Chinese Missile Could Shift Pacific Power

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Brokor, Aug 6, 2010.

  1. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    Link: Chinese missile could shift Pacific power balance - Yahoo! News

    Looks like more of the stage is being set. Now we have ourselves a crucible, folks. If America is weakened further from yet another war -this time with Iran and (possibly) Russia, then what is to become of China?

    An interesting article.
  2. bnmb

    bnmb On Hiatus Banned

    Even more interesting is that Russia and China signed an agreement for close cooperation...I read this couple of weeks ago somewhere...India is next to be included in the agreement...
  3. -06

    -06 Monkey+++

    Several years ago the Chinese ruler stated that war with the US was inevitable because we were natural enemies with diametrically opposed ideologies. I don't see anything that has changed since his statement other than they are much stronger and us weaker. China has bought several subs from Russia and is in a building plan to put the largest navy in the world onto the seas shortly. They are building carriers and many smaller ships to support them. Where do you think all the scrap steel is going????? It is going to come back to us in bullets, bombs, and rockets.
  4. dragonfly

    dragonfly Monkey+++

    What I found "interesting" about this NEWS, was the recent announcement of the military cutbacks being made by the current admin., to "fund" their new programs that they have no funding for...
    Maybe I'm just being paranoid, and just MAYBE this is a way to get that military funding back! Call it: FEAR FACTOR 101!
    Too 'coink-a-dental' for this kid!
    Besides, China loves US! Look at all they export to this country!
    ( I won't mention the loss of money on their loans...)
  5. Seawolf1090

    Seawolf1090 Retired Curmudgeonly IT Monkey Founding Member

    The Chinese won't attack us. They own the US Government back to Slick Willie's days, thru the banksters and Wal-Mart. We are their biggest foreign port, they do far too much business here, including major drug ops that make Colombia look like a neighborhood lemonade stand......
    We know bobo has solid ties to the Communists - and it ain't the Russians......

  6. dragonfly

    dragonfly Monkey+++

    I heard that!
    They LOVE capitalists!
    We'll buy anything!
  7. bnmb

    bnmb On Hiatus Banned

    There's one thing I don't understand...why are Americans so terrified of communists or communism itself?
  8. Clyde

    Clyde Jet Set Tourer Administrator Founding Member

    WTF? Because communism kills. That is it. How is the chinese communist system working? Well, much like the fat pigs in Animal Farm. Many of the military leaders own the industry and are billionaires. How does one have a billionaire in a communist system of equals for the state? Simple. Communism doesn't work. Has never worked and only works on the facade by dictatorial state control of the masses through education and military might. The communist system does not work. IF it did, the Chinese wouldn't have embraced capitalism!
  9. bnmb

    bnmb On Hiatus Banned

    LOL...Communism kills? And capitalism doesn't? Try inserting capitalism in every sentence you wrote...same thing! And btw...China is still communist country...I lived in communism for over 20 years, and we lived much better then we or you live now, in the "capitalism". We had regular salaries, holiday and vacation bonuses, 13th pay, holidays for at least 30 days with 90% paid expenses, free medicare including dental, rock-solid social security and pensions, bank loans that had minimal interests, extreme job security (only way to loose a job was by "trial" from all employees in the company), completely free education, including college, MS and PHD, extremely low unemployment rate, extremely low crime rates, almost no drugs, child support and benefits, fully paid pregnancy and plus 1 year motherhood leave and we LIVED like human beings! We were happy! We didn't care about politics or government, we didn't know who was a minister of what, and we didn't care! EVERY salary was enough to support at least family of 4. We HAD no millionaires, but we all had money! And we were not afraid of anyone or anything!
    So, please, don't tell me what propagandists say...I lived that system, I grew up in that system, and I remember everything perfectly...And i tell my kids now how we lived...You know nothing about communism, at least nothing about Yugoslavia and our life. All you know are the scary stories your billionaires told you to make sure you don't rebel against them and to make you go to Vietnam...

    Sorry for the rant, but such claims just make me angry....
  10. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    I think that was perhaps the most insightful comment ever posted.

    It may have been a little heavy, but I am impressed. Truly.

    From your perspective, or through my own -we both agree that a person inside the system will inevitably be drawn in by it and made to conform to its policies. We can both agree that the illusion created by all governments above anything else, is money.
    1) For the Capitalist it is simple: You are paid a vast amount of money to do whatever you wish; every person can spend until his dreams have all been fulfilled. For $99.99 you too can be a billionaire just like me, call now! Your president always has the answers to your problems and requires taxation to fund war in order to pay for "freedom and equality"...forcing other nations to bend to their will with vicious intent. The goal is a unified world order.
    2) For the Communist it is even easier: Your society is everything you are told it is. The massive government makes no serious mistakes, all they ever do is become a little careless from time to time. I have all the money and wealth that the society I live in gives me, and it always seems like just enough. If I do not feel happy, I will just go see the doctor who gets paid to do nothing. He said this medicine should make me feel better. I feel sleepy. I am so glad this was free medicine I got from the free doctor. Too bad I can't freely dissent if anything goes bad. I really have no say in anything of importance anyway.

    Just because our leadership in America is a Manchurian Candidate and we no longer control the media (I highly doubt we ever did), and due to the fact that most citizens have become little more than entertainment junkies hooked by the mindshare corporate empire of darkness (MCED - I call it to remind me to do a Google search for "Merlin" + "CIA" and see what happens every time -it does not mean (pretty sure that was a run-on sentence) that we are "worse" off than the communist nations as far as liberty or freedom is concerned. I believe it to be a non-issue, really.

    Both types of societies, if taken to the extreme -are quite detrimental. Communism works fine on paper; but its main purpose to exist is to infiltrate existing nations, destroy them from within, only to ultimately suffer from some non-pot smoking tool with a penis size issue wanting to rule the world as a god. In any case, with a "democracy" set up with capitalist backing, will be just as volatile and propose just as lethal a reaction as communist societies. And of course, along comes not one, nor two, but hundreds of non-pot smoking tools with penis size issues who all want MONEY and POWER and WEALTH and FAME and GLORY and IMMORTALITY.

    Human beings are not sensible, and nobody (worth reading) ever said that humanity is entirely logical either.

    There is no sense in arguing varying forms of slavery. You looking back at Yugoslavia before it was transformed, is the very same as modern day Americans complaining about the lost republic and liberty -often times offhandedly over coffee and a paper.

    "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." -Goethe

    The reason I say all of this, is because Communists and capitalists under democracy/socialism are entirely equal and irrelevant. The world will only ever have two choices: true liberty - or true slavery.
  11. bnmb

    bnmb On Hiatus Banned

    It's true that everything taken to the extreme is bad. But it's also true that we lived happily then. We had everything then. All that propaganda about "corrupt communism" is not true! At least it wasn't true in my Yugoslavia, I can't talk about other countries... I'll tell you why. In our society then, general manager was not the god or owner of the company. Officially and legally, workers owned the company! GM, and all others in the administration were elected by all the employees on internal elections from number of candidates. Anyone could sign up for candidate...They all had mandates, 2 years, and then new elections. If he screwed up something, he wouldn't last 2 years...workers would call for meeting, review what happened and vote if he stays GM or not. All companies did that. It was our written right backed by the law! If the GM tried to push the workers around, or threaten them, they call the police, cops investigate, and if true, he goes to jail. If he tries to be funny with ladies, same thing. If worker doesn't want to do his job, he is reprimanded (warned and/or pay cut-off of 10-20%) for 3 times, and after that meeting is called for his dismissal. Everything was transparent. The factories, the roads, buildings, everything was paid by all working people in the country from taxes and government never tried to claim that it was government or state was people's property! Managers couldn't sell machines or old vehicles if it didn't go through the workers representatives. If manager suddenly buys a house or a car, we had a committee that examined his finances in details. If he did something funny, his assets were confiscated and he goes to jail. All these things were real and we lived them, we were not told that it will be like that, it WAS like that. The entire nation paid for the country, government and everything, so the nation was the owner of everything! It was a FAIR society! Disabled people could work (if they wanted) and they had advantage in hiring and could work the hours at will (never 8 hours like rest of us, but 4 or less). And they were paid and plus took disability from state. Other workers never complained about that, we all supported that. We didn't envy each other because we were all in the same boat! As concerning drugs...our doctors then cared much more then now! They tried to do anything else, but give drugs! If we were not happy about something, we did not go to the hospital to get us pumped with drugs. And we were not arrested for being unhappy. Unlike today, we were not afraid from the police or the army! Our doctors and our government wanted us to be and stay healthy, so that those who work, produce and run the economy could continue to do so! All schools and companies had either doctors and dentists on site, or mobile medical services would circle around and give voluntary free health checks. All people, regardless of their employment, age, sex or whatever had unlimited free medicare. All schools, from primary to colleges had obligatory physical education...
    Anyone can say what they want now, but if this was slavery, I'll regret for the rest of my life being "liberated"!
    What I'm writing here is not something I was told, or something I red or heard. I lived this and I know what I'm talking about. Whether you believe me or not, is your choice...
  12. Clyde

    Clyde Jet Set Tourer Administrator Founding Member

    Move to China, Vietnam or North Korea if communism is so great. Hey, it may not be the Yugo version, but its communist. By your standards, you would be much better off.

    I wonder how many people emigrate to these communist countries to become citizens? More or less than those that emigrate to the capitalist facade? That would be a much better standard to determine the quality of the system. The number that want in versus the number that want out.

    As for the system, I saw enough of it in 1989 while I lived in Germany and attended the rallies in East Berlin. I can assure you when I watched a 70 year old man ride his bike across the border form east to west, the communist quality of life was cemented in my mind. He was interviewed by a West German reporter to see if he was coming to emigrate. His response was simple, "No. I am coming to buy 2 oranges." The West German reporter was dumbfounded. Her response was, "What?" He replied, "I haven't had an orange in 40 years and my grandson has never tasted one."

    I walk into my "capitalist" grocery store and can choose from 6 varieties. At the least, everyone was equal in the communist system. No one had oranges (except the leaders).

    Oh the glory days of Lenin, Stalin, and Mao! I'll take the American Revolution and its results over the Bolshevik Revolution each and every day. Lesser of two evils in my mind.
  13. bnmb

    bnmb On Hiatus Banned

    :) I said...and again...I can only talk about how it was in Yugoslavia, not other countries. You can have a choice of 100 different oranges in your store, but if you don't have any money, the one with job and money will buy that 1 orange. And it was not true that only leaders had everything...but if it's easier and comforting for you to think that, OK... I don't know the standards in NC, China or Vietnam (we didn't bomb them), I was talking about what it was like in Yugoslavia and how we lived then.
    For you is shocking and terrible if old man goes to buy oranges, but he has with what to buy them...For me is shocking and terrible if person dies because he has no medical insurance...or if he looses everything he worked for his entire life because he needs an operation...or if he's old and has no pension and no meanings to buy one of those 100's of varieties of whatever...We had no homeless people then and no beggers on the streets! They all had roofs over their heads, food and medicare. THEN! In the rotten and corrupt communism!
    Make no mistake, If I could go back to those days and Yugoslavia, I wouldn't think a second!

    Can you say the same thing about US now? In this wealthy, modern, with 100 varieties society of yours? How many homeless and unemployed you have? How many broke and bankrupt? How many cheated by medicare and insurance companies? How many fired? How many dead for lack of medicare?

    And why are you so hostile on this subject? I didn't attack anyone or anything? I just told how we lived then...did I do something to offend you?
    Anyways, at least I was lucky enough to live in that'll probably never will...

  14. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    Oh no I totally agree with you! I know that from your perspective, life was very good. What I was trying to say (in a round-about fashion), is that you do not have the option to "Opt-out" of communism. You therefore do not have liberty -and that is the essential point at which people become slaves. You were enslaved to a system you enjoyed. That is not necessarily a bad thing, just different. To think, some people in this nation revolted over a tax! Today, there is no limit to what their government can do. Complacency is a terrible thing, my good Slovakian acquaintance. In many other societies, this is going on, but many are willingly enslaved AND miserable. It still isn't freedom -and it isn't liberty.

    I am not faulting you for your honest opinions, Bnmb. I actually quite enjoy them. ;)
  15. Clyde

    Clyde Jet Set Tourer Administrator Founding Member

    Sorry, I find the communist system an abhorrent system. Perhaps the Yugoslavian version was less dictatorial from a state standard, by I will error on the freedom side.

    As for your other points, I don't believe healthcare is a right. I don't believe it is the responsibility of the "masses" to provide this. I don't believe in the socialist model.

    The system which was originally created in the US was founded on a principal of minimal taxation. Today, through 200 years of watering down the original constitutional document, the US has come to look much more like a socialist country. This pains me. Small changes over history have led to great changes today.
    For instance:

    1) To vote, one had to own land. This mean you had a vested interest in the country. Now, you just have to register and vote and the result is people with no vested interest are voting for their benefit

    2) Senators were voted for and appointed by States. This helped to keep state's rights represented in the government. Today these are directly elected just like our house of representatives and has watered down the loyalty to each "state" versus self-preservation in the government. What the founding fathers of this country realized is that true democracy always evolves to anarchy when 50.01% of the people can vote for what 49.99 percent of the populace does not want. That is why it was a representative democracy with its original structure. Year ago the Vice-President was the #2 person elected, not the running mate. All of these changes have made our country less republic and more democratic. It is a misnomer world wide that we are a "democracy". We vote, but we vote for other to vote for us. What you see as our "capitalist society" is not longer capitalist when taxation levels have reached as high as 65% (New York City) in some areas. The income tax began at 1%. How did our country survive on no income taxes until 1918? If one didn't have to pay all the taxes and fees, there would be much less required to survive as well as much less money for the government to grow itself.

    3) The original inflation rate varied, but was minimal until 1913 with the advent of the federal reserve. This entity was created to allow for government debt financing. The result has led to 2,400ish% inflation since 1913. This bank is a tool of the elite who also engineered the rise and fall of the communist nations. Our founders were against a central bank.

    4) We are all being played by our governments. One says you will be taken care of, the other says take care of yourself. Neither is perfect, but the freedom and personal opportunity is greatly diminished in the communist model. There always has to be capitalist economics to support the economy. If it wasn't required, then China would be happy to stay the communist nation it was prior to 1972 when Nixon made it a most favored nation. Since that time, they have realized capitalism is good for their economy and they have learned how to exploit the capitalist markets by offering cheaper goods. This is a basic tenet of John Smith's, Wealth of Nations, as well as international economic theory. The result is the US has become a service/financial economy and China a manufacturing economy. Manufacturing is the heart of capitalism. When communists become capitalists it is a poignant example of which system is better.

    I don't mean to attack you directly and did not mean it to come off that way. I am a student of economics and have studied the various models. Each has their pitfalls, but I would always choose the capitalist pitfalls.

  16. bnmb

    bnmb On Hiatus Banned

    LOL...thanks buddy...I was just telling how it was. True, we didn't have the option to opt-out of communism, but who in the world did? Any capitalist country could suddenly say "we want to be communists tomorrow"? I wasn't really even discussing politics here! I HATE POLITICS AND POLITICIANS! I'm sure that things could be better in US. Why do you think Canada and Australia and Germany are on the top of immigration destinations? And that talk about people from communist countries going to capitalist countries...Is Mexico communist country? ;)
    Anyone knows statistics of how many Chinese immigrate to US...or any other capitalist country?
    No creature on this planet is absolutely free...We are all slaves to something...our way of thinking, our jealousies, our governments, our environment, our bad neighbors....there is always something. But if I was thrown in jail, I'd prefer to be in a cell with all accommodations like in a 5 star hotel, then in small moldy cell sleeping on the cold concrete floor... :D
  17. bnmb

    bnmb On Hiatus Banned

    All is fine hard feelings. The healthcare question...Imagine for a second (but really, try to be in their shoes, honestly) that you or your family is in trouble. Sick kids, no money, need surgery or die situation. Would you or anyone think then that it's or isn't fair? We were taught then, and I'm teaching my kids now, that money is a mean to an end, and not the end. There are, for example, 500 people in this forum, and we form our own "State of Monkey". Some of our members are old, can't work or were scammed by fracking insurance company, and they are in need of drugs or food. Could you really say "frack you, it's not my problem"? I couldn't...
    And if tomorrow you need help, should others say the same to you?
    In my country, now, we have plea's for help, to give donations for sick kids that need surgery abroad....EVERY DAY...literally. And we all give what we can. We have a sort of proverb here: "Somebody is watching from above"! and "Hands that give, do not rot"...Even thou we are 80%
    My point is, if we, as people, as same nation, do not help each other in any way we can, then WHO is going to help us? How are we any different from animals, and we're suppose to be the advanced species, rulers of the Earth? If the state want's to take 5 percent of my salary to insure ALL people have free medicare, I'll be happy to give 10%. Money is just money. A dirty paper with which we buy poisons we don't need, to cure illnesses we don't have,and to live the life we don't like! I'm willing to be slave to family, friends, even my own vices, but I won't accept to be slave to money.
    About voting...I would also disagree..why? If I don't own any land, and I was born in the country, I live, work, pay taxes and die in that country, shouldn't I have the right to vote? Isn't vested interest a lifetime in the country? We all have one life, no trials and no rehearsals...If you invest your life, isn't that as good as piece of dirt?
    You mention central bank...honestly, I'm not aware that any other country in the world has a private bank instead of national central, state governed and controlled bank...I believe that THAT is the real cause of all your problems...

    You say freedom and personal opportunity is diminished in communism...How exactly is that freedom and opportunity diminished? What freedom you have now that we didn't have? What opportunity? If you come from poor family, can you become a doctor? Can you pay for the studies? We had it all for free. My father was surgeon, and he was born in a small and poor village. His parents were illiterate. He walked 10 kilometers to school every day. Then went to university, lived in a student house and finished medical university. What opportunities we are talking about. I can guarantee you, that you had people in US that would be enormous scientists if they could go to college.
    You say that manufacturing is in the heart of capitalism...and communist countries that manufacture anything are capitalist? Can you imagine a scenario or a country that doesn't manufacture anything?
    For example: Yugoslavia manufactured EVERYTHING! Even weapons, cars, jewelery, food, sodas...even oil! Humans started manufacturing things when they become little more than a monkeys, so I'd say that manufacture is in the heart of human kind, no matter of society.
    Clyde, my friend, I know nothing about economics whatsoever...I just go with what I believe is fair and right. I'm probably the only one here that actually lived through both systems. In my mind, there's no contest...

    My friend, you know things you red in the books, and lot of propaganda, but I lived it. I know one thing...then, I wasn't afraid...
    As long as we agree to disagree, we'll always be OK...
  18. Clyde

    Clyde Jet Set Tourer Administrator Founding Member

    Canada, Germany, and Australia are at top immigration destinations because they are below the replacement reproduction level. At an average of less than replacement, these countries have under 2.3 children per household. Once this happens, the only way to replace the populace is to import the "children", ie, easy immigration policies. This is typical of most european countries with Germany and France leading the way with muslim "importation" of immigrants. They only way to sustain the economies is to grow them so they can support the socialist programs.

    So in answer to your question, these countries have high immigration because it is the only way to sustain their future economy. The difference is new populace that has more than 2.3 children per family does not assimilate into the culture and leads to a cultural dilution.

    Why do Mexicans come to the US -- 1) because our country does no have the balls to secure the border, 2) because the socialist system in Mexico has utterly failed partially due to corrupt leader and partially due to the socialist system that does not reward work. We are importing a future problem and the Big O is all for it just like all his predecessors on back to Reagan who granted amnesty. 3) because they are leaving a socialist country for opportunity. What ever that is in their mind, but it must be better than they have in Mexico or they wouldn't come.
  19. bnmb

    bnmb On Hiatus Banned

    Well, if SHTF, everything will be people, no problems... ;
    ) [beer]
  20. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    That's cool man...but I didn't think anybody was attacking you or anything you wrote about. I could be wrong. I am certain that by now bnmb knows how red-blooded American we can all be.

    He isn't looking for people to convert, he's just giving us a glimpse of who he is and what he has experienced. I think that this thread can still be a learning experiment if we didn't use our emotions and patriotism to cloud our better nature.

    *omg I sound like Ghrit.*
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