cheap backpacker protection....

Discussion in 'Firearms' started by Tango3, Jan 17, 2007.


  1. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    • Starting to think a good choice for woods wandering around here might bea 12 or20 ga. nef single shot. Use slug or buckshot for big animal protection 4's, 6,'s for snackpak critters, maybe cut it off at 18" or whatevers' legal.
    • Its cheap (round $100 nib) less in pawnshops everywhere.
    • light
    • simple
    • long gun so not as eye raising to leos..
    • 12ga slug has got plenty of snot...
    • Other similar opinions found by google: http://survival.com/IVB/index.php?showtopic=9218&st=0g
    I understand a few folks here keedp em for "truck guns"... You aren't gonna stop advancing infantry;but Long guns seem to generate less ire among the libs than handguns.(?)
     
  2. Blackjack

    Blackjack Monkey+++

    Ya know Tango, I've never been much of a fan of singles other than the price. I hunt with a double that I adore, but I wouldn't make it my choice after tshtf. For abut $150 you can pick up a decent used pump. Heck, new ones are only about 325 I think.

    Get one with a short barrel already, I understand cutting off the end does horrible things to the pellet pattern. Add a magazine extension and you've got a serious tool for puttin food on the table or driving away the "Mongorians".

    For shot I like:
    8 for clays
    7.5 for doves and quail
    6 for rabbit
    6 or 5 for pheasant
    4 for squirrel (some would say this is a bit large but I like 'em)
    A slug does a number on deer (or thugs I would think)

    I don't keep buckshot around, my "black rifle" is for invading hordes, but most swear by 4buck or 00buck. I think I'd opt for the heavier 00.
     
  3. Blackjack

    Blackjack Monkey+++

    Almost forgot:

    #2 Bismuth (non-tox) in 1&5/8 oz (3" mag) is frikin lethal on ducks and even the largest canada geese. They're expensive though ($2 ea), and in post SHTF you wouldn't really be worried much about staying legal with the non toxic shot, so cheaper #2 mag loadings of lead would be just as good.
     
  4. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    Thanks guy, I like dbls too. And I'vealready got an 870 express w a 28" (?)for SHTF, Everytime I find a 20" or shorter barrel they want 185$ for it...I just wouldn't grab it to go play in the woods.(it's overkill)...
     
  5. BigO01

    BigO01 Monkey+++ Founding Member

    Not a fan of a single shot anything even if it were a first gun , only exception would be if I didn't own a weapon and needed one NOW and only had a hundred bucks .

    Fortunately I don't have that problem , for woods wandering a 357 revolver is my bestest friend , if I lived in Bear country I would upgrade to a 44 maggie .

    Most cops "foolishly" don't see the old revolver as much of a threat if it is legal to have it , good thing I live in a state where I can hunt Coyotes year round by simply carrying a $10 small game license , so the pat answer is "yes Sir I am hunting" .

    If a long gun was desired the market has many carbines available , a shotgun well you can have a nice Mossberg pump with an 18 inch barrel for around $200 , I think if you ever needed it you would find you need more then one shot .

    It would be worth saving up that extra $100 to get a pump to me .
     
  6. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer


    Please don't take offense at this; it is an old rant that surfaces in my brain occasionally and I would like to toss it out to provoke thought, not ire.
    The folowing is admittedly an armchair rant:

    [rnt]
    Lets talk about REAL numbers, Whole numbers, integers specifically "0"

    ZERO, isthe number of times I have discharged a weapon toward a predator 2 or 4 legged..( including 8 years military military law enforcement/CI investigations.)

    Zero is the number of bears I've seen to target, (I think at least one has seen me, but i couldn't see him in the dark woods.)

    Zero, is usually the number of people I meet on the trails I hike...occsionally I have heard and seen an atv I usually just step into the woods a bit,
    I don't snoop and poop, just keep a low profile.

    Zero is the number of slasher movies I watch before going out.

    I'm not saying violent crime doesn't happen, but in my ( sheltered?/lucky? reality) I don't have any true stories.

    Zero is the number of weeks I would survive in state prison, its also the number of days I could keep a secret of a body stashed under a log somewhere on my conscience.

    zero is the number of firefights I've been in.

    Whenever I've felt a nonspecific anxiety in the woods (with "no specific threat") because I was without a firearm , I 've looked at it as a weakness in my character( that I "needed" a gun to go for a hike).

    Iam not by any means anti-gun, I have qualified "expert" with the "AFOSI issue" 1911 .45acp and M16; and "qualified" with the berretta m9, 12ga, and mp5. I have a decent useable rack in the house.

    A child of the 60's; I grew up on a steady diet of "Rat patrol, 12o'clock high, the man from uncle, I spy, Kojack, Starsky and Hutch and of course The "A" team. I admit I am guilty of attributing guns with magical qualities or associating them with strength and bravery. Their purpose is to launch a projectile; final result being the physical destruction of an object ,animate or inanimate, providing food or preventing injury to ones self....

    I can envision unrest or being assaulted as well as the next monkey....I don't plan to be a victim....but I try to keep things in perspective.

    .22 revolver or auto can make food gathering much more efficient( than throwing sticks and rocks),

    Realizing "food gathering" is last after firstaid/shelter/ warmth/ and water. Its' presence would provide some detterence to 2 leggers, its just ineffective against larger predators or motivatedf 2leggers...the 12 ga provides for food gathering And an effective round against either2 or 4 legged predator. Trapping is really the way to go in an actual do or die situation anyway, it uses fewer calories and works 24/ 7...[rnt]

    I submit"this is all you "need"(for woods range if you're not going to war)...[​IMG]


    Or maybe this one:[​IMG]
     
  7. Blackjack

    Blackjack Monkey+++

    No offense taken Tango...

    But are we talkin about 2 different things here? I had the scenario placed as a future one where society is not quite as "safe" as it is now. If your talkin currrently.... yah, I'd feel totally comfy with that single as a woods companion.


    As for thugs not having affected you, you are lucky.
    A lot of people can say the same, and a lot of people used to be able to say that, but now say nothing.... at all.
     
  8. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    point taken ,perhaps my time is coming when 2 or 3 miscreants decide they not only want my spiffy $30 butane stove but they'd like to use it to brand a gang symbol on my Forehead for resisting...

    Just tossing out armchair rationalizations for thought. Guess pointless armchair internet",what ifs" are just a waste time.

    I' ve never considered carrying a shotgun in the woods except on a deliberate hunting trip....
    thought I might have stumbled on a unique solution to the mundane "kit gun problem"...
     
  9. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    I'm tempted to delete the rant because it is clearly a transparent, lame attempt at justifying the purchase of a particular gun. But I am happy with the actual text, as always comments are encouraged.
     
  10. phishi

    phishi Psy-Ops Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    My father has always considered a Savage 24 and a Browning Hi Power to be all that he needs in a survival situation. The long arm for hunting, and the side arm for defense. Granted he never back packed, but this combo was always with us when we camped. Figured he was never going to be fighting off hordes, and that if he couldn't do it with what he had, he was done for.

    The older I get, the more I am amazed with his insight. Man's a genius......

    phishi
     
  11. BigO01

    BigO01 Monkey+++ Founding Member

    Tango3 I take no offense to your rant but I have unlike you had the occasion to use my weapon to make a few of lifes more unpleasant folks understand that I had no intention of allowing them to have their fun at my expense . I have also had a close friend whom I trusted to not make up stories report of an attack by feral dogs while out Turkey hunting , had he not had a pump shotgun that he was actualy breaking the law with by having the plug removed he may have wound up as dinner for the pack of dogs .

    We unfortuneately live in an entirely different world than our fathers , and even the relaxing trip to the woods for a day backpack or deer hunting scouting trip can easily turn deadly due to the fact that drug dealers often use public and unused private lands to grow their products and wont hesitate to use deadly force to protect them .

    It's your life so you do what you think is right for you . As for me a couple of extra pounds that a solid revolver or 1911 semiauto + a few reloads weighs is no inconvience at all .

    I would rather people think I am paranoid than find my body laying in a ditch decomposing because I didn't burden myself with 3 lbs of weight on my belt .
     
  12. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    Thank you,
    it's real life anecdotes like that that help me make a better decision than my obviously sheltered experience. I have a 4" airweight .38, but would like to upgrade to a 1911 or .357...I realize now I was just trying to justify buying a new toy..This and all the other comments are the kinda input I wanted to hear.I now think I've probably been lucky ...?? :)
    Maybe I can put an 18" bl and pistolgrip on my 870..
    Or just spend more time with the .38( its an aluminum frame model so more than afew +P is iffy)
     
  13. ozarkgoatman

    ozarkgoatman Resident goat herder

    I have a NEF 20ga. and love to hunt with it, but if I thought there might be trouble I would grab the pump or a rifle. Even if you only have one target to shot at everyone misses sometimes [dunno]
     
  14. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    I have one of the NEF 20 ga shottis and for quite some time it was the only shotgun I had, only added a pump because kept either missing or getting bad hits on running coons and opposums and foxes at night that were in the trash or after our critters or for when there was more than 1 to shoot at.

    IMHO if its just for out hikeing in the woods then it with some #2 magnum loads and some slugs on the barrel would take care of most anything you would ever be likely to run into as well as food needs, and with some practice you would be surprised how quick you can reload one. I used to shoot skeet with 2 clays flying with a single shot and hit bost better than half the time before they hit the ground. If it was me personaly (which I also live in a state with conceald carry and have my permit) I would most likely carry the shotti and the .38 and between the 2 I cant really forsee any situation short of total SHTF and/or open combat (as in military action not just thugs) where you would come up short as long as you are capable with the tools you have.

    The NEF I have is the pardner or youth modle and is already nice and short, light weight and very comfortable to carry and I figure if a 20 ga slug wont put it down then Im pretty well screwed regardless of what Im carrying and if got another 5-6 shots from a sidearm before needing to reload then not likely to need any more bullets ever again anyhow. So, even if somewhat of a minority, I dont see it as at all unacceptable especialy for the intended purpose. Most groups of thugs tend to avoid armed prey, especialy if 1 gets shot and if they have a way to escape most animals are that smart as well.
     
  15. andrew414

    andrew414 Howdy.

    [​IMG]
    I've taken duck and rabbit with the Ruger mk2. (For field expedient food). Two clips fit fine where one 1911 mag would go.

    I emptied it into a rabid coon once... I probably didn't need to use the last 6 rounds in the clip, but anyone who's been chased by a rabid animal can attest to the resiliency of those little bastards. A DNR guy wandered by a few minutes later after he hear the shots. After determining that I wasn't a terrorist, he congratulated me on my choice of weapon and reminded me to not bring any big guns out in the woods.... here's why:

    I know what you're thinking. "22LR, That'll never take down a desperate crackhead out in the woods!" But, I'd hate to be the "hostile human party" on the other end of this one. The accuracy is out of this world! With practice, anybody can form complete sentences on paper with this old machine.... at 30 yd. Marksmanship has nothing to do with firepower.

    and...

    Any discharge injury in a remote location with a 1911 or a scatter gun could likely end up in a fatality, whereas a pistol like this is "less" lethal. Proving "intent to defend one's self" in a backwoods courthouse would be a lot easier to do if you didn't use a ton of lethal firepower like a 12ga, .357, or a .45 loaded up with offensive rounds. This is why I only use ball ammo or short shells when carrying open in the field. I leave the +P flying ashtrays and 3" magnum shells at home, where one has a right to ventilate violent assailants with any ammo he or she chooses.

    andrew

    [flag]
     
  16. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    Thats an interesting take, the court argument is a result of our litiginous times; Blood and gore and guts folks will say court should be secondary if your life is truly in danger.Nice handgun...
     
  17. BigO01

    BigO01 Monkey+++ Founding Member

    Well andrew I would say you have a very interesting and Naive view point as to what is and isn't an adequate defensive caliber .

    Unfortunately our being safe is really nothing more than an attempt to control things that are almost completely out of our control by weighing factors that we really have no idea as to the accuracy of the numbers we use to do so .

    How many of us live in homes that are less than 10 years old and have a ton of insurance coverage especially fire insurance when I would bet if you did a study of home fires most happen with homes that exceed 30 years in age . Do you have smoke detectors and perhaps a fire extinguisher or two around the house and maybe even in the car ? What are the true adds of an electrical fire in your home ?

    Do you go swimming in the ocean or even in the river completely unconcerned of being attacked by a shark ?

    Truth is that any of these happening to you is rather improbable imposable NO yet very improbable .

    Will that fact make you feel any better if you are being chewed on by a shark , bear , cougar , pack of dogs or perhaps that rabid raccoon ?

    Do you know how unlikely it was that you saw a rabid animal in the wild ?

    What if it had been a Black Bear with rabies ? You do have them in Wisconsin you know .

    Did you hear about that Hmong up in Wisconsin that killed a bunch of people simply because they told him to get the hell off of their land during deer season a few years back . No doubt the owner of the land simple figured he would yell at the guy and he would leave , little did he know the trespasser would decide to hunt them down and kill them with his SKS .

    The simple fact is life is dangerous and you must take precautions to deal with perhaps sudden life threatening situations . You don't get any warning at all it just explodes in your face .

    You seem to acknowledge this by carrying a gun in the woods yet you carry one that combined with your ammunition is all but completely inadequate in a worst case .

    Your DNA "friend" probably had a gun , was he carrying a 22 ?

    In Missouri they use to carry 357's now they have 40 S&W's and they drive around all day in their trucks while you are in the woods hunting .

    Who do you think has a higher probability of running into a poacher or drug dealer who is growing his pot on the land you hunt because people seldom use it in the summer ?

    Have you ever seen any shows about how much money a Black Bears liver and other parts are worth over seas and how bad poaching is because of it ? Do you not think some slime ball would shoot you because you wandered up on him while he was cutting up a bear that he was going to make over a 100-500 grand on ?

    Life like animals and people is completely unpredictable I intend to be as prepared as I can within reason and my budgetary restraints .

    I wish you well and hope you never have to put down anything more threatening than a raccoon with that pop gun you carry .
     
  18. andrew414

    andrew414 Howdy.

    Geez... Now that I know I can get 500K for a black bear liver, I'll bring my slug gun!

    But seriously, I choose my caliber based on the amount of damage I am willing to inflict. I don't want to kill anyone with a gun, I don't feel that my life is in danger from rabid bears, and I'm not worried about running through someone's jealously guarded hunting ground. If someone attacked me in the field, then yes, I'd shoot them. If I shot them in the face with a 22, do you really think that they would resume attacking me? No, they would fall on the ground and start screaming and bleeding.... this would be more than enough to provide me with a chance to escape.

    If I was concerned enough about my safety, I would bring a weapon and not a tool. a 22lr pistol, while it can be used as a weapon, is primarily a tool in my opinion. This is how I feel that it's an appropriate gun for "backpacker protection". To be honest, if I didn't feel safe enough in the woods to not bring a .357 magnum with offensive rounds, then I would stay home. I would hide under my bed, with a bazooka next to me and claymores in the living room, because I am afraid.

    For instance, there was some guy in AZ that was out hiking. He was carrying a 10mm custom Kimber. A 10MM Kimber has only one purpose, and that's to kill things. Things, mostly human. He had a couple of small unleashed dogs rush him, and he shot them. The owner went berserk on him, and the dude emptied the gun into him, center mass. This is a really crappy situation for both parties. He should have just stayed home if he was that afraid of Golden Retrievers.

    Party A: Dead
    Party B: Convicted of 1st degree murder
    Parties C & D: In puppy heaven

    I feel safe in the woods, in my home, and (almost) everywhere I go. Nobody wants to shoot me, I don't want to shoot anyone.

    Andrew
     
  19. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    Good post andrew guressthats how i feel mostof the time too...
    Its dificult in a macho world where people discuss "needing" a large battlerifle handy to weed the gardento admit to: just seeking to break off the engagement and get out of there.Standing your ground is far more "muy macho". A "shooting incident ( a euphamism for "shooting a person" )is a signifigant enough issue inmy life to pack up the tent,reel in the fishingrod and go home.ordirectlyy to the ranger station or sheriffs office ).
    The famous "Sannow report(?) " everybody always quotes where the25acp has record of 25% one shot stops.versus the .357 125 gr hp having 98%one shot stops are torso hits. Goodpoint I agree I don't want to kill I just want them off me..


    "(Wot the killer backpacker????are you serious, wha's he gonna do; nibble my gorp?????filter my water????pop-popo-pop AAUUGGGHHH Runaway..Runaway...".)
     
  20. BigO01

    BigO01 Monkey+++ Founding Member


    Well gentlemen what you want in a violent attack is about as relevant as the time of day .

    Andrew I would love to see a link to a newspaper or television story on your little diddy about the AZ hiker , first of you take the position that a 10mm Custom Kimber has only one purpose and that is to kill things , especially people .
    What a moronic position to take on a gun board !

    You make an even dumber claim in thinking that someone shot in the face is going to wind up on the ground rolling around screaming especially when shot with a 22 rimfire which is the most ineffective caliber you could possibly use . You refer to handgun ammo as being made for offense , a handgun is defined as a person weapon who's purpose is personal defense . Do you have any knowledge at all of ammunition design ?

    In the AZ story first you say small unleashed and at the end you make reference to Golden Retrievers which was it ? A Golden Retriever isn't even close to being a small dog at adulthood . Then you go on to say the shooter was convicted of first degree murder . If the man was on public land hiking or private land he had permission to be on and was attacked by a pair of dogs and then the owner of said dogs a 1st degree murder charge is complete BULL CRAP .

    1st degree Murder is premeditated , there isn't a state in the union that would even try to bring that charge in such a case .

    I truly doubt this BS incident even happened .

    Quite honestly since the photo you posted is a stock photo straight off of Rugers site I seriously doubt you even own a gun , as you are one of the most ignorant people I have even seen post on a gun board when it comes to anything about them especially the effective use of a self defense weapon .

    Tango I am surprised at you for not seeing all the holes in these BS posts of his .
     
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