Christianity = Collaboration

Discussion in 'Faith and Religion' started by TwoCrows, Aug 2, 2012.

  1. TwoCrows

    TwoCrows Monkey++

    Romans 13:1-5
    Obey the government, for God is the one who put it there. All governments have been placed in power by God. So those who refuse to obey the laws of the land are refusing to obey God, and punishment will follow. For the authorities do not frighten people who are doing right, but they frighten those who do wrong. So do what they say and you will get along well. The authorities are sent by God to help you. But if you are doing something wrong, of course you should be afraid, for you will be punished. The authorities are established by God for that very purpose, to punish those who do wrong. So you must obey the government for two reasons: to keep from being punished and to keep a clear conscience.
  2. TailorMadeHell

    TailorMadeHell Lurking Shadow Creature

    I think I'll take my chances.
    jim2 and VisuTrac like this.
  3. TwoCrows

    TwoCrows Monkey++

    That was Hitler's favorite bible passage.

    That is the passage that the Clergy Response Teams used to calm their congregations when the NO-PD and military took their guns during the 2005 test run.

    Many current Christians are so caught up in "These are the End Times, I'll just wait for the Rapture"

    What happened to the kind of pastors who were the Black Robe Regiment ?

    The only thing it takes for evil to win is for good to do nothing.
    (But if good does nothing while evil flourishes, then it is not good but evil)
    jim2 likes this.
  4. TheEconomist

    TheEconomist Creighton Bluejay

    everyone reads it differently. if you read to then end I think it points to a time of awakening that we realize that our government is corrupt and we must understand that the end is near:

    11 Besides, you know the time has come; the moment is here for you to stop sleeping and wake up, because by now our salvation is nearer than when we first began to believe.
    12 The night is nearly over, daylight is on the way; so let us throw off everything that belongs to the darkness and equip ourselves for the light.
    13 Let us live decently, as in the light of day; with no orgies or drunkenness, no promiscuity or licentiousness, and no wrangling or jealousy.
    14 Let your armor be the Lord Jesus Christ, and stop worrying about how your disordered natural inclinations may be fulfilled.

    The three days of darkness will be upon us and the revolution will happen without the faithful having to pick up and fight. The demons from hell will cleans the earth of the unfaithful and there will be a period of peace and prosperity. I think what it is trying to say, in the flavor of bible I read, that when the time comes and the lord has decided that government is corrupt he will cast them out for us and us following their lead up until that time will preserve us for our current purpose.
    Sapper John likes this.
  5. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    They all got liberalized in their Biblical Education..... at Divinity School......
    jim2, VisuTrac and m 99 like this.
  6. m 99

    m 99 Monkey+++

    I am a God fearing man. I believe in the system not the people who are running it. Greed and power are the two worst evil out there. Not trying to start a war on this topic. Just because our so called leaders go to church do they really have God in their heart and soul? No prayer in school, and want to take in God in we trust off our money. Really what was this country founded on. So what about the GSA, the patriot act, clinton gun ban, fast and bin laden, acorn, bay of pigs the list goes on and on. power and greed. Maybe the devil help put some in office also. Just my outlook on this but this is what makes the world go round. If God is in your heart and soul than you know right and wrong. God gave us free will and the goverment is slowy taking away. All we have is each other.
    jim2, tacmotusn and BTPost like this.
  7. TwoCrows

    TwoCrows Monkey++

    I really do not want to start a fight with the Christians on this forum.

    I really DO want to wake them up to the misdirection they are being given. (in my opinion)

    Look around and see, how many will get on their knees and stay there, instead of standing up for what is right ?

    Waiting around for someone to come down out of the clouds did not stop the Redcoats.

    Waiting around for someone to come down out of the clouds did not stop Hitler.
    jim2 and tulianr like this.
  8. TailorMadeHell

    TailorMadeHell Lurking Shadow Creature

    I could go on and on about the Bible and what I think of it. I could go on about religion as well and the preachers/priests/rabbis and any other men who either preach or teach. I will not. I will say that I do not believe in my heart that you should lay down and take what comes because of a book that some men wrote. We were given this thing called common sense and if we choose not to use it, we can't blame anyone. Men are fallible and their translation may be off. Besides, ever played a game called grapevine?
    tulianr and TwoCrows like this.
  9. cdnboy66

    cdnboy66 Monkey++

    it's a funny passage considering that "the government" at the time were responsible for the crucifiction of Christ

    I would be interested to see the original wording used and the sublties of the language it was written in, culturally there will be great significance in the original

    I think it's about interpretation, if, as a Christian, you are lead to interpret a passage a certain way through careful prayer and the willingness to be obedient to the Holy Spirit and you have relationship with GOD, then you are walking in obedience and are safe no matter what the outcome and no matter what the government does.
    This doesn't negate what is written in the word, but it does put some responsibility on the reader to weigh and measure what they are being told through the biblical Word of God and what is happening in the physical world.

    I think when you read this, you may consider that the Jewish history, which heavily influenced the early church, was wrought with such things as slavery and disobedience to a Roman government carried a high price
    Authority is a whole different word than government....just sayin.

    but really, the scripture that we should temper everything with is

    Matthew 6:33
    But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.
    Sapper John and BTPost like this.
  10. Clyde

    Clyde Jet Set Tourer Administrator Founding Member

  11. peanut

    peanut Monkey+

    2 crows, I must ask, and please believe there is no hostility here, if you have a problem with what Christians believe/are doing, why even post in faith/religion? So Hitler quoted a Bible verse, he also loved the occult,was a speed freak, and was into exterminating anyone that didn't fit into his Aryan race. I'm not the best Christian, we all have our shortcomings, and more importantly it is a VERY diverse group, one person not being able to speak for all. I do not trust my government, and I will be the first one holding a gun next to you when the SHTF (if you're not asleep when it happens). IMHO, I do not like the NIV, which is where you pulled your passage. I don't need someone to interpret the Bible for me. If I have a question, I go to the Savior, Himself in prayer. My interpretation of the Bible is obey the government until it conflicts with God's law, and bottom line, I answer to a Higher power. I believe whole-heartedly in that little "book some men wrote," but God Himself gave us all free will and there is NO ONE alive that can take that from me, the US government included. While I love Jesus, I'm not going to be force fed a live chicken at Sunday services. I'm not going to blindly follow someone that happens to know a couple of Bible verses. Satan can quote the Bible verbatim too. You can give a Bible passage to 100 different people, and get 100 different interpretations. Doesn't mean they are all right. There are extremists on all sides, Christian as well. Walking between the government and God is like walking a tight rope at times. I personally am against abortion, view it as murder, but I respect your free will to get one, and quite frankly, it's between you and God, not me, you, and God. I believe in being a good person, law abiding unless it conflicts with what I believe in my soul, but NEVER make the mistake that I am asleep. I've read the back of the Book, I know what's ahead, and I am not afraid. You may not agree with me, you may not like what I have to say, and that's ok, it makes the world go round. It seems as if you are hanging most of your argument on a translation of authority vs. government,(don't know about you, but I am not fluent in ancient languages and there is argument that the particular passage you cited wasn't written by Paul and added later), and if Paul was directing the passage to Jews under Roman rule, or us today, and secondly, that I fear some sort of punishment by my God for not obeying the government. The government is made up of men that are fallible, pretty sure God knows they are not perfect and make some really stupid decisions, don't think I'll get punished for not following said stupid decisions. America is full of sheeple, not just Christian sheeple. Everyone has basic rules laid out for themselves, determining what is right vs. what is wrong. Just because mine happen to be founded in the Bible doesn't mean I'm blind or that I'm not dead accurate at 900 yards.
    tulianr, Sapper John and m 99 like this.
  12. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    This passage has been taken out of context and used to subjugate people since the time of King James. And unfortunately there are even Pastors and Christian leaders today who still teach this misguided view of unquestioned obedience. But it is not what scripture says. You cannot take one verse and look at it and say "Aha, the Bible says this!". You have to look at the whole picture, look at the original language and wording in any questionable verse. Look at who was being addressed and why and when. Here are just a few cut and pastes to illustrate the absurdity of this assumption.

    A father has authority in his home, but does this give him power to abuse his wife and children? Of course not.

    An employer has authority on the job, but does this give him power to control the private lives of his employees? No.

    A pastor has overseer authority in the church, but does this give him power to tell employers in his church how to run their businesses? Of course not.

    All human authority is limited in nature. No man has unlimited authority over the lives of other men. (Lordship and Sovereignty is the exclusive domain of Jesus Christ.)

    By the same token, a civil magistrate has authority in civil matters, but his authority is limited and defined. Observe that Romans Chapter 13 clearly limits the authority of civil government by strictly defining its purpose: "For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil . . . For he is the minister of God to thee for good . . . for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil."

    Notice that civil government must not be a "terror to good works." It has no power or authority to terrorize good works or good people. God never gave it that authority. And any government that oversteps that divine boundary has no divine authority or protection.
    Civil government is a "minister of God to thee for good." It is a not a minister of God for evil. Civil magistrates have a divine duty to "execute wrath upon him that doeth evil." They have no authority to execute wrath upon him that doeth good. None. Zilch. Zero. And anyone who says they do is lying.

    We only need look to the whole of scripture to see what standards we are to aspire to. In what way we are to conduct ourselves.

    Did Elijah violate God's principle of submission to authority when he openly challenged Ahab and Jezebel?

    Did David violate God's principle of submission to authority when he refused to surrender to Saul's troops?

    Did Daniel violate God's principle of submission to authority when he disobeyed the king's law to not pray audibly to God?

    Did the three Hebrew children violate God's principle of submission to authority when they refused to bow to the image of the state?

    Did John the Baptist violate God's principle of submission to authority when he publicly scolded King Herod for his infidelity?

    Did Simon Peter and the other Apostles violate God's principle of submission to authority when they refused to stop preaching on the streets of Jerusalem?

    Did Paul violate God's principle of submission to authority when he refused to obey those authorities who demanded that he abandon his missionary work? In fact, Paul spent almost as much time in jail as he did out of jail.

    Remember that every apostle of Christ (except John) was killed by hostile civil authorities opposed to their endeavors. Christians throughout church history were imprisoned, tortured, or killed by civil authorities of all stripes for refusing to submit to their various laws and prohibitions. Did all of these Christian martyrs violate God's principle of submission to authority?

    So, even the great prophets, apostles, and writers of the Bible (including the writer of Romans Chapter 13) understood that human authority--even civil authority--is limited.

    The following is an excellent summation of how Christians in the US should properly view Romans 13 and how we should apply it to our lives.

    We in the United States of America do not live under a monarchy. We have no king. There is no single governing official in this country. America's "supreme Law" does not rest with any man or any group of men. America's "supreme Law" does not rest with the President, the Congress, or even the Supreme Court. In America, the U.S. Constitution is the "supreme Law of the Land." Under our laws, every governing official publicly promises to submit to the Constitution of the United States. Do readers understand the significance of this distinction? I hope so.
    This means that in America the "higher powers" are not the men who occupy elected office; they are the tenets and principles set forth in the U.S. Constitution. Under our laws and form of government, it is the duty of every citizen, including our elected officials, to obey the U.S. Constitution.
    Therefore, this is how Romans Chapter 13 reads to Americans:
    "Let every soul be subject unto the [U.S. Constitution.] For there is no [Constitution] but of God: the [Constitution] that be [is] ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the [Constitution], resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For [the Constitution is] not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the [Constitution]? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For [the Constitution] is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for [the Constitution] beareth not the sword in vain: for [the Constitution] is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
    For this cause pay ye tribute also: for [the Constitution is] God's minister, attending continually upon this very thing. Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor."
    Dear Christian friend, the above is exactly the proper understanding of our responsibility to civil authority in these United States, as per the teaching of Romans Chapter 13.
    Furthermore, Christians, above all people, should desire that their elected representatives submit to the Constitution, because it is constitutional government that has done more to protect Christian liberty than any governing document ever devised by man.

    As a result, Christians in America (for the most part) have not had to face the painful decision to "obey God rather than men" and defy their civil authorities.
    The problem in America today is that we have allowed our political leaders to violate their oaths of office and to ignore, and blatantly disobey, the "supreme Law of the Land," the U.S. Constitution.
    Therefore, if we truly believe Romans Chapter 13, we will insist and demand that our civil magistrates submit to the U.S. Constitution.

    bfayer, MADAK, tacmotusn and 8 others like this.
  13. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    MinuteMan, That was the best treatise I have read on Romans 13, in my entire life... All I can say is "Well done, and Thank You"
    bfayer and tacmotusn like this.
  14. TailorMadeHell

    TailorMadeHell Lurking Shadow Creature

    I like that. Sheeple come in all ranges. Some blindly follow those who pervert truth whether it's from the Bible or some unscrupulous laws. Those are the ones that I will be having a problem with. The pied piper calls to many groups and like lemmings, they follow. Fanatics just bug me with their blind acceptance of things as the pure gospel. When we stop questioning, we stop learning and when we stop learning, it's time to be dying.
    peanut and Minuteman like this.
  15. Theocrat

    Theocrat Monkey

  16. Chizel21

    Chizel21 Monkey

    Well said

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  17. TwoCrows

    TwoCrows Monkey++

    These are the main points that I had in mind, 200 plus years ago the Christians of the time were willing to fight for their freedom and rights.

    Not be a tool for repression.

    These pastors told their congregations to accept unconstitutional actions as the right of the .gov
    Minuteman likes this.
  18. TwoCrows

    TwoCrows Monkey++

    When the Roman Emperor became the bishop of Rome and thus the highest bishop in the church at the time he had great influence on what was included in the text of the bible.

    There are people who claim that Paul was a Roman agent, after all the Empire was not going to allow an independent death squad to cross borders from one Roman territory to another to kill Roman subjects, which is what Paul had been doing before he was converted.
  19. Clyde

    Clyde Jet Set Tourer Administrator Founding Member

    From what source are you getting your information?
  20. cdnboy66

    cdnboy66 Monkey++

    It always amazes me how much credence we as humans, give to the power of a single man at any point in history, and fail to recognize or negate the incredible and unknowable omnipotent power of the GOD who created us.
    we believe that a man can influence the word of God more than God can.......didn't Nebachanezzer wind up walking in the wilds as an animal does after believing himself to be God like,

    God wants you to know the truth, he is not a conspiracy and if you seek him, he will meet you where you are and walk with you.
    Then, as you walk and talk with him he will prompt you to seek discernment and as you grow in him, he will grant you wisdom.
    That wisdom will allow you to understand that he is beyond our comprehension

    Peace to you my brother, my Father seeks you
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