type of force was just to discourage people from voting. How far will Spain go?

    The local firemen stepped in to protect the voters.
    DLEWXvhX0AEk168.

    Here is a voter trying to get to the polls
    DLE-EReXUAEEl4z. large.

    Remember these images because if our country does not find unity, this could be America.
     
  8. Tully Mars

    Tully Mars Metal weldin' monkey

    Vive la révolution

    I wish them the best!
    The thought of states seceding from the union bothers me a great deal. I do not wish to see this country torn apart. That being said, I not only support the state's right to do so, I feel the time is drawing closer the more we are put under the boot of the fedgov.

    Pull up some pictures of what the Black Panther Party did to white voters during Berry Hussein's last election. It already is America..
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 1, 2017
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  9. DKR

    DKR Interesting ideas, interesting stories

    To be fair, that part of Spain is pretty hard LEFT, as in Communist/Socialist. Big center of Resistance to Franco.
     
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  10. Oltymer

    Oltymer Monkey++

    Spain can't take the revenue hit and will roll in armor if that's what it takes. The EU is behind Spain, but not over revenue as Catalonia would still have to send them their dues, they are more concerned with the growing peasant revolts against EU governments. The leaders of Catalonia are probably in it for a bigger share of the revenue they would have as a separate government. The heavy handed head bashing, woman throwing, rubber bullet shooting, and hair dragging by the Civil Guardia has only congealed determination by Catalonians to depart from Spain, so tighten your seatbelt and get ready for a real bloodbath like the Spanish Civil War in pre-WWII times. Just my take, not to offend anybody. What chills me is how the SCW was a pre-cursor to WWII, and a place where the then powers were able to field test new weapons that would be refined just in time for the bloodletting of WWII. History doesn't exactly repeat itself, but it usually rhymes.
     
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  11. Bandit99

    Bandit99 Monkey+++ Site Supporter+

    Yes, "History doesn't repeat itself but it often rhymes"(Mark Twain)...the last Spanish Civil War started in July 1936 and ended about 3 years later in April 1939 then 3 years later WW2 started.... Let's hope it doesn't rhyme.

    Personally, I have done a complete 180 degrees since I returned home so... I would vote to secede from this foul union in a heartbeat. I am sick to death of this country being torn apart by factions from within so that it is nothing but a lie of what America was so tear it apart and be done with it, it's been dead a good long while anyway so start over but...I bet when it does comes apart so will the rest of the world.
     
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  12. Legion489

    Legion489 Rev. 2:19 Banned

    Yeah well, first they don't have a Constitutional right to pull out of Spain, so no matter what happens, the vote is not legally binding. Sort of like what Commiefornia does all the time.

    Second, these are communists and socialists, again like Commiefornia is for about 50-100 miles in from the left coast. If they are allowed to pull out of Spain they will be a pain in the rear of Spain and everyone one else (think Cuba being part of Florida, although getting cigars easier would be good).

    As I recall, that DID happen here. Lincoln suspended the Constitution, threw newspapermen who disagreed with him in prison, suspended habeas corpus, and burned most of the Southern states down for trying to us their Constitutional Right to leave the Union. So why should Spain be any different?
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2017
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  13. Motomom34

    Motomom34 Monkey+++

    And that is the issue. The people have spoke, they want out. There position on the map is too valuable. And after yesterdays violence, more people have woken up and started to think. I wonder if the officials will be choking off supplies or if they will step up the violence.
     
  14. Bandit99

    Bandit99 Monkey+++ Site Supporter+

    The question is how do you force people to be part of something they do not want to be? The tighter they hold them the harder they will pull away and the more hate and discontent will be generated which drives them farther away. You can't force someone to love you and want to stay. The only way is to conquer them to the point of exhaustion that they know it is hopeless. This is what happened to the South. Lincoln through the rule book away and made war not only on the South's military but on its land and people, terrorizing with rape, murder, larceny and fire to bring them to their knees, to the point they knew it was hopeless. EDIT: Perhaps the term 'unconditional surrender' taken literarily is the best way to describe it.

    What is different about this from most other protests, like Tiananmen Square, is the people are not asking for a change in government or its policies; they are asking to leave. And, frankly, if you think about it, do not people have a right to govern themselves and how they will be governed? ...especially if the current governing body is corrupt and self-serving. Constitution be damn!
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2017
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  15. Motomom34

    Motomom34 Monkey+++

    Catalonia Declares Independence as Spanish Government Moves to Seize Control of Region

    This is the headline today. Catalans are nervous because the government is ready to dismiss the peoples wishes and seize the area. The phrases rein in the rebels, use of force and martial law have been used by the Spanish law makers as they try to figure out how to stop Catalonia from independence. If Spain tries to take the region, it will be a battle.

    Catalonia declares independence from Spain, direct Madrid rule looms

    Freedom is never free. Europe is watching because they fear other regions will try to declare independence.
     
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  16. DKR

    DKR Interesting ideas, interesting stories

    The Bascos have been itch'n to boogie for a couple of decades.

    Barcelona is the third most powerful 'city' economy in the EU. Barcelona is the country's second largest city after Madrid. It is also Spain's biggest region in terms of economic output. The region makes up 20% of Spain's GDP.

    Barcelona makes the dough, Madrid gets the bling. And the saga continues - only this time withOUT guns provided by the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany.

    The Soviet Union were the main suppliers of military aid to the Republican Army. This included 1,000 aircraft, 900 tanks, 1,500 artillery pieces, 300 armoured cars, 15,000 machine-guns, 30,000 automatic firearms, 30,000 mortars, 500,000 riles and 30,000 tons of ammunition.

    The Soviets expected the Republicans to pay for these military supplies in gold. On the outbreak of the war Spain had the world's fourth largest reserves of gold. During the war approximately $500 million, or two-thirds of Spain's gold reserves, were shipped to the Soviet Union.

    The war has often been portrayed as a struggle between democracy and fascism, particularly due to the political climate and timing surrounding it, but it can be more accurately be described as a struggle between leftist revolution and rightist counter-revolution. Ultimately, the Nationalists won, and Franco then ruled Spain for the next 36 years, from April 1939 until his death in November 1975. Barcalona was the center of Republican power at the time.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2017
  17. Downunder

    Downunder Monkey

    I suppose if votes are met with bullets then you resort to IED's.
     
  18. Seawolf1090

    Seawolf1090 Retired Curmudgeonly IT Monkey Founding Member

    WWII began in Europe in 1939, not 1942. America entered in Dec. 1941.
     
  19. Bandit99

    Bandit99 Monkey+++ Site Supporter+

    Yes, yes, yes, I meant ~3 years later from the Spanish Civil War in 1936... 1 Sept 1939 Hitler invaded Poland which caused the English and French to enter the war against Germany. Stalin invaded Poland about 2 weeks later but England and France did not declare war on the Soviet Union basically because they were not obliged to so under the treaty and frankly didn't care what happened in the East. Poland fell in about a month. The Germans invaded France, Luxemburg, Belgium and the Netherlands in May 1940 by driving through the Ardennes forest with armor and cutting off the allied forces, resulting in Dunkirk for the Brits where Hitler made his first big mistake by stopping the destruction the British army - the entire thing was wrapped up in about a month and a half. Battle of Britain followed...blah, blah, blah... Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor (7 December 41) due to American lead embargo (IIRC they had only about 6 months worth of fuel left)...among other things and, finally, Hitler declared war on the United States (saving Roosevelt a hell'va lot of work to try and convince the American public to side with England and France) four days later which was his third big mistake, his second being invading the Soviet Union in June 1941 even though there are some reports, historians and even a Soviet defector that stated Stalin was planning to invade Germany while they were engaged in the West (preemptive strike?). The turning point in the East Front was the Battle of Stalingrad (Aug 1942-Feb 1943) resulting in the German 6th Army being cutoff and captured, it was downhill from there in the East for the Germans. The Americans, Brits and Canadians had landings in North Africa, Sicily, and Italy which destroyed any Axis attempt to obtain the Suez Canal and achieved knocking Italy out of the war. However, the turning point in the West was 6 June 1944 when American, Canadian and British forces invaded the Normandy coast in France while the Soviets also opened a huge major attack two weeks later with the result being in ~11 months Hitler committing suicide in his Berlin bunker (April 1945) while the Soviets busted through the last of Berlin's defenses ending the war in Europe 8 May 1945. The Pacific war's end was achieved by 'island hopping', which continues to be controversial, ending by dropping atomic bombs on Hiroshima (6 Aug 1945) and Nagasaki (9 Aug 1945) and officially ending WW2 on 2 September 1945

    And, that was the gist of it...what did I forget? Do I get a grade? :)
    EDIT: I really think I deserve an 'A+' :) as all was done from memory except I couldn't remember if the A-bomb was first drop 6 August or 16 August...:)
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2017
  20. DKR

    DKR Interesting ideas, interesting stories

    Spain's top prosecutor called for charges against sacked Catalan president Carles Puigdemont and other separatist leaders on Monday as Barcelona capitulated to Madrid. Mr Puigdemont and former speaker Carme Forcadell were ordered to hand themselves over to police on charges of rebellion, sedition and embezzlement as Mr Puigdemont's bail was set at 6million Euros (£5.3million).

    Another twist to the story.
     
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    Thread

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    Thread by: GrayGhost, Jan 27, 2016, 43 replies, in forum: Freedom and Liberty
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