Civil Discussion

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Motomom34, Sep 22, 2017.

  1. RightHand

    RightHand Maslow's Contradiction Moderator Founding Member

  2. duane

    duane Monkey+++

    I blame a lot of it on the deteriorating educational system. 70 years ago in a 1 room school house with no running water or central heat and out door toilets, we were taught "debate" and introduced to it at the 3 rd grade level. We were given a subject, prepared for it, and until we stood up, didn't know which side we were to defend. I don't know about anyone else, but it influenced the way I view the topics that occur in life. The subjects we were taught were based on the classics, and though my grand father said they were dumbed down, we read the translations and not the Latin, much of our education was at least based on literature and poetry. Everyone I knew as a child had a common educational viewpoint and while there were vigorous political and other arguments, they were civil. I will admit that the education I received was "white European based" and was defined by the scores you achieved on your work and what you were taught and how far you went was based on your abilities, not the lowest common denominator. I got hooked on Frost, Whitman, Longfellow, etc in about the 4 th grade and never looked back. I saw a Moslem black woman activist screaming on tv today about how horrible things were in the US and how we had to change our culture and all I could think of was how well she would have fared as a Christian woman speaking like that in Mecca, the religious center of her religion. Couldn't happen, only true believers are allowed to enter Mecca and if the mob doesn't stone you for blasphemy, you will be immediately deported.
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2017
    Motomom34 and RightHand like this.
  3. RightHand

    RightHand Maslow's Contradiction Moderator Founding Member

    Like you, I grew up in an educational system that used debate as a tool of learning. In addition, my family had nightly discussion of world events and, due to age and experience between the parents and my brother and I, debate was the frequent vehicle for the discussion. We learned to question everything and then defend our conclusions. Because we lived in many countries and in many places around the country, we were able to witness different cultures and local standards. What a wonderful way it was to learn.
  4. M118LR

    M118LR Caution: Does not play well with others.

    Many of the rules of Civil Conversation are already obsolete when typing. One must allow another to finish a complete discourse without interruption. Even Bold Italics aren't any louder than normal type. It is rather easy to stick to the point of debate (or relevant subsequent affects), without name calling etc... The most difficult part of internet communication is relaying the message in a manor that allows the reader to perceive/comprehend what you are attempting to debate.
    When it comes to face to face conversation: I once had a woman screaming at me that she had the right to freedom of speech and could use any words at any level of volume because it was a Constitutional Right! So I very softly explained to her that I had the Constitutional Right to Bear Arms. Suddenly the entire conversation became Civil. Wonder why?
    techsar and Seawolf1090 like this.
  5. RightHand

    RightHand Maslow's Contradiction Moderator Founding Member

    Its also important to know when to walk away from what will turn into an adversarial situation. Some people just have to have the last word. I hope not to be one of them
  6. M118LR

    M118LR Caution: Does not play well with others.

    Actions have always spoke louder than words. JMHO.
    GrayGhost likes this.
  7. Motomom34

    Motomom34 Monkey+++

    Sometimes I think people do not know the meaning of civil. Often I wonder if the definition has changed. Like other words, with time they change. My Grandma use to say people were gay. She meant they were happy but try calling someone gay today, it may not go over as a compliment. She also used to say the neighbor kid was queer acting but she just meant strange. Civil discourse is an old fashion term. So saying both sides need to want to be civil, one must understand what civil means.
  8. Asia-Off-Grid

    Asia-Off-Grid RIP 11-8-2018

    "We're here to preserve democracy, not practice it." - by Captain Ramsey, "Crimson Tide" (1995)
    Yard Dart likes this.
  9. duane

    duane Monkey+++

    Seems like to many people, for whatever reason, are trying to put lipstick on a pig, it doesn't make the pig any prettier and the pig may not like it. I find that the facts do not support many of the proposals being made and when I try to ask for information to find the errors in my reasoning, I am called all kinds of names and attacked, but receive no information.
  10. Asia-Off-Grid

    Asia-Off-Grid RIP 11-8-2018

    I have run online forums for many years. This one is one of the more open, freedom of speech forums I have had the pleasure of being a part of. Still, I feel people sometimes cross the line in things they post. Since becoming a member here, there has only been one member, whom I have had any extended issues with. Aside from that, I would like to think I get along, pretty well, with everyone.

    On my personally owned forums, my rules are much more strict than here. I only allow limited freedom of speech. The reason being, while many can self moderate on a smaller scale, when the population grows on those such forums, someone decides they want to cross the line, whether by personal attack or other unnecessary statements. Maybe it works better here, because more folks are of a like mind? Not sure, honestly. I know I have gotten far too many keyboard commandos on my sites, over the years. I never minded showing them the door. Even had one guy who was the single largest donor ever, on the site. He thought his donations would make him impervious to banning. He found out otherwise. I have banned personal friends from my sites, guys I have known for years. With me, it wasn't personal. I chose to run my forums a given way and would not deviate from that.

    With that said, many times in the past, when a member was banned by staff, those who came to me directly would often ask that I look into the issue. Quite often, it was something that could be sorted, and was, by me personally. I have tried to be fair and impartial to members of my sites.

    Now, all of you just shut up. :D
    GrayGhost, Yard Dart and RightHand like this.
  11. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart Snow Monkey Moderator

    I am also a product of that White US Education system of the 50s & 60s.... I am greatful that I was taught how to LEARN... I spent many hours in the Engineering Library at the U of W, a two hour bus ride, from my home... as a Jr. High Schooler... Taught myself Chemistry & Chemical Engineering, before I was even in High School... In High School, I was invisible, to most of my Age- mates, had few friends, and those I did have were two years older... I had a few friends on Ham Radio, but like the Internet, today, I had never actually met them... I always had an after school Job, of some kind, and earned my own money... Paper Route, Apprentise Mucker/Driller/Blaster, a Glass Container Packer.. (Glass Bottle & Blowers Union) and Machinist Helper... Learned each industry, and job, from doing, watching, and asking Questions... When I was 18, I took the State Blasters License Test, passed it and put myself thru college, working as a PowderMan on Road Construction Jobs on weekends... Spent my College Education learning the technical information, of which the Basics I had learned in Jr. High School... Was a Research Assitant to my Advisor, on a DuPont Grant... when college was finished, I was burned out, and my Partner and I left civilization, for a couple of years, roaming the North Cascades...I learned much of my Bush Living Skills during those years, and when we returned to civilization, I started my Hippy Commune years... which taught me about relationships with a Female, which I still do NOT fully understand... but when my first love left me, I learned the concept of abject Failure.. and started my Adult Life, over from scratch... I was married within 6 months, to AlaskaChick, and the rest of my life is History... Although I was brought up in an upper Middle Class Family, both my parents were College Graduates, I worked and learned most everything, on my own... and with the help of GREAT TEACHERS... I doubt that such Teachers are available in our Modern Education System, these days...
  12. DarkLight

    DarkLight Live Long and Prosper - On Hiatus Site Supporter

    In my experience, if you are truly willing to start with discourse, the civility follows naturally. This is what is lacking today. Too few are interested in discourse or discussion, or even debate. More often than not it's about pontificating and getting validation.

    I can't even blame it on the media or politicians, although they are contributing factors to be sure. It is a personal decision and as such, ultimately personal responsibility.

    I admit there are things I have a hard time discussing, and so civil discourse is difficult and I fall victim to incivility. Other times, I enjoy the process even if I'm diametrically or violently opposed to the contrary stance.

    I can not say with any certainty that I have ever had a civil argument. I know for a fact, that I have never been on the receiving end of a diatribe or rant or vent against or about something I agree with or hold dear that was civil.
    GrayGhost and RightHand like this.
  13. RightHand

    RightHand Maslow's Contradiction Moderator Founding Member

    Maybe we should have a forum called "Just blowing Off Steam" No replies allowed [reddevil]
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  14. Itchba

    Itchba Monkey

    I'm not sure I argree with this as a valid hypothesis. Some people fall into this, but not all people that are insecure in their personal lives are like this. And some people I have seen act this way do so out of an overblown ego. Seems the ones that irritate me the most are the one that think they can't be wrong so they refuse to listen to other points of view.

    I have a dear friend that has this problem. The trouble is he is almost always right. He also spends a lot of time with idiots that drive him batty! That bleeds over into his off time. He can see reason if you present it correctly, it just takes time. And never from direct confrontation.
    chelloveck likes this.
  15. Seawolf1090

    Seawolf1090 Retired Curmudgeonly IT Monkey Founding Member

    Some other forums I am on have special subforums for the more controversial issues, called things like "The Minefield", "The Powderkeg", etc. Still, basic rules of decency apply. It is very bad form to flame someone or insult them, etc.
    Yard Dart likes this.
  16. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    We have the inferno for that sort of thing. The rules are slightly looser, but still apply. Rants welcome, and if you really don't want a response, ask a staffie to lock the thread.
    GrayGhost likes this.
  17. Airtime

    Airtime Monkey+++

    In my experience having debates with liberals there are several key rules.
    1. Unless you know the topic in detail, just don't debate that. Never argue or debate something unless you are certain you know far more than your opponent.
    2. You need to study and equip yourself with details and statistics with the source so you can answer question 1 in the affirmative.
    3. When debating, you must stay very calm and low key. Seldom make statements, rather ask them lots of questions that walk them to a logical conclusion that is not their starting point but is yours.

    This takes practice and study. Watch some YouTube videos by Ben Shapiro, D'nesh D'sousa, and the like. Take notes, memorize their facts and the sources. Study the books of Mark Levin and other.

    So, for example, when they comment that Trump is anti-immigrant, ask, "what makes you think that?" If you get a reply he hates people from other countries that aren't just like him, then calmly ask, "If he hates immigrants so much, why did he marry one? Why had he hired immigrants in his casinos, " They won't have a good answer. When debating welfare ask, who has welfare or socialist policies even lifted out of poverty? You'll get an answer that it has helped millions, but ask them, was that tge question? The question is how many and who has ever been lifted up out if poverty by those programs? They may give names and examples but they will always be stories of people succeeding in a capitalistic way. Point that out.

    This is hard and requires practice and preparation to be good. Understand and remember you can never convince them of the legitimacy of your position. But with enough challenging questions you can get them to wonder about their own position. That is the win. Only then do you start getting them to see another perspective.
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2017
  18. chelloveck

    chelloveck Diabolus Causidicus

    I agree that it's worth learning from those who are effective at debating, though I'm not so sure that Shapiro or D'Sousa are stellar examples to learn from.

    Zinnia Jones, is, however, worth learning from...

    Reason and rational arguments.........using deductive arguments

    and inductive and abductive arguments

    Last edited: Sep 23, 2017
  19. GrayGhost

    GrayGhost Monkey++

    You can lead a horse to water, but that won't make 'em a duck.

    Personally, I've never used the 'ignore' feature. Reading or listening will give you insight as to the type of person you are dealing with. I subscribe to the "live and let live" philosophy, and consequently, am never out to change anyone's mind. If someone want to live an illogical and irrational life, so be it. I have absolutely no problem walking away from a conversation.
  20. RightHand

    RightHand Maslow's Contradiction Moderator Founding Member

    For some people, its more important to them that other people see them as "right" rather than accepting that what I believe matters only to me.
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